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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan


Beniboybling

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this fight is like a bear fighting a bear trap... revan being the furrier of the two.

 

If it's Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, then he is at a distinct disadvantage for one reason:

 

The army of the Galactic Republic during the Mandalorian wars battled Mandalorians, who preferred straight fights and epic battles. Traya's shtick is to stick the knife in the back and turn it, turn it and turn it.

 

Traya and her assassins can blind others to her presence, particularly Force Sensitives. Traya's assassins also exploit the Force, becoming significantly stronger when in the presence of Force adepts. documented -overwhelming- success of her assassins on the Harbinger suggest that this is not even a fight but a slaughter. Jedi strength within Revan's forces as well as the mass of his troops are nullified by the fact that they aren't fighting their intended enemy but instead a ghost, masters of subterfuge.

 

In a one-on-one fight, hypothetically I feel it would be a very close fight because of Revan's power in the force. However it may be entirely possible for Kreia to simply kill him by severing his connection to the force, as easily as she did with the three jedi masters at Dantooine, or to create a Force bond and damn the both of them if she dies. Depends on the setup.

 

The Kaggath fight goes to Traya because she is not the predictable enemy that the Mandalorians were. Her assassins, with and without her, exponged the Jedi from the galaxy. Revan, as we saw at the foundry, is just more prey totally dependant on the Force.

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this fight is like a bear fighting a bear trap... revan being the furrier of the two.

 

If it's Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, then he is at a distinct disadvantage for one reason:

 

The army of the Galactic Republic during the Mandalorian wars battled Mandalorians, who preferred straight fights and epic battles. Traya's shtick is to stick the knife in the back and turn it, turn it and turn it.

 

Traya and her assassins can blind others to her presence, particularly Force Sensitives. Traya's assassins also exploit the Force, becoming significantly stronger when in the presence of Force adepts. documented -overwhelming- success of her assassins on the Harbinger suggest that this is not even a fight but a slaughter. Jedi strength within Revan's forces as well as the mass of his troops are nullified by the fact that they aren't fighting their intended enemy but instead a ghost, masters of subterfuge.

 

In a one-on-one fight, hypothetically I feel it would be a very close fight because of Revan's power in the force. However it may be entirely possible for Kreia to simply kill him by severing his connection to the force, as easily as she did with the three jedi masters at Dantooine, or to create a Force bond and damn the both of them if she dies. Depends on the setup.

 

The Kaggath fight goes to Traya because she is not the predictable enemy that the Mandalorians were. Her assassins, with and without her, exponged the Jedi from the galaxy. Revan, as we saw at the foundry, is just more prey totally dependant on the Force.

 

You make a good point.

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Last I checked, Traya doesn't really have an army. She has a group Sith Assassins and the Academy on Malachor V. She has no fleet, and the only means of travel that she had was when she jacked the Ebon Hawk. The Ravager was under control of Nihilus. Her 'army', if you can even call it that, is more like a small cult of followers. Revan, as a Jedi Knight in the Mandalorian Wars, was in command of a third of the Republic Navy. That's a substantial force.

 

Revan as the Dark Lord of the Sith, had an army consisting of what remained of the Republic Forces that followed him, as well as others who joined his cause after he fell to the Dark Side from Darth Vitiate's mind scrambling. According to the Revanites, during this time Revan trained a Thousand Dark Apprentices. As indicated, he either found Force Users and had them trained on Korriban, captured Jedi and converted them via torture, temptation and psychological tactics, or Jedi who willingly converted.

 

Some say Traya wins a space battle. That's quite impossible for her to do without a navy. Sure, she has her Sith assassins with stealth fields. But they need ships to board with. The reason why that ship at the Paragus Mining Colony was overrun, was because the Sith Assassins were on board the Ebon Hawk when they picked it up, and that's how they infiltrated. Now, even assuming such a tactic worked with the army under Revan's control, after one or two "Mysterious Losses", Revan would initiate new security measures and tactics that would nullify the Assassin's ability to infiltrate his vessels, thus eliminating them as a threat in space warfare.

 

It's already been indicated that Revan is a tactical genius and possessed great charisma and leadership skills. Traya herself was infatuated with him and Revan evolved the Republic's tactics and changed the face of warfare to combat the Mandalorian threat. Moves that were so surprising that Mandalore was thrown for a loop.

