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Hard Core Raiders : CHILL


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Geez, I see nothing but whinning on this board about the end game content: this game has been out for 4 mos and you expect it to have as much content as WoW did after 5 yrs? Get real.

 

This game is growing. It will continue to grow. I am an end game raider as well, but I also have enjoyed the leveling story lines in this game to the point that I am looking forward to playing all 8 stories!

 

WoW leveling was aweful, it was painful, and the stories they had were worthless. BW has opened this game with quality leveling that, once it is tweaked, they can leave alone and concentrate on end game and pvp content. Be patient !

 

I'm sorry that you rushed through the content and got through all the HM's and Op's and now are wondering what to do. Stop and smell the roses, enjoy the game!

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this game has been out for 4 mos

 

I'm sorry that you rushed through the content and got through all the HM's and Op's and now are wondering what to do. Stop and smell the roses, enjoy the game!

 

Not sure if trolling or just dumb.

 

You said it yourself, the game has been out for 4 months, even the most casual of the casuals should be 50 by now. Some of us don't enjoy rolling alts and don't consider that "endgame content". I leveled 1 alt to 50 just because I had to level up something with someone that just bought the game, I will never do it again. I hate leveling, even in this game. I don't think the stories even are all that good and I've seen 3 of them. It would make the leveling enjoyable if it was solely done by class quests but it's not. You have to repeat the same old side quests making it actually more annoying than leveling in other MMO's because you have to space bar through it all or suffer hearing the same drawn out dialogue again just to go click 10 random things out in the wild.

 

My complaint about endgame is not the amount but the difficulty(or rather lack there of) and how buggy it still is.

Edited by Ganrax
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My complaint about endgame is not the amount but the difficulty(or rather lack there of) and how buggy it still is.

 

The bugs are the only things that make Soa a hard fight LOL. No bugs easy kill... bugs crop up; we have to fight for that kill.

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I'm not quite a hard-core, but I am a raider (full clear EV and KP on HM). I think the main issue is that there is a lack of variety and quantity of raids at the moment. There are only two raids, and you can clear both in one night. In WoW, end game raids took two nights, even on farm (going only from up to BC here, I stopped after that), considering only three hour raids. What's more, is that it's easy to do too, only reason we haven't done nightmare mode is because there isn't much incentive to. If you want anything harder, your only option is to go up to a higher difficulty for a n negligible increase in loot, and why do that?

 

In all honesty there needs to be another tier of raids, that quite frankly, not everyone will be able to clear, even on Normal. Not because I feel so 1337 to exclude people, but there needs to be a raid in which the mechanics and need for organization are such that some people just won't be able to do it, because that is the only way to provide an adequate challenge for the true raiders, coupled with the sense of achievement that is part of what makes raiding such a unique experience. Killing Soa with one extra ball and some boosted hp/damage isn't the same as killing a whole new boss that you know you are one of the upper percentage who had the skill and coordination to beat. It also gives people an incentive to really try and get good, so they can see it all. Right now, I have very little reason to log on, because I can't get more gear or kill anything that isn't on farm.

Edited by calrian
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I'm not quite a hard-core, but I am a raider (full clear EV and KP on HM). I think the main issue is that there is a lack of variety and quantity of raids at the moment. There are only two raids, and you can clear both in one night. In WoW, end game raids took two nights, even on farm (going only from up to BC here, I stopped after that), considering only three hour raids. What's more, is that it's easy to do too, only reason we haven't done nightmare mode is because there isn't much incentive to. If you want anything harder, your only option is to go up to a higher difficulty for a n negligible increase in loot, and why do that?

 

In all honesty there needs to be another tier of raids, that quite frankly, not everyone will be able to clear, even on Normal. Not because I feel so 1337 to exclude people, but there needs to be a raid in which the mechanics and need for organization are such that some people just won't be able to do it, because that is the only way to provide an adequate challenge for the true raiders, coupled with the sense of achievement that is part of what makes raiding such a unique experience. Killing Soa with one extra ball and some boosted hp/damage isn't the same as killing a whole new boss that you know you are one of the upper percentage who had the skill and coordination to beat. It also gives people an incentive to really try and get good, so they can see it all. Right now, I have very little reason to log on, because I can't get more gear or kill anything that isn't on farm.

