I've been power leveling my Juggernaut to level 55 so I could explore a problem. Is the 2pc PVP Vindicator set bonus (+8% self-healing every time a Juggernaut uses Intercede, 20 sec cd) better than the 4pc PVE War Leader set bonus (+20% strength to Force Scream's Sonic Barrier, 12 sec cd)?

The answer I found was that yes, the 2pc Vindicator PVP set bonus gives better DTPS - HPS. I am posting this here for review by more scrutinous people, but honestly I think it's pretty intuitive: you're losing 20% of Sonic Barrier's effect and gaining significant healing.

I'm by no means certain that this is correct; I'll address some problems that I see with my own model at the bottom of this post, and I'm open to correction. If this thread exceeds 3 pages, look at my second post in this thread. I may post a table of contents of things that I felt really contributed to the discussion.

To build a model of this problem I first had to understand Sonic Barrier. I concluded that it gives 539 + force bonus * 0.7182 blockage on usage.

Raw data				

melee bonus	379.9	361.8	343.7	
force bonus		613.6	595.5	577.4	
healing bonus	421.4	408.8	396.1	

blocked	979	967	954	
	980	966	954	
	979	966	954	

Rewritten data				
force bonus	blocked			
independent	dependent			
x		y			
613.6	980			
595.5	967			
577.4	954			

no shield offhand; no need to correct for shield/abs				
assume post-mitigation damage; no need to correct for damage reduction from armor				
crushing blow was not up; no need to correct for damage reduction				
test: see if bonus is still predicted with the +3% from crushing blow				

c = (y2-y1)/(x2-x1)			c		
(980-967)/(613.6-595.5)		0.7182320442		
(980-954)/(613.6-577.4)		0.7182320442		
(967-954)/(595.5-577.4)		0.7182320442		

If 980 = 0.7182*613.6 + b				
b = 	539.31248			

general equation 'blocked damage = b + c*force bonus damage'
			predicted		actual
539 + 0.72*613.6		980.792		980
539 + 0.72*595.5		967.76		966
539 + 0.72*577.4		954.728		954

After collecting data for Sonic Barrier's behavior, I calculated my expected damage from a boss who does 4500 pre-mitigation melee kinetic damage per second. In all my calculations I calculated my mitigation pool, rounded it down to the nearest hundred, applied KBN's advised distribution, then dumped any remaining points into defense. I assumed a 25 sec effective cooldown on Intercede and a 13 sec effective cooldown on Force Scream.

Results:

• Standard model had 1243 DTPS - HPS. This model is one where intercede is not used, Force Scream has its 20% absorption bonus, all gear is mitigation-heavy, and all armorings are level 72. EDIT: Image is slightly incorrect. I forgot to actually apply the 20% absorption bonus to Scream. Revised Scream HPS is 109.92 and revised DTPS - HPS is 1243.07
  
• Taking only the 2pc Vindicator set bonus gave 1185 DTPS - HPS. The only difference between this gear loadout and the previous/standard one is two level 72 tank armorings were replaced with level 63 Vindicator armorings, and their resulting changes to armor, strength, endurance, Sonic Barrier absorption, and Intercede's HPS were applied.
  
• Taking the 2pc Vindicator set bonus and changing 5 high-mitigation mods for high-endurance mods gave 1186 DTPS - HPS. I examined the results of exchanging tier 31 mitigation-heavy mods (69 str, 52 end, 57 def/abs) for endurance-heavy mods (57 str, 74 end, 46 def/abs) and as we can see, the resulting DTPS was almost identical to that gotten with a similar but mitigation-heavy loadout
  
• Encouraged by the near-identical performance of endurance mods, I examined the outcome when replacing all mitigation augments with endurance augments and keeping 5 endurance mods. The result was not promising: Stacking endurance gave 1229.10 DTPS - HPS
  
• And finally... remember how Assassins benefit the most from increased endurance and Juggernauts benefit the most from increased power? I simulated the results of applying 14 power augs in addition to wearing 5 endurance mods and found that I'd take 1232 DTPS - HPS
  

Problems and notes:

I think the problem isn't one of math, but one of useability. I don't remember the last time I've used intercede in PvE.

Now even if we worked it into the rotation (can be done), you have to work in positioning. Aka Frontals. You'll end up haveing to keep a dps in the cone (yes I know not all bosses have this) or turn the mob to the raid.