 

Revan's forces during these times beats Traya for numbers 100-1. In terms of personal power and skill, I can't even conceive of a time when Revan wasn't always more powerful than she was, except if it was Before he became a Jedi for the first time. As the Revanchist, as the Sith Lord, the Prodigal Knight or as Reborn Revan, he has always appeared to be at a level of power and skill tiers above and beyond anything Traya ever achieved.

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Well, obviously Revan is going to win the prolonged battle. But Traya, wise as she is, knows this and would do what she can to defeat Revan's forces with the people she has. Traya can mobilize assassins to infiltrate Revan's forces and wear them down. The threat of infiltration impacts an army greater than the actual infiltration. All that needs to be there is the possibility for Traya's assassins to be lurking and the Republic soldiers will slowly go mad.

 

Revan would win a prolonged war, but that doesn't mean that it will happen. If Revan tried to wait her out, he would see his troops slowly fall apart. Traya would turn Revan's strategy against him.

 

You see, you kinda argued against yourself a little bit there.

 

Point: We agree that Revan would win the prolonged war. I'll work with that.

 

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):

1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.

2. She can engage Revan in a battle. This way, she loses. Period.

note: Traya's assassins are only gonna help (significantly) in a prolonged war. In a prolonged war, Revan will adapt to the assassins techniques, meaning that the assassin's usefulness is limited.

 

Now for Revan's options:

1. Attack Traya at Malachor V. If he devouted many of his men to such a battle, then he loses the war. But he know's his master too well for this to happen. What would likely happen here is that he'd send a small portion of his force to Malachor, they'd be destroyed, and Revan would learn his lesson. He wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

2. Revan attempts to get Traya into an open battle. IF it worked, he'd win the war.

3. Revan sits out the war, starving Traya out. This results in a victory for Revan.

 

In the end: Traya just doesn't have as many options. The only way she wins is by Revan making a BIG mistake, which isn't likely.

 

I have now made up my mind: it's Revan's battle to lose.

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Darth Traya was not that Powerful compaired to her Apprentices , not more powerful than certainly Nihilus , not of Sion , not of The Exile Meetra Surik , and not of Revan Period

This is besides th point sort of but Traya is stronger than Sion by the time she returns to Malachor V, if you got the full content of KOTOR2 then you would be able to see that here's a link.

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Last I checked, Traya doesn't really have an army. She has a group Sith Assassins and the Academy on Malachor V. She has no fleet, and the only means of travel that she had was when she jacked the Ebon Hawk. The Ravager was under control of Nihilus. Her 'army', if you can even call it that, is more like a small cult of followers. Revan, as a Jedi Knight in the Mandalorian Wars, was in command of a third of the Republic Navy. That's a substantial force.

 

Revan as the Dark Lord of the Sith, had an army consisting of what remained of the Republic Forces that followed him, as well as others who joined his cause after he fell to the Dark Side from Darth Vitiate's mind scrambling. According to the Revanites, during this time Revan trained a Thousand Dark Apprentices. As indicated, he either found Force Users and had them trained on Korriban, captured Jedi and converted them via torture, temptation and psychological tactics, or Jedi who willingly converted.

 

Some say Traya wins a space battle. That's quite impossible for her to do without a navy. Sure, she has her Sith assassins with stealth fields. But they need ships to board with. The reason why that ship at the Paragus Mining Colony was overrun, was because the Sith Assassins were on board the Ebon Hawk when they picked it up, and that's how they infiltrated. Now, even assuming such a tactic worked with the army under Revan's control, after one or two "Mysterious Losses", Revan would initiate new security measures and tactics that would nullify the Assassin's ability to infiltrate his vessels, thus eliminating them as a threat in space warfare.

 

It's already been indicated that Revan is a tactical genius and possessed great charisma and leadership skills. Traya herself was infatuated with him and Revan evolved the Republic's tactics and changed the face of warfare to combat the Mandalorian threat. Moves that were so surprising that Mandalore was thrown for a loop.

 

Revan's forces during these times beats Traya for numbers 100-1. In terms of personal power and skill, I can't even conceive of a time when Revan wasn't always more powerful than she was, except if it was Before he became a Jedi for the first time. As the Revanchist, as the Sith Lord, the Prodigal Knight or as Reborn Revan, he has always appeared to be at a level of power and skill tiers above and beyond anything Traya ever achieved.

Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

 

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.

 

 

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):

1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.