 

The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

 

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.

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The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

 

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.

 

The best way to do it is how EQ did it back in the day - tier raids not by release date, but by difficulty, and never nerf old content to be "doable". This allows people to approach raids in an organic way instead of through some silly arcade system where they choose a difficulty level.

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The best way to do it is how EQ did it back in the day - tier raids not by release date, but by difficulty, and never nerf old content to be "doable". This allows people to approach raids in an organic way instead of through some silly arcade system where they choose a difficulty level.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand. How does that address the issue I mention above regarding only a certain % of the population seeing content, and thus making it a less financially sound decision for the dev studio?

 

Please understand there is no hostility in this reply - I merely never played EQ and am trying to understand the system you are describing.

Edited by Anilon
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IMO, part of the problem with PvE endgame is that there isn't quite enough to do beyond the ops themselves. While it was definitely a time sink, things like resist gear (fire for MC, shadow for Naxx/Shahraz, etc) gave WoW raiders something to do outside raid time. Tionese gear could have sort of taken the place of the tier 0 and .5 dungeon sets if Columi had been raid-only gear. Finally, attunements provided a narrative build-up to a raid and, given how verbose SWTOR tends to be, could have been pretty cool.

 

In a game as easy as this, I can't see attunements or other gear grinds being a negative; even in WoW, they were only removed when they began to provide a serious hindrance to progressed guilds getting new blood into high-tier raids. If people with few hours per week to play don't want them, then simply require them for hard and nightmare modes.

 

Other ways to spend time out of raid at max level would be welcome, too, for those who don't feel like regularly doing warzones.

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I'm not quite sure I understand. How does that address the issue I mention above regarding only a certain % of the population seeing content, and thus making it a less financially sound decision for the dev studio?

 

Please understand there is no hostility in this reply - I merely never played EQ and am trying to understand the system you are describing.

 

Everquest (and possibly other MMOs, but this is the one we're talking about) had a system like this.

 

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:raid_progression_guide

(You don't need to know what any of these raids actually are)

 

This is pretty simplified, but each of those "Stages" contains a number of raids from several expansions. As more raids came out, they were staggered in difficulty so that no matter what expansion you happened to join in, there was content easier than the current "top of the line".

 

Now, that game is 10+ years old, but you can apply the same lessons. Never do a gear reset, never introduce a hard mode. Introduce easy, medium, and difficult raids and, as more content comes out, fill in gaps between those raids and add new ones of increasing difficulty. All players eventually see all content (minus raids that are obsolete due to power creep: i.e. the "stage 0" stuff from the EQ page).

 

The problem with the system is the "release a raid on a specific big patch and that's THE raid for the next 6 months" style of development. If there was a lot of raid content of varying levels (and possible "super bosses" like WoW's Algalon livening up the "easy" content) your players all see/experience everything, pugging has some sort of viability, and elite raiders are back to being elite again because they saw it first.

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Everquest (and possibly other MMOs, but this is the one we're talking about) had a system like this.

 

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:raid_progression_guide

(You don't need to know what any of these raids actually are)

 

This is pretty simplified, but each of those "Stages" contains a number of raids from several expansions. As more raids came out, they were staggered in difficulty so that no matter what expansion you happened to join in, there was content easier than the current "top of the line".

 

Now, that game is 10+ years old, but you can apply the same lessons. Never do a gear reset, never introduce a hard mode. Introduce easy, medium, and difficult raids and, as more content comes out, fill in gaps between those raids and add new ones of increasing difficulty. All players eventually see all content (minus raids that are obsolete due to power creep: i.e. the "stage 0" stuff from the EQ page).

 

The problem with the system is the "release a raid on a specific big patch and that's THE raid for the next 6 months" style of development. If there was a lot of raid content of varying levels (and possible "super bosses" like WoW's Algalon livening up the "easy" content) your players all see/experience everything, pugging has some sort of viability, and elite raiders are back to being elite again because they saw it first.

