Yeah I made the same decision on a few of my characters since I havn't even met the other characters that my character was going to run into. Plus the female Sith Inquisitor romance is lightside any my sith inquisitor is darkside so it'd be too late to try and turn lightside now lol.

I just finished the main Smuggler story today (with my female Chiss Scoundrel Zavi), and have been conversing with Risha whenever I can. Mostly because I was interested to see where her story was going, and partially because if I ever decide to write fanfiction I needed to have a better idea of what she was like. I'm going to have to look up her storyline with a male smuggler on YouTube just to see how the romance pans out - I suppose I could play through as a male smuggler, but I can't bring myself to do that, as a) I have a very difficult time relating to male characters and b) I just went through a marathon effort to get Zavi up to and doing Makeb. (She finished Corellia at level 53, and is still having problems with Makeb. I'm putting it down to gear, which is all mostly orange modded with blue ~level 50 mods. *sigh*)

I don't think there's anything stopping a LS Character romancing a DS Companion and vice versa. Though I suppose with the SW companion Jaesa, that might be more difficult.

Because someone could just as easily say there isn't in a /FICTIONAL/ setting. FICTIONAL. Let me say it again, because obviously you don't get this aspect when you ask this question...FICTIONAL.

What are you even saying here..?

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.

Just going to say this, I find it extremely sad that Interesting NPCs a mod for Skyrim that introduces deeper character conversation and personality, has a FAR superior romance line than SWTOR has, in every possible way.

Come on BiOWare what happened to being at the forefront of epic storytelling.

What are you even saying here..?

 

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

 

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

 

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.

I think it's because you began your argument from the realism perspective. What (I think) SK is saying is that there's no reason that realism has to apply in a fictional setting, especially a science fiction/fantasy setting - if a writer decided to write a world that specifically excluded homosexuality (as in, it doesn't exist at all within the context that world), then they could. This applies vice versa too - worlds where one gender has died out (for example) so relationships are strictly homosexual, or worlds where the norm is to be bisexual and exclusive attraction to one gender or the another is viewed as odd, and so on and so forth.

But that doesn't apply to the SW universe, because there are sources to show that homosexuality does exist within the context of AGFFA.

What are you even saying here..?

 

I obviously get that it's fictional. I also clearly see that in the Star Wars IP and EU there is absolutely nothing to suggest that homosexual relationships don't go on. In fact to the contrary we have some instances of them blatantly happening.

 

So, does that not clearly explain why I can't see how this needs a debate?

 

As to the discussion on when/how, I wasn't responding to that. Just the fact that there was a ever a debate in the first place.

There are same gender romances on Earth, in real life. We're discussing an entire galaxy (with humans in it, as well as a ruling crime family of hermaphrodites...) so why would there not be same gender flings?

As said by you. The point wasn't a debate. The point was this comment is just plain wrong. And obviously you didn't read the rest of my post you saw that I said you were wrong (which you were), and thought it was a debate.

Just because a fictional universe has an entire galaxy with humans in it, doesn't mean there has to be same gender flings.

But yes, SW has 1 or 2 mentioned in all the many characters it's mentioned in it's long history.

I think it's because you began your argument from the realism perspective. What (I think) SK is saying is that there's no reason that realism has to apply in a fictional setting, especially a science fiction/fantasy setting - if a writer decided to write a world that specifically excluded homosexuality (as in, it doesn't exist at all within the context that world), then they could. This applies vice versa too - worlds where one gender has died out (for example) so relationships are strictly homosexual, or worlds where the norm is to be bisexual and exclusive attraction to one gender or the another is viewed as odd, and so on and so forth.

 

But that doesn't apply to the SW universe, because there are sources to show that homosexuality does exist within the context of AGFFA.

Sliders (some may not know of or remember the show) did an episode like that. Few remaining men regulated to helping populate and being kept in basically concentration camps, and most of the women becoming lesbian, because meeting men wasn't an option.

SithKoriandr, (love the name by the way. Really hoping it's a Starfire reference).

You are right. If a creator decides not to include a minority (or majority) in their universe that is entirely their choice. The post I made before regarding the realism argument was a response to someone else's point that the lore of Star Wars does not allow for Homosexuality or Bisexuality. I was more trying to make the point that just because it has not happened (or rather has not been focused on, there are examples of SGR within SW), does not mean that SGR can't be added or further highlighted.

This argument, of course, bars the notion that George Lucas (or now Disney) says "No SGR in my galaxy" They own the rights to the lore, they can say that. However, I would personally classify an announcement like that as heavily biased if not outright discriminatory.