Not as sound as you think. The Revanchists could easily be corrupted by Traya through capturing (via Sith assassins) and conversion (via Malachor) in this sense Traya erodes his armies by taking his Jedi, then uses these Jedi to erode his armies. Its an endless cycle of destruction!

Edited by Beniboybling
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Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

 

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.

 

 

Not as sound as you think. The Revanchists could easily be corrupted by Traya through capturing (via Sith assassins) and conversion (via Malachor) in this sense Traya erodes his armies by taking his Jedi, then uses these Jedi to erode his armies. Its an endless cycle of destruction!

 

Let's look at Traya's and Revan's forces more deeply.

 

Obviously, they're mostly the same people. What changed? Well Traya's are evil and corrupted. Who corrupted them? REVAN.

 

They're love and loyalty to Revan is what took them to the dark side in the first place. So they won't be turning in this scenario (at least not many of them - 'cause obviously there are individuals who'd turn).

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You see, you kinda argued against yourself a little bit there.

 

Point: We agree that Revan would win the prolonged war. I'll work with that.

 

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):

1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.

2. She can engage Revan in a battle. This way, she loses. Period.

note: Traya's assassins are only gonna help (significantly) in a prolonged war. In a prolonged war, Revan will adapt to the assassins techniques, meaning that the assassin's usefulness is limited.

 

Now for Revan's options:

1. Attack Traya at Malachor V. If he devouted many of his men to such a battle, then he loses the war. But he know's his master too well for this to happen. What would likely happen here is that he'd send a small portion of his force to Malachor, they'd be destroyed, and Revan would learn his lesson. He wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

2. Revan attempts to get Traya into an open battle. IF it worked, he'd win the war.

3. Revan sits out the war, starving Traya out. This results in a victory for Revan.

 

In the end: Traya just doesn't have as many options. The only way she wins is by Revan making a BIG mistake, which isn't likely.

 

I have now made up my mind: it's Revan's battle to lose.

 

Granted Revan has a lot of options in this battle, but Traya's options are deceptive options. You are underestimating the effectiveness of psychological warfare. Once Revan devises tactics to limit the assassins, what remains is a psychological impact on the troops. You don't know where the assassins are, they could be right behind you, they could be watching you while you sleep. This causes a number of psychological issues for the troops. Paranoia, sleep depravation. These cause a serious impact on the mental fortitude of soldiers, causing lapses in judgment or even suicide, if a soldiers mental condition has worn away significantly. Such conditions can be damaging to an army.

 

But Revan does have options. Trying to wait out Traya could give him victory, but it could also destroy him. All Traya has to do is have her assassins pose a threat and the morale of Revan's forces will degrade significantly. This creates an opening for Traya. The only real threat to her Sith now would be the Jedi, and we know how effective assassins are against Jedi.

 

Revan's only option is to strike Malachor quick and hard, or prolong the suffering of his men. If he attacks Malachor, he will lose. Which brings us to this question: How does Revan win?

 

Not easy to answer. Attacking Malachor is foolish, and waiting Traya out will hurt his army moreso. The best thing to do is not fight. Draw her out and strike when she is not on Malachor. In this case, the decision by the Jedi Council to avoid fighting the Mandalorians is the best choice. Draw out the assassins and defeat them as they come, slowly wearing down Traya's forces until she is forced to send in the Sith Lords. Eventually, Traya will either give up or empty Malachor's Academy in an effort to win. Then Revan can strike.

 

But I think you also underestimate the power of the Force. Simply starving Traya and her forces would not work. The Force can sustain a being for any amount of time should they choose so. Traya could play the waiting game just as effectively.

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Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

 

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.

 

That would be Nihilus' forces, not Traya's. The Kaggath is about Traya's power base, not Nihilus', and he tried to kill Traya. And last I saw, Traya didn't pick up the remnants of the Sith Army after Revan killed Malak. The StarForge was destroyed, much of the fleet was gone, and what was left was hunted down. If you're talking about what had been caught in the Gravity Weapon that ended Malachor V during the Mando Wars, that's not really a fleet. Barely a handful of ships. If any of them still functioned.

 

Also, even as Jedi Knight Revan, his tactics were superb and he's already mastered everything the Jedi Order could teach, including from Kreia. By this time, Revan had already taken the steps towards the dark side on his own after witnessing a vision of the Cathar's plight when he touched the fallen mandalorian womans mask, which he'd take for himself. That was the moment he called himself Revan. It has also been stated in the lore that during the Mandalorian Wars, Revan had visited Malachor V, Dantooine, Korriban, and other worlds where Star Maps had been found, and where the presence of the Dark Side was felt.