 

 

Interesting. So in this system, with no gear reset, What happens when someone joins the game 2 years later and no one is running the first, say, 5 stages?

Edited by Anilon
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The major flaw in your second argument there, is that designing content with the intent to only have a small amount of the player base access it, is not a smart financial move.

 

It is my opinion that the MMO trend will continue with tiered difficulties of encounters. It is the most cost-effective way to provide multiple types and difficulties of challenges. It is why WoW changed to do that, and it is why SWTOR came ready with it.

 

 

Allow me to return the favor. In WoW vanilla, I never saw Naxx, most people did not. Did I say, "QQ I didn't see ONE instance! /unsub"? No, and neither did a VAST majority of players. They played the stuff that was down to their level. Know what I did do? I realized that I wanted to see the rest of the content, so I looked up builds, stat optimization, and learned to be the best player I could, got with a good guild, and come BC we were farming BT. Did most people kill Illidan? Nope, and they didn't unsub. My point is, just because some people can't see some content, doesn't mean they unsubscribe. A higher level instance that is more difficult gives those who are farming EV and KP something to move up to. If you can't do it yet, then stick with EV and kp and by the time you are sick of those there is no reason you won't be able to move up.

 

So basically what I am saying is your argument is invalid. As long as they have things to move up to, people will won't quit simply because there is an instance they can't hack it in. Know who will quit? People who are frustrated by content they can clear in one night while half the guild is drunk and that be it for raiding for the week.

 

Also, I'm not saying ONLY have elite instances. Have things like Karaga/EV, and if that is too easy on every difficulty, have something tiered like New instance normal mode => KP EV HM...New instance Hard mode => KP EV Nightmare. Then casuals have their **** to work on and work towards, and so do hard cores.

 

EDIT- I used => to mean great than/equal to, as in a higher tier instance on normal would be harder or the same as KP/EV HM and scale upward as such.

Edited by calrian
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Interesting. So in this system, with no gear reset, What happens when someone joins the game 2 years later and no one is running the first, say, 5 stages?

 

While there is no direct gear reset (in EQ there actually was a revamp of old zones to drop "reset level" gear, but EQ is a very, very different beast in terms of loot. Literally worlds apart from modern mmo's) levels often make enough of a difference that old raids can be effectively beaten/solod. As an example, in the first expansion, single groups were able to easily wipe the floor with vanilla raid content that took 6 groups to clear.

 

In modern environments, it would work by the very nature of later-expansion Power Creep making some old raids obsolete. I see nothing wrong with a "semi gear reset" in that a person who levels to 70, obtaining new gear and such, really has little interest in the most casual of level 50 raids, but they may find one (or several) items they really like in a "hardmode level" level 50 raid. This gives them a reason to see content they otherwise would only have visited out of curiosity (i.e. soloing when greatly overpowering the zone). If pickup single-groups are clearing raid content from 2 years ago and finding items they can use to beat entry-level raids in current content, you really aren't "wasting" any content at all.

 

In addition, craftable items finally gain real use in this sort of system, as they can be a great way to gear up to at least semi-modern content (i.e. the level where the more casual of guilds would actually be raiding).

 

Edit: Again these are heavily simplified examples with numbers off the top of my head, so let's stick to talking about the general idea as opposed to specifics.

Edited by Bekkal
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Allow me to return the favor. In WoW vanilla, I never saw Naxx, most people did not. Did I say, "QQ I didn't see ONE instance! /unsub"? No, and neither did a VAST majority of players. They played the stuff that was down to their level. Know what I did do? I realized that I wanted to see the rest of the content, so I looked up builds, stat optimization, and learned to be the best player I could, got with a good guild, and come BC we were farming BT. Did most people kill Illidan? Nope, and they didn't unsub. My point is, just because some people can't see some content, doesn't mean they unsubscribe. A higher level instance that is more difficult gives those who are farming EV and KP something to move up to. If you can't do it yet, then stick with EV and kp and by the time you are sick of those there is no reason you won't be able to move up.

 

So basically what I am saying is your argument is invalid. As long as they have things to move up to, people will won't quit simply because there is an instance they can't hack it in. Know who will quit? People who are frustrated by content they can clear in one night while half the guild is drunk and that be it for raiding for the week.

