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Shadow's lacking Raid usefulness


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I'm an Infiltration specced Shadow, #2 in DPS for my guild according to parses. I just got swapped out of my regular raiding team because the guild realised I didn't bring anything to a raid beyond DPS.

 

I can understand why they did it -- the guild's been struggling with hard mode EC and we need every buff and debuff we can. But my fellow DPSers bring more than I do:

 

  • Sentinels - Inspiration (+dmg/healing raid buff), Passive raid heals, Armour debuff on the boss
  • Gunslinger - Scrambling field (raid damage shield)
  • Commando/Sage - Off heals, dispels, combat rez, combat CC

 

Neither of my DPS trees can compete. I previously had use as a very temporary tank in other raids (eg. repositioning Soa under a pyramid if the tank gets mind trapped). Force valour can be applied by other people in the raid, and will progressively become less useful as more people get level 50 consulars in their legacies. Mind Maze has no use in combat. My control abilities (stun, low slash, slow etc) are fairly well mirrored across the dps classes.

 

What can I do to compete? I'm leveling up a gunslinger for now.

 

(cross posted because I realised this is a better place for discussion of the topic)

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Second in DPS in a dps slot and the raid is swapping you out? Seems like the problem is in your guild more than in the class.

 

Fair point, but it doesn't change anything. All else equal, why take a shadow aside from loot composition :<

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Fair point, but it doesn't change anything. All else equal, why take a shadow aside from loot composition :<

 

well the sentinell has alot of usefullness however you don't need cc, debuff, or combat rezz that often. You don't have to CC anything during EC boss encounters. Combat rezz hast a cd on the whole group. And if your healers are to stupid to debuff 8 or 16 man then that's not your fault. Having good steady dps and a guy who can play well are far more important. You need some key classes in the raid, yes, however kicking you out of the raid just proves that your raid is too bad to clear the content in a normal fashion and needs all the extra help they can get, soon they will be at another point making no porgress and then they will be forced to learn how to play the game no mather who they swap out now. People always look for an easy way out but in the end they will still get stuck because they didn't learn the lesson in the first place.

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I would quit your guild. Those people are too stupid to play with and are the types of people that ruin games. I would like to see some more utility from our class on the debuff side. BUt the fact that you know you are number 2 and your guild is submitting parses is a bad situation all together. My guild is working on HM EC and we never use parses outside of our own sick pleasure. Guilds like yours make the game not fun.
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I'm an Infiltration specced Shadow, #2 in DPS for my guild according to parses. I just got swapped out of my regular raiding team because the guild realised I didn't bring anything to a raid beyond DPS.

 

I can understand why they did it -- the guild's been struggling with hard mode EC and we need every buff and debuff we can. But my fellow DPSers bring more than I do:

 

  • Sentinels - Inspiration (+dmg/healing raid buff), Passive raid heals, Armour debuff on the boss
  • Gunslinger - Scrambling field (raid damage shield)
  • Commando/Sage - Off heals, dispels, combat rez, combat CC

 

Neither of my DPS trees can compete. I previously had use as a very temporary tank in other raids (eg. repositioning Soa under a pyramid if the tank gets mind trapped). Force valour can be applied by other people in the raid, and will progressively become less useful as more people get level 50 consulars in their legacies. Mind Maze has no use in combat. My control abilities (stun, low slash, slow etc) are fairly well mirrored across the dps classes.

 

What can I do to compete? I'm leveling up a gunslinger for now.

 

(cross posted because I realised this is a better place for discussion of the topic)

 

I our raid shadows are the top of the dps parse as balance spec, slightly above sentinels and gunslingers. BTW you misplaced a few descriptions there, gunslingers are the ones that reduce armor, not sentinels.

 

You can make the following argument to your guild about dps shadows:

 

- highest dps in game in balance spec, additional ninja rez, ability to grab and hold aggro in case the tank dies, extra taunt in case the tank needs to be topped off.

 

I honestly don't understand why you've been replaced in your raid, shadows are best dps tank classes in game with more group utility than dps commandos or guardians.

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Pfft. Shadows are amazing. If your guild can't down a boss with any (reasonable) group composition, then they have a long ways to go. We run with a Gunslinger and he rarely pops his bubble so any "buffs" he brings to the raid is minimal.

 

If your struggling to get included as a Shadow DPS, you could try tanking. They are quite amazing.

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Fair point, but it doesn't change anything. All else equal, why take a shadow aside from loot composition :<
For DPS, if you're second in DMG for your Guild. Bosses don't die with third rate DPS =/

 

Well, challenging ones don't anyways.

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I would quit your guild. Those people are too stupid to play with and are the types of people that ruin games. I would like to see some more utility from our class on the debuff side. BUt the fact that you know you are number 2 and your guild is submitting parses is a bad situation all together. My guild is working on HM EC and we never use parses outside of our own sick pleasure. Guilds like yours make the game not fun.

 

This I would never get rid of my #2 dps for any of the reasons you stated. Find another guild. You will be better off with a group who appreciates you for what you bring to the table.

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Haha.. an exploit is a shadow raid utility? Seriously? What else is there if you take that away? Infiltration/Deception is probably one of the least viable parsing specs in the game and balance is sub par compared to Annihilation/Watchmen or Marksmanship/Sharpshooter.
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Haha.. an exploit is a shadow raid utility? Seriously? What else is there if you take that away? Infiltration/Deception is probably one of the least viable parsing specs in the game and balance is sub par compared to Annihilation/Watchmen or Marksmanship/Sharpshooter.