 

Revan is mentally too strong to be tricked by Traya and converted. The only reason Vitiate was able to do so was because Revan wasn't expecting the attack as the Imperial Guardswoman was supposed to help Malak and himself sneak into the Emperor's champers and assassinate him. Neither Revan nor Malak were aware that the Imperial Guard were all linked in a way to the Emperor and their assassination attempt was known to Vitiate before they even entered the building. Revan expected to catch Vitiate off-guard. Instead he was backstabbed by the ImpGuard and got mind-whammied by Vitiate along with Malak.

 

However, as we saw, this didn't last long. They didn't become Vitiate's puppets. Instead it, more or less, corrupted the pair and made them Sith Lords and Revan decided to conquer the Republic. And yet, despite falling to the Dark Side, Revan was still a tactical marvel and he did what he could to keep the infrastructure of the Republic intact. Unlike Malak who just scorched everything.

 

So, either way, I don't see Traya being able to overcome Revan, even while he was still a Jedi. Thousands of Jedi had followed him and joined him in the Mandalorian War. Most of'em only died when he ordered Meetra to use the gravity weapon on Malachor V.

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Let's look at Traya's and Revan's forces more deeply.

 

Obviously, they're mostly the same people. What changed? Well Traya's are evil and corrupted. Who corrupted them? REVAN.

 

They're love and loyalty to Revan is what took them to the dark side in the first place. So they won't be turning in this scenario (at least not many of them - 'cause obviously there are individuals who'd turn).

 

THis is so wrong. Yes, many were corrupted simply because of their loyalty to Revan, but it was more than just old war dogs fighting Revan's war, it was converted jedi. And they were converted by torture, brainwashing and the power of a given dark nexus- chiefly Malachor V post-mando wars. Atton Rand was one such agent for the empire that broke and converted Jedi.

 

Also, too much value is being placed on the power of longevity. Longevity in a conflict is nothing if you have no opponent to outlast. Remember that the Trayus Academy at Malachor V is hidden. Assuming they hold that advantage here, Traya's assassins can outlast Revan's forces no problem. Also, Malachor V is NOT a practical target for the Republic to engage because of its darkside power and hazardous environment to space craft. Yes, I am aware that WMD's aren't allowed, but the influence of the active, heavy and unnegotiable gravity and terrain of M5 makes using a fleet quite difficult.

 

Yes, Traya has a fleet, it is the remnant of of Darth Revan's Sith Fleet, and it is powerful enough to engage the Republic as well as TSF and their surprise Mandalorian and Onderonian allies at the battle of Telos. of course, the aim of Traya's fleet, under the command of Darth Nihilus, is to get Nihilus in place in order to feed off of the planet's life force. It can easily be used to engage Revan's fleet in the open and sabotage them from inside with superior boarding parties of assassins. Remember, we're not allowed to use Nihilus, but Nihilus' forces are under Traya's control... If we could use Nihilus, this would be a lulzy 1-sided fist fight.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :p

 

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.

She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

 

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.

Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, then other Jedi.

P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

 

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base

She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

 

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy

Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

 

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan

Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

 

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.

Edited by Warren-Stride
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Granted Revan has a lot of options in this battle, but Traya's options are deceptive options. You are underestimating the effectiveness of psychological warfare. Once Revan devises tactics to limit the assassins, what remains is a psychological impact on the troops. You don't know where the assassins are, they could be right behind you, they could be watching you while you sleep. This causes a number of psychological issues for the troops. Paranoia, sleep depravation. These cause a serious impact on the mental fortitude of soldiers, causing lapses in judgment or even suicide, if a soldiers mental condition has worn away significantly. Such conditions can be damaging to an army.

 

But Revan does have options. Trying to wait out Traya could give him victory, but it could also destroy him. All Traya has to do is have her assassins pose a threat and the morale of Revan's forces will degrade significantly. This creates an opening for Traya. The only real threat to her Sith now would be the Jedi, and we know how effective assassins are against Jedi.

 

Revan's only option is to strike Malachor quick and hard, or prolong the suffering of his men. If he attacks Malachor, he will lose. Which brings us to this question: How does Revan win?