 

Also, I'm not saying ONLY have elite instances. Have things like Karaga/EV, and if that is too easy on every difficulty, have something tiered like New instance normal mode => KP EV HM...New instance Hard mode => KP EV Nightmare. Then casuals have their **** to work on and work towards, and so do hard cores.

 

EDIT- I used => to mean great than/equal to, as in a higher tier instance on normal would be harder or the same as KP/EV HM and scale upward as such.

 

 

My argument was not that people will not play. I would ask politely that you re-read. My argument was that it is not a smart *financial* decision.

 

I'm not sure of your background, but I personally work in software development. I'm a little segregated, being a tools developer and SCM - but I see how these things work. When I say it is not a smart financial decision, I am referring the this:

 

The number of players provided content vs. The $$ and Dev hours (dev being the full Des/Dev/QA cycle) to develop the content.

 

Your references to WoW are correct, but look at WoW now. And I would ask you - why did WoW change it's raiding paradigm? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Or because it made more financial sense?

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While there is no direct gear reset (in EQ there actually was a revamp of old zones to drop "reset level" gear, but EQ is a very, very different beast in terms of loot. Literally worlds apart from modern mmo's) levels often make enough of a difference that old raids can be effectively beaten/solod. As an example, in the first expansion, single groups were able to easily wipe the floor with vanilla raid content that took 6 groups to clear.

 

In modern environments, it would work by the very nature of later-expansion Power Creep making some old raids obsolete. I see nothing wrong with a "semi gear reset" in that a person who levels to 70, obtaining new gear and such, really has little interest in the most casual of level 50 raids, but they may find one (or several) items they really like in a "hardmode level" level 50 raid. This gives them a reason to see content they otherwise would only have visited out of curiosity (i.e. soloing when greatly overpowering the zone). If pickup single-groups are clearing raid content from 2 years ago and finding items they can use to beat entry-level raids in current content, you really aren't "wasting" any content at all.

 

In addition, craftable items finally gain real use in this sort of system, as they can be a great way to gear up to at least semi-modern content (i.e. the level where the more casual of guilds would actually be raiding).

 

Edit: Again these are heavily simplified examples with numbers off the top of my head, so let's stick to talking about the general idea as opposed to specifics.

 

Heh, I must really have the modern loot and raid paradigm "beaten into my head", as i'm having the "darndest" time getting my head around how the staging works.

 

Oh if only I were but a decade or so older - perhaps I would have gotten in on that so long sought after EQ experience. =)

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing how the content in the early "stages" doesn't become obsolete?

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My argument was not that people will not play. I would ask politely that you re-read. My argument was that it is not a smart *financial* decision.

 

I'm not sure of your background, but I personally work in software development. I'm a little segregated, being a tools developer and SCM - but I see how these things work. When I say it is not a smart financial decision, I am referring the this:

 

The number of players provided content vs. The $$ and Dev hours (dev being the full Des/Dev/QA cycle) to develop the content.

 

Your references to WoW are correct, but look at WoW now. And I would ask you - why did WoW change it's raiding paradigm? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Or because it made more financial sense?

 

Indeed, I did misunderstand what you said. My apologies. Now then I am not saying that there needs to be an instance that 10% of people see or something, just something a LITTLE tougher. ANYONE can run EV/KP on normal. All I am suggesting is an instance where the normal mode is about as hard as the KP/EV hardmode and scales up. That would be achievable to most raiders, which I would think is a significant enough portion of the population and also tends to be the group most likely to resubscribe and to maintain their accounts over the long run. Having challenging content is why I, and many others play. I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders. If the only way to increase the challenge is to run the exact same content as we beat before, well that sucks. There needs to be something new, but that is also difficult. Not insanely so, but enough that you can't ding 50 and run in, you have to clear previous content first to gear up and learn the coordination needed.

 

I do not know about WoW's raiding as it stands, so I cannot speak on it. I quit just before WotLK came out, due to lacking time to play.