A blanket "There is no X Y or Z in my universe because I said so" when the exclusion of that group does not have relevance to the plot (Sliders, for example), is something I would consider discriminatory. However, authors can be discriminatory, if they want.

I do not think proponents of the addition of SGR companions are upset at their exclusion because they feel entitled to SGR options, (or if any of us do it is not the bulwark of our argument). Rather, they are upset because SGR was supposed to be included and has been continually dropped.

My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".

SithKoriandr, (love the name by the way. Really hoping it's a Starfire reference).

It is

You are right. If a creator decides not to include a minority (or majority) in their universe that is entirely their choice. The post I made before regarding the realism argument was a response to someone else's point that the lore of Star Wars does not allow for Homosexuality or Bisexuality. I was more trying to make the point that just because it has not happened (or rather has not been focused on, there are examples of SGR within SW), does not mean that SGR can't be added or further highlighted.

 

This argument, of course, bars the notion that George Lucas (or now Disney) says "No SGR in my galaxy" They own the rights to the lore, they can say that. However, I would personally classify an announcement like that as heavily biased if not outright discriminatory.

 

A blanket "There is no X Y or Z in my universe because I said so" when the exclusion of that group does not have relevance to the plot (Sliders, for example), is something I would consider discriminatory. However, authors can be discriminatory, if they want.

 

I do not think proponents of the addition of SGR companions are upset at their exclusion because they feel entitled to SGR options, (or if any of us do it is not the bulwark of our argument). Rather, they are upset because SGR was supposed to be included and has been continually dropped.

It has been in the EU lore. Though there's nothing to say it was supposed to be included. In fact, it was never even in any beta build. However, when they said they'd add it later, people were expecting more than what we got in Makeb.

My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

 

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".

My only point was, in a fictional universe, not of our creation, RL shouldn't be a factor. If we said allow RL to rule what could be included or should be included, this would be a M rated game (this isn't saying SGR would make the game M rated...just that putting things into the game because RL has such things would).

Also, I never cared for the idea of trying to suggest that a creators idea should be forcibly decided for them by others just because they think it should be some way.

Though even if Disney decided "No Gays in SW" I doubt they'd say it due to obvious media backlash.

Also, I'd disagree that there being SGR in game would be a forgone conclusion. But I'm of the notion that just because other BW games have it, doesn't mean I expect it from all their games. I just think that's the silliest thing to do, expect something because other products have it.

My only point was, in a fictional universe, not of our creation, RL shouldn't be a factor. If we said allow RL to rule what could be included or should be included, this would be a M rated game (this isn't saying SGR would make the game M rated...just that putting things into the game because RL has such things would).

 

Also, I never cared for the idea of trying to suggest that a creators idea should be forcibly decided for them by others just because they think it should be some way.

No, I agree, it's just that with all the information we have about SW EU it seems weird to think SGR wouldn't be present.

Also, I'd disagree that there being SGR in game would be a forgone conclusion. But I'm of the notion that just because other BW games have it, doesn't mean I expect it from all their games. I just think that's the silliest thing to do, expect something because other products have it.

Not just because other BW games have. More because the lore/EU says nothing against SGR and more than that even contains it a few times. That combined with BW's previous titles made it seem forgone, at least to me.

My "realism" argument was meant from an in-universe perspective though. In place of any concrete statement either way by the creator, logic should be our friend. It just seems reasonable to assume that since there are humans in the galaxy far, far away there will be homosexual humans in SW. Add to that the fact that there have been approved homosexual relationships in the EU. Now obviously all it takes is for GL/Disney to say "Nope there's no gays lol" but clearly that has not happened.

 

I realise there isn't a debate going on any more, I was more expressing my shock that there had ever been a debate about this. It seems a forgone conclusion that there'd be "SGR".

I wish we lived in that world, SwoopingLion. The debate exists because some people are prejudiced against homosexuality for one reason or another (usually stems from religious belief, or just plain old discomfort with the idea of same gender sexual relations).

We do have supporting evidence for homosexuals in AGFFA, but the evidence is quite meagre... Three characters out of a cast of thousands. That could suggest that the numbers of homosexuals in AGFFA are considerably lower than on Earth 2013. That is not my personal point of view, however, I happen to think the numbers would be higher because there'd be less prejudice overall in the galaxy given the other intelligent species running around, so therefore less to no need to hide one's orientation from the world at large.

I wish we lived in that world, SwoopingLion. The debate exists because some people are prejudiced against homosexuality for one reason or another (usually stems from religious belief, or just plain old discomfort with the idea of same gender sexual relations).

Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.

We do have supporting evidence for homosexuals in AGFFA, but the evidence is quite meagre... Three characters out of a cast of thousands. That could suggest that the numbers of homosexuals in AGFFA are considerably lower than on Earth 2013. That is not my personal point of view, however, I happen to think the numbers would be higher because there'd be less prejudice overall in the galaxy given the other intelligent species running around, so therefore less to no need to hide one's orientation from the world at large.

That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)

Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.

Will have to disagree there. If most of the developed world accepted it, it wouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be debated as it is.

That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)

Which for this game they could easily say, the player characters make up that percentage. I doubt they'd say that as I imagine a lot of backlash would come from it, but they could.

Take Star Trek, where the whole thing is "Human populace has advanced" and I don't recall one SGR in any of the books I read, and the closest I saw to a SGR was an episode where the Trill Crusher was dating, became a female at the end, and Crusher was "Sorry. No." for no other reason as female now and at that time (if I recall this was the episode to introduce Trills) once the symbiote was implanted they became the person they were before, just in a new body.

Will have to disagree there. If most of the developed world accepted it, it wouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be debated as it is.

Unfortunately several outdated and conservative institutions have a problem with it. They happen to have placed themselves in positions of influence over the years and a chunk of their followers have a problem with it. It's a vocal and influential minority that have an issue. The majority either support equality or simply don't care either way.

Which for this game they could easily say, the player characters make up that percentage. I doubt they'd say that as I imagine a lot of backlash would come from it, but they could.

Except that it's an RPG where you create your own character. The devs could say "you can create all these characters inside the EU, except of course your player character is straight. Obviously."? There's an awful lot of things they literally could say but hardly any of them are logical or sensible.

There's no logical reason to exclude SGR in this setting and this game. Harping back to LotRO where (all) romance is omitted, there was a cry for SGR there. In this case there was a strong argument against it due to the well developed, restrictive lore and also Tolkien's devout Catholic beliefs. Better in that case to leave it alone, like the devs did. In TOR there is no such argument, the lore includes it, BW have no problems with it.

Unfortunately several outdated and conservative institutions have a problem with it. They happen to have placed themselves in positions of influence over the years and a chunk of their followers have a problem with it. It's a vocal and influential minority that have an issue. The majority either support equality or simply don't care either way.

 

Except that it's an RPG where you create your own character. The devs could say "you can create all these characters inside the EU, except of course your player character is straight. Obviously."? There's an awful lot of things they literally could say but hardly any of them are logical or sensible.

 

There's no logical reason to exclude SGR in this setting and this game. Harping back to LotRO where (all) romance is omitted, there was a cry for SGR there. In this case there was a strong argument against it due to the well developed, restrictive lore and also Tolkien's devout Catholic beliefs. Better in that case to leave it alone, like the devs did. In TOR there is no such argument, the lore includes it, BW have no problems with it.

I'm hoping for it as an option. Sadly, I think Makeb is the closest we'll get to it.

Oh I realise this, it's just I would have thought they'd accept that it was going to happen (since most of the developed world doesn't share their archaic prejudice). I'd understand a sort of "waah, I don't like this" QQ debate, but it seemed it was much more of a "will it/won't it happen" debate. From where I saw it it just seemed to me the "I don't want it" camp was given too much weight without any real hard backing.

For a start, the forums tend to attract a minority of players. Only the most vocal, you could say. Probably the vast majority of players don't really care either way. This is why you'll see it debated here - the nay side lost in this case, since we have got (mini) SGRs in the game now.

That could be down to chance more than anything. To be fair, most people are straight (again, presumably in the EU too) so a majority cast of straight characters is to be expected. A sample of a few thousand on Earth would probably pick up a higher %age but in an entire galaxy full of humans a sample size of a few thousand is next to nothing. (Of course from an out-of-universe perspective it's probably just that the authors didn't think to/want to include homosexual relationships...)

Remembering that we're talking about a universe with more than just humans in it, and of those non-human sentient species that have two genders they might all have differing percentages of homosexuals and bisexuals within them (some societies might have none, some societies might be all bisexual, some societies might have separated reproduction from sex completely and all be homoromantic and asexual). That's before we start looking at non-bigendered species like the Hutts (who are all hermaphrodites) - there could be species out there with three or more genders, and probably some with just one or no gender at all.

We simply don't have enough data to draw any conclusions at all... it is likely that there is far more variety in sexual/romantic behaviour among the collected people of AGFFA, than a simple x% of people are homosexual.