I'd have to agree - honestly, this seems like one of those situations where the math supports it, but the reality doesn't. If you're main-tanking and jumping to somebody, the boss turns with you, which is often not a great option. You could perhaps jump to the off-tank, but then you both take (probably small) incidental damage that otherwise only you would take.

Can you perhaps do a ballpark to factor that in? Given the boss will probably get anywhere from 1-3 attacks off while you get back in position, does potential cleave/AOE damage to other members of the party negate the fact that you're reducing the damage to yourself?

I use intercede on Styrak every time he does a force pull (which actually throws you). Given that you just spent some time in the exhaustion zone you'll be down some health so it wouldn't be 'wasted' if you will. I can see the possibility on Thrasher too when jumping down from tanking the snipers. Similarly when tanking Tu'chuk this has possibilities; though no guarantee that you'll need a heal at the time you use intercede. Other fights may have some potential as well.

I don't think these situations are enough to warrant using the vindicator set bonus but it's food for thought.

I have parsed 3 HM FPs and got decent usage on Intercede, or ~70 to 100 HPS. I had a bad run in HM SNV and in those fights I got an effective cooldown of approximately 50 seconds, or double what I predicted. That gave 60 HPS at 34000 HP. It's still far better than the extra 20 HPS that the 4pc PVE tank set would give.

Once I can get some good full clears of HM SNV/TFB with a better co-tank I'll post full parses.

For now here are the backing logs from which I drew my HM FP data: parse one and parse two. The +8% hp from Intercede actually doesn't have an ability name recognized by Torparse, so in the "heals given" section it's just the blank line.

I think the problem isn't one of math, but one of useability. I don't remember the last time I've used intercede in PvE.

Are you doing NiM operations? I never used Intercede until I started doing NiM, and now I use Intercede quite often. Due to DPS checks and tight enrage timers, DPS tends to go all out. Since you can only guard 2 DPS in a raid group, I have to Intercede the third one to lower aggro. Another example is Kephess NiM - I force charge the orb and intercede to the one targeted by the lightning, thus getting back to Kephess faster and reducing the damage taken by the player targeted.

That said, I don't think it's viable to sacrifice the 4set PVE bonus for the PVP one.

Normally I am against necro'ing a post but in this case I make a difference.

If I understand this post correctly the 2-piece PvP setbonus was worth it in 72 gear assuming you could intercede almost off cd.

My question is, would this also be the case in 78 gear. And how much can you delay interceding to make it still worthwhile? We all know that Bladestorm can be safely used off cd while interceding sometimes needs to be delayed.

Practical use in DF / DP:

Nevra - no brainer, use it on your co-tank. Should also be possible in NiM

Draxus - maintanking draxus is tricky. You can use it but only after a surpressive fire. I don't think he has more conal AoE's?

Grobbie - Useable but needs to be delayed till after a roar. On NiM i'm not sure if you want to 'waste' your leap for it since you kinda need it for tankswapping.

Czero - Easely useable on co-tank when there are no adds

Brontes - difficult to use I fear. Only useable in phase 2 and maybe 4 (phase 4 might be to chaotic to use it off cd)

Bestia - Easely useable

Draxus - Easely useable

Calphy - Easely useable altough the debuff can be tricky since you don't want to have 2 tanks with inevitable

Raptus - Easely useable if your co-tank tauntfluffs with you. Else he might have issues remaining 2nd in the aggrotable

Council - Easely useable

In short I see many possibilities for interceding in DF and DP HM/NiM. Question remains ofc where the breakeven point is. Also using PvP-armorings will lower your DR by quite an amount i fear?

Hope that you can shed some light on this MGN (or anyone else )

Normally I am against necro'ing a post but in this case I make a difference.

 

If I understand this post correctly the 2-piece PvP setbonus was worth it in 72 gear assuming you could intercede almost off cd.

My question is, would this also be the case in 78 gear. And how much can you delay interceding to make it still worthwhile? We all know that Bladestorm can be safely used off cd while interceding sometimes needs to be delayed.

 

Practical use in DF / DP:

Nevra - no brainer, use it on your co-tank. Should also be possible in NiM

Draxus - maintanking draxus is tricky. You can use it but only after a surpressive fire. I don't think he has more conal AoE's?

Grobbie - Useable but needs to be delayed till after a roar. On NiM i'm not sure if you want to 'waste' your leap for it since you kinda need it for tankswapping.