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Indeed, I did misunderstand what you said. My apologies. Now then I am not saying that there needs to be an instance that 10% of people see or something, just something a LITTLE tougher. ANYONE can run EV/KP on normal. All I am suggesting is an instance where the normal mode is about as hard as the KP/EV hardmode and scales up. That would be achievable to most raiders, which I would think is a significant enough portion of the population and also tends to be the group most likely to resubscribe and to maintain their accounts over the long run. Having challenging content is why I, and many others play. I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders. If the only way to increase the challenge is to run the exact same content as we beat before, well that sucks. There needs to be something new, but that is also difficult. Not insanely so, but enough that you can't ding 50 and run in, you have to clear previous content first to gear up and learn the coordination needed.

 

I do not know about WoW's raiding as it stands, so I cannot speak on it. I quit just before WotLK came out, due to lacking time to play.

 

I agree with you that difficulty needs a bit of a bump. Where we disagree is on how that bump occurs ;). I feel they can enhance nightmare mode in future tiers to serve this need.

 

And as to WoW's current raiding: As of Dragon Soul and moving forward - they have three levels of difficulty per tier, broken as follows:

 

Raid Finder: A very easy difficulty for random, cross-server Pugging.

Normal: A normal difficulty for organized guilds

Hard Mode: The highest difficulty - for very skilled players and guilds.

 

Look familiar? It should, as it is exactly how SWTOR has set themselves up. (minus the ability to cross-server).

 

I would like to touch on one more point you made:

 

"I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders."

 

The problem is - that usually is not the case. You are dead on with the decision they are making - basically "how many more people will keep their subscription if we develop this extra level of difficulty tier". And that is the core reason for the model above. It allows more difficulty, with less Dev time.

 

As I said, you and I are almost on the same page, just slightly different approaches =).

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I agree with you that difficulty needs a bit of a bump. Where we disagree is on how that bump occurs ;). I feel they can enhance nightmare mode in future tiers to serve this need.

 

And as to WoW's current raiding: As of Dragon Soul and moving forward - they have three levels of difficulty per tier, broken as follows:

 

Raid Finder: A very easy difficulty for random, cross-server Pugging.

Normal: A normal difficulty for organized guilds

Hard Mode: The highest difficulty - for very skilled players and guilds.

 

Look familiar? It should, as it is exactly how SWTOR has set themselves up. (minus the ability to cross-server).

 

I would like to touch on one more point you made:

 

"I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders."

 

The problem is - that usually is not the case. You are dead on with the decision they are making - basically "how many more people will keep their subscription if we develop this extra level of difficulty tier". And that is the core reason for the model above. It allows more difficulty, with less Dev time.

 

As I said, you and I are almost on the same page, just slightly different approaches =).

 

I need to pinch myself...a logical, intelligent, good spirited debate on the internet?!

 

Anyway...my whole point is, at least speaking for my guild and the one that collapsed before it, many people don't want to just want the same instance over and over with a slight tweak in damage or mechanics. I do not know if you raid or not, but for us this is boring. It caused my last raid to self destruct as people quit raiding because they were sick of "Korriban was my cradle, my testing ground" or w/e every....single....week. And when we were all geared, what did we get to do? More of the same, but now with one more lightning ball! If they simply keep introducing easy instances with no options but to farm them on slightly higher difficulty, I and many others I know will not be around for long. There must be something to entice, to pursue, or it just gets stale! At least in WoW, we knew there was always something else to get to, a new instance, a new boss! A new adventure! Here..."Ok guys, Soa has more hp...oh and there is an extra ball, so same as the last 10 kills..."

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I was just wondering after reading all of the replies here and I have to admit that I did enjoy the civilized debate, so rare nowadays especially over the internet, mostly after the point that this thread was turned into a "raiding is too easy in this game, why don't they fix it and make it like Vanilla WoW, EQ, etc..."... And I agree with you and would have backed you up and jump in the debate myself till a few days ago, cause it is TOO easy BUT... Didn't any of you read the upcoming changes in 1.2.? :eek:

 

It's a big read so I'll just quote a part that interests us here:

 

 

Explosive conflict – new operation with 1.2

 

It is going to be harder than the current raiding content and will involve a lot more coordination and execution rather than just gear/stat checks.