Yes, I have a wildly active imagination - and it disheartens me that there are so many people out there unable to think beyond Earth 2013 normal (that's not addressed at you, SwoopingLion.)

I'm hoping for it as an option. Sadly, I think Makeb is the closest we'll get to it.

Speaking of Makeb, has anyone noticed that Lemda Avesta looks remarkably like Kira Carsen, except without the scar and with a slightly different hair cut?

 

Take Star Trek, where the whole thing is "Human populace has advanced" and I don't recall one SGR in any of the books I read, and the closest I saw to a SGR was an episode where the Trill Crusher was dating, became a female at the end, and Crusher was "Sorry. No." for no other reason as female now and at that time (if I recall this was the episode to introduce Trills) once the symbiote was implanted they became the person they were before, just in a new body.

Star Trek is rarely direct with their message.

There was an episode where they dealt with gender identity that was kind of interesting. There was an alien race that had eliminated gender from the society entirely. Riker ended up falling in love with one, and she revealed to him that she felt very strongly that she was female. Sadly, when she made this public knowledge by giving a moving speech about how she really believed in who she was born to be and that it was wrong to hide it, they surgically removed all traces of sex/gender from her and brainwashed her back into being happily gender neutral.

I thought that whole idea could easily have been a reverse statement about transgender and homosexuality in our culture now.

Star Trek is rarely direct with their message.

There was an episode where they dealt with gender identity that was kind of interesting. There was an alien race that had eliminated gender from the society entirely. Riker ended up falling in love with one, and she revealed to him that she felt very strongly that she was female. Sadly, when she made this public knowledge by giving a moving speech about how she really believed in who she was born to be and that it was wrong to hide it, they surgically removed all traces of sex/gender from her and brainwashed her back into being happily gender neutral.

 

I thought that whole idea could easily have been a reverse statement about transgender and homosexuality in our culture now.

I know that episode, I don't recall a surgery aspect, but rather just a mind erasure deal.

I know that episode, I don't recall a surgery aspect, but rather just a mind erasure deal.

odly enough I only recall the surgury bit, but not really anything else apart from the change in gender.

Surely if a symbiod like that exsisted, people would seek it out.

I want same gender romances to be available.

My character is a male Twi'lek, they're known to be an absolutley gorgeous species but when I am playing I don't feel as though he really gets attached to the females as much as he has to Corso Riggs. My smuggler is very effeminate looking and even though he does his best to pretend to be promiscuous and charming with females it doesn't feel right.

From a rp standpoint same gender romance would be awesome.

And honestly, to any parent who thinks their kid shouldn't be exposed to it they need to pull their droids out of their maintenance shaft.

In my opinion (I am heterosexual btw) the in-game same sex romances would be okay. I am pretty sure most of us guys find lesbian romances just as pleasing and acceptable as normal ones. I have 6 female characters and I couldn't finish the romances on those characters (well I just can't do it with male companions). If there was a same sex romance option I could finish those too.

 

As for those who are repulsed by this option you could just make an option in setting to ignore same sex flirt options.

I do have to agree with you. Setting to ignore flirts options would be great. Having an option added to ignore same sex. Then another one to ignore opposite sex flirt as well. One thing that actually bugged me was how the hetero sex with companion was just shoved down my throat.

It like I am playing a female character and in order to get the companion achievement I had to max affection out with them. While doing this. The males always proposed to me. Even though I turned them down. The game treated it as if I had said yes. As they keep calling me wife and love.

Which makes it happy with the final boss in scum and villainy. It so nice getting put in the nightmare and killing my ex lover. Really BioWare need to add same gender romances for companion soon. So I can get a real marriage with my companion.

Also because this is sci-fi. People need to stop looking at it as a male/female only type deal. Star wars has shapeshifters. It has cloning. Genesplicing and cybernetics. Why can it not have stuff like hermaphrodite and non gender character? Really people this is sci-fi open your mind a bit.

It like I am playing a female character and in order to get the companion achievement I had to max affection out with them. While doing this. The males always proposed to me. Even though I turned them down. The game treated it as if I had said yes. As they keep calling me wife and love.

The "romance" triggers for most companions are much earlier than the actual proposals. They don't propose unless you hit those triggers. Not even Corso.

Why can it not have stuff like hermaphrodite and non gender character? Really people this is sci-fi open your mind a bit.

It does. You fought a bunch of them on Makeb.