 

Not easy to answer. Attacking Malachor is foolish, and waiting Traya out will hurt his army moreso. The best thing to do is not fight. Draw her out and strike when she is not on Malachor. In this case, the decision by the Jedi Council to avoid fighting the Mandalorians is the best choice. Draw out the assassins and defeat them as they come, slowly wearing down Traya's forces until she is forced to send in the Sith Lords. Eventually, Traya will either give up or empty Malachor's Academy in an effort to win. Then Revan can strike.

 

But I think you also underestimate the power of the Force. Simply starving Traya and her forces would not work. The Force can sustain a being for any amount of time should they choose so. Traya could play the waiting game just as effectively.

 

You make a good point. I'll grant you that.

 

OK so it seems we've narrowed down the possible scenarios of this battle. Now I feel we've determined that Revan is too smart fully attack Malachor V. He could infiltrate, but that's another matter. And as for Traya, she's too smart to engage Revan in open warfare.

 

So what's gonna happen? Traya is gonna stay at Malachor V for the most part. This gives us that prolonged war we've been talking about. With that in mind, I'll elaborate.

 

Let's look at what COULD happen in a prolonged war:

1. Traya wins due to her assassins unbalancing Revan's army and creating chaos. This is unlikely due to Revan leadership and overall charisma. I feel he could keep his men in check.

2. Traya and her army begin to starve and experience an extreme lack of supplies. Many things could happen here, but they all mean victory for Revan.

3. After a long time, Revan figures a way to infiltrate Malachor V. This could end in many ways, but it would likely spell victory for Revan.

 

Once again, I feel that the only way Traya wins is through a BIG mistake on Revan's part.

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I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :p

 

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.

She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

 

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.

Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, then other Jedi.

P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

 

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base

She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

 

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy

Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

 

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan

Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

 

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.

 

I agree with you completely EXCEPT about Traya's fleet. Nihliius' fleet would have been her's during this Kaggath. So she does have a army. Just not a big one.

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I agree with you completely EXCEPT about Traya's fleet. Nihliius' fleet would have been her's during this Kaggath. So she does have a army. Just not a big one.

 

My mistake then. I never really understood what was happening with Nihliius and Traya... oh well.

 

So she has a fleet. Revan's is much, MUCH bigger.

 

EDIT: And what army she does have is not nearly enough to wage a full out war.

Nihillius's fleet lasted a grand total of one battle. And they lost it. Against the Republic.

 

(Don't quote me, I'm going off what I remember from KOTORII, could very well be wrong, please correct me.)

Edited by Warren-Stride
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Traya does what she does best, manipulates Revan's best men, generals and Jedi, then turn them on him, chaos is sown through the Republic, all the while the Sith are killing off or corrupting the Jedi whilst Revan is busy fighting himself, I think that Traya could easily manipulate Malak into betraying Revan, I think she could also manipulate Karath and the others into throwing the Republic fleet into a paranoid delusion.

 

It would be very easy and very effective, the only question now is, is Sion allowed here? if he is, then he is another pawn that would very effectively kill any and all Jedi he came across, including Jedi Knight Revan.

 

I also believe that Traya herself could easily dispatch Jedi Knight Revan, she would play her mind games and could use some simple one-hit kill powers like Sever Force, Force Drain and other things, I can see her overwhelming him rather simply, many people vastly underestimate Traya's power.

Edited by Rayla_Felana
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she has a fleet. Revan's is much, MUCH bigger.

 

But also not nearly as effective.

 

EDIT: And what army she does have is not nearly enough to wage a full out war.

Nihillius's fleet lasted a grand total of one battle. And they lost it. Against the Republic.

 

Nihilus' fleet effectively destroyed the colony of Katarr, which WAS defended by multiple hammerhead cruisers and was only destroyed by the actions of the Mandalorians and the Jedi Exile sabotaging it.

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You make a good point. I'll grant you that.

 

OK so it seems we've narrowed down the possible scenarios of this battle. Now I feel we've determined that Revan is too smart fully attack Malachor V. He could infiltrate, but that's another matter. And as for Traya, she's too smart to engage Revan in open warfare.

 

So what's gonna happen? Traya is gonna stay at Malachor V for the most part. This gives us that prolonged war we've been talking about. With that in mind, I'll elaborate.

 

Let's look at what COULD happen in a prolonged war:

1. Traya wins due to her assassins unbalancing Revan's army and creating chaos. This is unlikely due to Revan leadership and overall charisma. I feel he could keep his men in check.

2. Traya and her army begin to starve and experience an extreme lack of supplies. Many things could happen here, but they all mean victory for Revan.