Czero - Easely useable on co-tank when there are no adds

Brontes - difficult to use I fear. Only useable in phase 2 and maybe 4 (phase 4 might be to chaotic to use it off cd)

 

Bestia - Easely useable

Draxus - Easely useable

Calphy - Easely useable altough the debuff can be tricky since you don't want to have 2 tanks with inevitable

Raptus - Easely useable if your co-tank tauntfluffs with you. Else he might have issues remaining 2nd in the aggrotable

Council - Easely useable

 

In short I see many possibilities for interceding in DF and DP HM/NiM. Question remains ofc where the breakeven point is. Also using PvP-armorings will lower your DR by quite an amount i fear?

Hope that you can shed some light on this MGN (or anyone else )

Well with the new focused defense its probably better to use the 78 armorings and go with the set bonus (and as I said in the other thread, more strength + power). With that said, heres where intercede should be used if you have the heal on leap:

Nefra NiM: Use on co-tank right after taunting nefra when doing the tank swap. Heals you, gives damage reduction, puts you on the top of the threat table and prevents the other tank from maybe stealing threat back.

Draxus: Use right after he lobs a corrosive grenade. He threat drops, and if you have target of target on, you can intercede to his new target, then reselect draxus and leap right on back to take the culls

Grob'thok: Right after a roar on Grob'thok's new target unless its you. If it is you, pick the closest target to grob'thok, or a healer.

Corruptor Zero: Other tank right after taunting C-Zero

Brontes: Whenever there is a tank swap

Bestia: Whenever there is a tank swap

Tyrans: When you need to dump singularity in a random place. While the NiM Mechanic is in place, can also use it to leap to someone on the floor to heal yourself and avoid fall damage when you get Deathmarked.

Calphayus: Use it on the crystal in phase 1 past, not sure for future. Phase 2, use it on random DPS whenever you need healing. Otherwise, use it on any high-threat DPS to stop them from pulling threat.

Raptus: If 2 tanks get into the tank challenge, use it on the other tank. Also use it to get back into the fight if you got teleported to the bridge or thrown back too far to just leap.

Dread Council: Use on tank swaps. Also use it in the final phase on your strongest AoE healer to make them tougher while the council fails at killing everybody.

Normally I am against necro'ing a post but in this case I make a difference.

 

If I understand this post correctly the 2-piece PvP setbonus was worth it in 72 gear assuming you could intercede almost off cd.

My question is, would this also be the case in 78 gear. And how much can you delay interceding to make it still worthwhile? We all know that Bladestorm can be safely used off cd while interceding sometimes needs to be delayed.

The general idea is that if you can Intercede once / minute, you'll probably get more healing/second from the 2pc PVP set bonus than the 4pc PVE set bonus.

Here's some napkin math: Intercede's 2pc PVP set bonus contribution is +~0.08*1.01*hp/effective cooldown HPS. For example if your Juggernaut has 40,000 hp and uses Intercede once / minute you'll be getting 0.08*1.01*40000/60 = 53 healing/second. Upgrading Force Scream to the 4pc absorb bubble will only increase ~120 HPS from Force Scream to ~150, or an increase of 30 HPS. This is assuming ideal Force Scream conditions and terrible Intercede conditions; on fights where you can use Intercede on close to cooldown, it'll give amazing performance. If I wanted to be alarmist I would advertise this as (0.08*1.01*45000/25)/(120*1.2-120) = 606% better performance with the 2pc PVP set bonus rather than 4pc PVE.

This is only Intercede HPS vs Force Scream HPS. The decrease in armor is definitely a factor. I don't play enough and certainly not on my Juggernaut in NIM enough to know whether the decrease in armor is significant. I also don't know the NIM 8man DTPS distributions, which is the biggest factor in determining how armor affects DTPS. Since HP is only moving up for BIS Juggs from ~41000 to maybe 42000 in better gear now, and since NIM damage usually is around 130% of HM damage, the increase in damage is reduced more by higher armor than by the 2pc PVP set bonus since the 2pc PVP set bonus doesn't scale with DTPS. I believe BiS PVP gear is still level 65, while BiS PVE gear is now level 81 or so. That hurts the Juggernaut 2pc PVP bonus even more.

My advice would be to not use the 2pc PVP armorings in high DTPS fights. This is basically Nefra and possibly Brontes. Whereas on Draxus, Grob'Thok, and Corruptor Zero Intercede's self-healing would probably be a boon rather than a hindrance.

As always, the facts trump theory. Hope to see some more rigorously collected data. Unfortunately my Imp guild does not raid.