I do have to agree with you. Setting to ignore flirts options would be great. Having an option added to ignore same sex. Then another one to ignore opposite sex flirt as well. One thing that actually bugged me was how the hetero sex with companion was just shoved down my throat.

 

It like I am playing a female character and in order to get the companion achievement I had to max affection out with them. While doing this. The males always proposed to me. Even though I turned them down. The game treated it as if I had said yes. As they keep calling me wife and love.

 

Which makes it happy with the final boss in scum and villainy. It so nice getting put in the nightmare and killing my ex lover. Really BioWare need to add same gender romances for companion soon. So I can get a real marriage with my companion.

 

Also because this is sci-fi. People need to stop looking at it as a male/female only type deal. Star wars has shapeshifters. It has cloning. Genesplicing and cybernetics. Why can it not have stuff like hermaphrodite and non gender character? Really people this is sci-fi open your mind a bit.

If they proposed, why did you start flirting with them to begin with? o.O

A few thousand posts about relations in MMO. It's hard to read all of it, so I just say my opinion.

I am not against same-sex, after all some of my characters seems to be non-straight. Especially female-BH and good-aligned Sith Warrior. Playing different characters is always fun. But I don't like the idea from the first post.

"So by the end of it EVERYONE has had the same options REGARDLESS of the gender they chose."

Why in that case we need so detailed non-player characters at all? Let's replace them with plastic boxes that are more suited for gender changes. And why we need gender at all? Let's replace player's characters with the same boxes. "PC class A have a romance with NPC #1". Excellent!

And It's not all I want to ask. Why my cybertech consular are so racist and technophobic so she can't intercourse with HK-51 or Qyzen-Fess?

So I would like more romances and more options, but I don't like too much "freedom" in that. Some of NPC are bi, some are not, some are lovers, some are just very good friends. But not "everyone can take on everyone anytime". And I think that I would like to see checkbox in character screen named "like" which can change flirt options of that character from girls to boys or use "both" option. Or developers can even add "Orientation" panel with the "Girls" and "Boys" side points from cutscenes for more roleplay.

And don't forget asexuals, philophobics and kids. They don't need to see that romantic stuff.

A few thousand posts about relations in MMO. It's hard to read all of it, so I just say my opinion.

I am not against same-sex, after all some of my characters seems to be non-straight. Especially female-BH and good-aligned Sith Warrior. Playing different characters is always fun. But I don't like the idea from the first post.

"So by the end of it EVERYONE has had the same options REGARDLESS of the gender they chose."

Why in that case we need so detailed non-player characters at all? Let's replace them with plastic boxes that are more suited for gender changes. And why we need gender at all? Let's replace player's characters with the same boxes. "PC class A have a romance with NPC #1". Excellent!

And It's not all I want to ask. Why my cybertech consular are so racist and technophobic so she can't intercourse with HK-51 or Qyzen-Fess?

 

So I would like more romances and more options, but I don't like too much "freedom" in that. Some of NPC are bi, some are not, some are lovers, some are just very good friends. But not "everyone can take on everyone anytime". And I think that I would like to see checkbox in character screen named "like" which can change flirt options of that character from girls to boys or use "both" option. Or developers can even add "Orientation" panel with the "Girls" and "Boys" side points from cutscenes for more roleplay.

And don't forget asexuals, philophobics and kids. They don't need to see that romantic stuff.

I think the post you were referring to was talking more about the opinion that Bioware should make romance options not restricted by gender. Gender is the only thing in the game that affects what options a player character has in terms of romance (aside from class). Nothing was said about making all NPCs romanceable, only that those that are should be romanceable regardless of the PC's gender.

Personally, I'd prefer Bioware to strike some sort of balance between "equal-opportunity" romances, as it were, and exclusive romances. For example, I'd support Quinn and Jaesa being made bi while having Pierce and Vette remain straight (totally arbitrary example). I feel like an ideal SWTOR [Flirt] breakdown would be 1/3 SGR-only, 1/3 OGR-only, and 1/3 bi.

On to your other question, I feel that species has nothing to do with it, as none of the romances change depending on what race you chose (except for maybe one instance in the IA story). And I always felt that the reason you couldn't romance most of the "non-human" companions had more to do with the characters themselves, not their species. Wanting your Fem!Consular to romance Qyzen or HK-51 is fine, but isn't really relevant to this thread. Make a new thread about it if you want. Though I imagine romancing HK would be a lot like licking a lamppost in winter. Not exactly the most appealing thought I can think of.

And asexuals can just not choose a [Flirt] option and be fine. Children, on the other hand... this game is rated T for a reason.