3. After a long time, Revan figures a way to infiltrate Malachor V. This could end in many ways, but it would likely spell victory for Revan.

 

Once again, I feel that the only way Traya wins is through a BIG mistake on Revan's part.

 

If Revan can keep his men in check that would restore an advantage to him. However, the "starve the enemy" startegy wouldn't work. It would work on her soldiers, but the Sith there would survive. The Dark Side would keep them alive. Once Revan feels that this strategy is not working, he has to attack Malachor. Either with his army, or solo. Either way, the Dark energies of Malachor will be his undoing.

 

These energies are what corrupted him in the first place, and will do so once again. Malachor is a powerful Nexus of Dark Side energies, and these energies would corrupt many of Revan's Jedi and turn them against him. This would lead to Revan's forces fighting amongst themselves while the Sith grow stronger. Eventually, Revan would stand with but a few followers. The Dark energies would corrupt or destroy many of his followers.

 

So now Revan has only a few Jedi and soldiers with him to enter the Trayus Academy. An Academy filled with Sith Lords. If Revan managed to make it through, he would be the only survivor of his troupe. He would enter the Trayus Core and face Darth Traya, who would break him. Empowered by the Trayus Core and the power of Malachor, Revan would either win barely or be corrupted and join Traya. Either way, Revan would be corrupted by the Dark Side.

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Traya does what she does best, manipulates Revan's best men, generals and Jedi, then turn them on him, chaos is sown through the Republic, all the while the Sith are killing off or corrupting the Jedi whilst Revan is busy fighting himself, I think that Traya could easily manipulate Malak into betraying Revan, I think she could also manipulate Karath and the others into throwing the Republic fleet into a paranoid delusion.

 

It would be very easy and very effective, the only question now is, is Sion allowed here? if he is, then he is another pawn that would very effectively kill any and all Jedi he came across, including Jedi Knight Revan.

 

I also believe that Traya herself could easily dispatch Jedi Knight Revan, she would play her mind games and could use some simple one-hit kill powers like Sever Force, Force Drain and other things, I can see her overwhelming him rather simply, many people vastly underestimate Traya's power.

 

Beni said that people like Malak, Karath, and Sion wouldn't be in the fight.

 

I feel that Revan's men are too loyal to him (he's the one that turned them in the first place) to go to Traya's side easily. Revan's men (for the most part) just aren't gonna turn easily.

 

Also (I fell), Revan is too good a leader to let his fleet fall into this utter chaos that you've suggested.

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I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :p

 

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.

She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

 

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.

Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, than other Jedi.

P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

 

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base

She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

 

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy

Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

 

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan

Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

 

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.

 

1) Nihilus' powerbase is Traya's powerbase. Though we cannot use Nihilus, his forces are still hers both at the beginning and the end of the Sith Triumverate.

 

2) Meetra Surik cannot be used, and the only reason she was able to defeat the Sith Assassins was because of her insensitivity to the force. That is explained after her first encounter with the assassins aboard the harbinger.

P.S. Yes it does. Learn a bit of Military history, paranoia, sleep deprivation, terrorism all have huge psychological impacts on wars.

 

3) Darth Traya has both Nihilus and Darth Sion on her side, as well as their power bases. We aren't allowed to use the other two Sith Lords but we are allowed access to their power bases. If this were a valid argument then I could also argue that Revan has no allies because his forces become darksiders and eventually he's just a hermit on a Rakata super weapon with just a few Jedi and Republic supporters.

 

4) No. Deception, betrayal, -stealth- are all effective weapons during wartime. She is the Lord of Betrayals because she has been betrayed, betrayed much more than she betrays, in fact. She is a cunning sith, her mind is her greatest asset, not her shtick for betrayal.

 

5) Yes, assassins because of their ability to easily kill Force Adepts, Meetra excluded because of her condition. This is a hypothetical battle scenario, meaning we can cut out the hesitation, cut out her fondness for Revan. At any rate, even if that were a valid point, everything Traya has done has been deliberate and without hesitation. Her decisiveness is one of her more memorable qualities.

 

She was the death of the Jedi Order and Revan's teacher. More than a match for him.

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If Revan can keep his men in check that would restore an advantage to him. However, the "starve the enemy" startegy wouldn't work. It would work on her soldiers, but the Sith there would survive. The Dark Side would keep them alive. Once Revan feels that this strategy is not working, he has to attack Malachor. Either with his army, or solo. Either way, the Dark energies of Malachor will be his undoing.