 

 

Takes place on Denova, it will be a Tier 2 raid (KP and EV are tier 1 raids)

Nightmare mode of Explosive Conflict will not be launched with patch 1.2. It will come after and feature new/additional mechanics on the nightmare difficulty and offer new additional gear tier different from hardmode.

 

We are also renaming the "normal” mode difficulty we have right now to "story” mode to give a better reflection of the difficulty. This is not a mode for guild progression but rather a mode to experience the story and socialize.

Story mode of new raid is not too gear dependent.

 

 

 

Not saying it will be great, but at least there is a hope of things changing and soon. They said early April release... Give it a while, and yes most ppl didn't see Naxx in vanilla or AQ 40 but wow didn't have those 4 months upon release, was there since beta up to ICC so I do know a little of WoW history myself too.

Edited by Oloth
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I need to pinch myself...a logical, intelligent, good spirited debate on the internet?!

 

Anyway...my whole point is, at least speaking for my guild and the one that collapsed before it, many people don't want to just want the same instance over and over with a slight tweak in damage or mechanics. I do not know if you raid or not, but for us this is boring. It caused my last raid to self destruct as people quit raiding because they were sick of "Korriban was my cradle, my testing ground" or w/e every....single....week. And when we were all geared, what did we get to do? More of the same, but now with one more lightning ball! If they simply keep introducing easy instances with no options but to farm them on slightly higher difficulty, I and many others I know will not be around for long. There must be something to entice, to pursue, or it just gets stale! At least in WoW, we knew there was always something else to get to, a new instance, a new boss! A new adventure! Here..."Ok guys, Soa has more hp...oh and there is an extra ball, so same as the last 10 kills..."

 

I almost fell over laughing out of my chair at the SOA quote - i've thought the same thing when we kill him.

 

I can definitely see your point. Perhaps they could keep the instance the same, but add entire wings, bosses, etc to the harder difficulties - allowing normal mode to still follow the main storylines. That my accomplish both goals.

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Well thank you for that! I am not often up to date with what isn't yet live. I focus enough on what exists now. Seems the dev's agreed with me, this is perfect. I knew there was another raid coming, but I am glad that they did it this way! Can't wait!
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Well thank you for that! I am not often up to date with what isn't yet live. I focus enough on what exists now. Seems the dev's agreed with me, this is perfect. I knew there was another raid coming, but I am glad that they did it this way! Can't wait!

 

Glad to have been of assistance and if you enjoy a good read check here, I believe you won't be disappointed by what's coming!

Edited by Oloth
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I was just wondering after reading all of the replies here and I have to admit that I did enjoy the civilized debate, so rare nowadays especially over the internet, mostly after the point that this thread was turned into a "raiding is too easy in this game, why don't they fix it and make it like Vanilla WoW, EQ, etc..."... And I agree with you and would have backed you up and jump in the debate myself till a few days ago, cause it is TOO easy BUT... Didn't any of you read the upcoming changes in 1.2.? :eek:

 

 

Wow, thanks Oloth! I had not read that yet.

 

Glad to see some more challenging content coming.

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Well thank you for that! I am not often up to date with what isn't yet live. I focus enough on what exists now. Seems the dev's agreed with me, this is perfect. I knew there was another raid coming, but I am glad that they did it this way! Can't wait!

 

Yes, it seems they certainly addressed the difficulty concern. Also really glad to see the story mode is going to persist to the new operation. I can't quite keep up like I used to in college ;).

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I can definitely see your point. Perhaps they could keep the instance the same, but add entire wings, bosses, etc to the harder difficulties - allowing normal mode to still follow the main storylines. That my accomplish both goals.

 

WoW (and other MMOs, I'm sure) have taken this approach. I enjoyed having optional bosses even if they aren't a large jump in difficulty simply because they give you choices about how to run an instance. Don't have time for Netherspite (and already have your Girdle of Truth)? Skip it and run to chess event!

 

Non-linear instances would be nice, in general. Doesn't anyone else miss BRD?

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