 

Still a hell of a lot better than Vigilance Guardians, bud. :rak_09:

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Haha.. an exploit is a shadow raid utility? Seriously? What else is there if you take that away? Infiltration/Deception is probably one of the least viable parsing specs in the game and balance is sub par compared to Annihilation/Watchmen or Marksmanship/Sharpshooter.

How is it an exploit. The whole purpose of the ability is to drop out of combat and escape. It should allow you to do anything you can do out of combat. And again you people with your parsers. If the boss goes down then what does it matter. If the boss fight is coming down to missing 300 DPS then either your not geared enough or the game needs adjustment. My guild uses 2 shadows, both inf spec, gunslinger, and commando dps in our raids and we have yet to run into a problem that wasn't solved by better player focus.

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How is it an exploit. The whole purpose of the ability is to drop out of combat and escape. It should allow you to do anything you can do out of combat. And again you people with your parsers. If the boss goes down then what does it matter. If the boss fight is coming down to missing 300 DPS then either your not geared enough or the game needs adjustment. My guild uses 2 shadows, both inf spec, gunslinger, and commando dps in our raids and we have yet to run into a problem that wasn't solved by better player focus.
You're kinda contradicting yourself there. Without the parser, how will you know you're missing 300 DPS?

Also, how would you know who's missing the 300 DPS?

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its easy to know how much dps more is needed when you fail, you look at how much damage your group did to the boss, how much time that took, now you look at how much more damage you have to do, compair that to the damage/time ration youaready did, then you know how much more dps you need.
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its easy to know how much dps more is needed when you fail, you look at how much damage your group did to the boss, how much time that took, now you look at how much more damage you have to do, compair that to the damage/time ration youaready did, then you know how much more dps you need.
All of which a parser will do for you. Sorry, but if I have the option to use a tool to make things better for myself and my group, then I intend to use it. Doing it manually is just taking steps backwards and taking longer to do it.
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All of this is quite irrelevant since the guy stated that he's parsing second, so in the standard group composition it means that there are 2 dps that are doing "worse". Problem is... Worse is meaningless... Of 4 people, there will always be a first, a second, a third and a fourth. Unless you are having kill time problems, then judging performance from this meters is pointless, and in that case removing the second best dps is dumb unless he's causing wipes by himself (IE pulling aggro, not interrupting casts, etc)
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How is it an exploit. The whole purpose of the ability is to drop out of combat and escape. It should allow you to do anything you can do out of combat.

 

How is it not an exploit? There is clearly an intended mechanic preventing more than one combat resurrection. When they make it so revive can't be used with the debuff you will realize you were wrong.

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I our raid shadows are the top of the dps parse as balance spec, slightly above sentinels and gunslingers. BTW you misplaced a few descriptions there, gunslingers are the ones that reduce armor, not sentinels.

 

You can make the following argument to your guild about dps shadows:

 

- highest dps in game in balance spec, additional ninja rez, ability to grab and hold aggro in case the tank dies, extra taunt in case the tank needs to be topped off.

 

I honestly don't understand why you've been replaced in your raid, shadows are best dps tank classes in game with more group utility than dps commandos or guardians.

 

Well, They are 'Infiltration' specced, not Balance spec for a start, and certainly not a tank class either. Infiltration has LOW survivability, and you really need to know how to play this class to b honest. Now unless the Op was to change spec, then like me, the OP is pretty redundant in their guild, as less and less people actually want or need Infiltrators now.

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Just a note: Sentinels do not have armor rend.

 

Now: there is a problem with your guild. The fact that DPSers are getting the Zorn debuff should be a red flag. It sounds like to me that your guild incorrectly diagnosed the problem.

 

Are melee DPS a problem in Zorn and Toth HM? No, they're not. I've killed them with melee DPS. There are countless videos with melee DPS. It's completely possible.

 

As another poster said: this is a problem with your guild, not the class.

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our shadow dps is irreplaceable in our 8man HM EC group. Just because our strats on zorn and toth and stormcaller and firebrand and warlord kephess call for our shadow dps to use a taunt.

 

On zorn and toth when toth jumps our shadow taunts him asap back to the wall while the tank moves with toth and taunts when hes far away from zorn. preventing the drouks from getting their proximity buff.

 

On stormcaller and firebrand he sits on the firebrand tank and just before incinerate armor is used on the tank he uses a taunt, getting the debuff on him then our tank taunts back and this way we never have to tank switch making this encounter incredibly easy for us even on hard mode we can 1shot it.

 

On warlord kephess when the trandoshans come out our shadow will taunt the warrior and pull him away then kill it while our tanks pick up the trenchcutters and aoe them down.

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our shadow dps is irreplaceable in our 8man HM EC group. Just because our strats on zorn and toth and stormcaller and firebrand and warlord kephess call for our shadow dps to use a taunt.

 

On zorn and toth when toth jumps our shadow taunts him asap back to the wall while the tank moves with toth and taunts when hes far away from zorn. preventing the drouks from getting their proximity buff.

 

On stormcaller and firebrand he sits on the firebrand tank and just before incinerate armor is used on the tank he uses a taunt, getting the debuff on him then our tank taunts back and this way we never have to tank switch making this encounter incredibly easy for us even on hard mode we can 1shot it.

 

On warlord kephess when the trandoshans come out our shadow will taunt the warrior and pull him away then kill it while our tanks pick up the trenchcutters and aoe them down.

 

^^^ This. I agree with all of the above except Zorn and Toth. No need to have a 3rd taunter at all with 2 competent tanks.

 

Unfortunately, my Sin is only level 37 and climbing, started him a couple days ago. But my impression was that Shadow/Sin was one of the lower DPS specs currently for PvE content. If that holds true, and you are 2nd in your parses, *** is everyone else doing?

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