 

These energies are what corrupted him in the first place, and will do so once again. Malachor is a powerful Nexus of Dark Side energies, and these energies would corrupt many of Revan's Jedi and turn them against him. This would lead to Revan's forces fighting amongst themselves while the Sith grow stronger. Eventually, Revan would stand with but a few followers. The Dark energies would corrupt or destroy many of his followers.

 

So now Revan has only a few Jedi and soldiers with him to enter the Trayus Academy. An Academy filled with Sith Lords. If Revan managed to make it through, he would be the only survivor of his troupe. He would enter the Trayus Core and face Darth Traya, who would break him. Empowered by the Trayus Core and the power of Malachor, Revan would either win barely or be corrupted and join Traya. Either way, Revan would be corrupted by the Dark Side.

 

You make a good point. But as you said, the "starving" idea would only affect Traya's soldiers. With this in mind, Revan would throw everything he had at Malachor V. Without the support of the army, Traya and her students would fall. However they would take a TON of Revan's men with them to death due to the dark side nexus and all that. But even with the nexus, the Trayus Acadamy (by itself) cannot withstand everything Revan has.

 

Also - there are many more things that lead to Revan's fall. Not just what you named. There was the war, Malachor V and the Sith Emperor's brainwash stuff.

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Nihilus' fleet effectively destroyed the colony of Katarr, which WAS defended by multiple hammerhead cruisers and was only destroyed by the actions of the Mandalorians and the Jedi Exile sabotaging it.

 

Multiple Hammerhead Cruisers is not the Republic fleet.

 

The Jedi Exile and Mandos destroyed one ship. What about the rest of the fleet? Unless Traya's fleet is only one ship...?

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Why is the biggest advantage of Traya's forces the power of conversion?

 

1. Conversion is a tossup at best because everyone has varying degrees of loyalties, it takes more effort to convert some than others, but most will convert given the proper motivation.

2. Charisma means nothing when assassins do what they do best- cripple the mid-level leadership, sabotage their ships, steal cruisers and turn the physical vessels against Revan's forces.

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You make a good point. But as you said, the "starving" idea would only affect Traya's soldiers. With this in mind, Revan would throw everything he had at Malachor V. Without the support of the army, Traya and her students would fall. However they would take a TON of Revan's men with them to death due to the dark side nexus and all that. But even with the nexus, the Trayus Acadamy (by itself) cannot withstand everything Revan has.

 

Also - there are many more things that lead to Revan's fall. Not just what you named. There was the war, Malachor V and the Sith Emperor's brainwash stuff.

 

Malachor V was the crucible that kicked Revan down the path. If he fought Traya at the Trayus Core, he would lose. You underestimate Traya's power. Jedi Knight Revan is no match for Darth Traya.

 

Now if Revan threw everything he had at Malachor, you would see significant, even total, losses for both sides. It would eventually come down to Revan and Traya. And as I just said, Traya would win.

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Beni said that people like Malak, Karath, and Sion wouldn't be in the fight.

 

Then Traya is down one pawn and Revan is down half of his command structure, his effectiveness just took a big hit.

 

I feel that Revan's men are too loyal to him (he's the one that turned them in the first place) to go to Traya's side easily. Revan's men (for the most part) just aren't gonna turn easily.

 

Also (I fell), Revan is too good a leader to let his fleet fall into this utter chaos that you've suggested.

 

But Revan hasn't turned his men yet, they have never even been to Malachor V, Traya would be able to easily cripple his chain of command and remove his best generals, etc... leavimg him with no way to properly command his vast forces, it turns into a war of attrition where Revan's forces aren't going to get their supplies when needed, he isn't going to be around to command all of them at the same time AND his men are going to be wondering where entire divisions disappeared to overnight.

 

Revan is currently in a logistical nightmare that Traya will only ever make worse, his best generals/admirals were part of the reason he was so successful, then when Jedi start filling up Traya's forces, she starts have the force user numbers advantage, with Jedi turning to the Malachor teachigngs that had the Jedi destroyed in the first place.

 

Basically, the size of Revan's fleet is it's weakness, eventually he will be left with two choices, go turtle mode or attack full on, the first idea won't work because Traya would have already ground down the forces that Revan commanded, the second leads to the utter destruction of his fleet.

 

Revan is the Erwin Rommel here, but Traya is the Albert Speer, she can make something out of nothing.

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