156 was the average it took to gain anything of decent quality out of the sto boxes, now tell me how long it will take u to get 156 keys the free way? even someone that subs to sto would have to save longer than a couple of days.... there is no way in sto you can gain 10 keys for free in 2 days... and even if you could 10 keys if alot different to the 156 you would need.

Wrong. There is no data to back that up. Its speculation. It's completely random, someone could get the top prize with their first box. Someone could never get it. Regardless, it matters not, if the player is willing to take the chance 156 times, that's their decision, no one is forcing them

Wrong. There is no data to back that up. Its speculation. It's completely random, someone could get the top prize with their first box. Someone could never get it. Regardless, it matters not, if the player is willing to take the chance 156 times, that's their decision, no one is forcing them

the only data is data from players.. and untill company's give us odds then thats all we have. ofc it is random but we talking about a business model, are u telling me that these company's use this model based on randomness? doesn't make business sense to me and when these company's go to the board room are they giving them predictions based on "randomness"

thats where odd's come into play to stop this kind of behaviour from casinos. you think those who do scratch cards want u to have a 1 in 5 chance of winning? if they had it there way it would be 156 in 1 chance of winning.

and if people wasn't being conditioned to spend money on these boxes then the game would go bust. so it is IN the GAME interest to FORCE you and at the same time condition you into thinking it was a free choice.

maybe a tad tinfoil hat, but i have a masters in business, and there is no way on this planet it is totally random

Umm correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it random when a group of people get boxes, they all open them, and they all get different sets of items? The chances are the same, but one guy might get a ship, another guy might get a battery. They all have the same chance of getting the ship. There's an equal probability that they will get the ship, but not everyone gets it.

As for the poll made by players, that's all it is. I took part in that, and I made up my data.

the only data is data from players.. and untill company's give us odds then thats all we have. ofc it is random but we talking about a business model, are u telling me that these company's use this model based on randomness? doesn't make business sense to me and when these company's go to the board room are they giving them predictions based on "randomness"

 

thats where odd's come into play to stop this kind of behaviour from casinos. you think those who do scratch cards want u to have a 1 in 5 chance of winning? if they had it there way it would be 156 in 1 chance of winning.

 

and if people wasn't being conditioned to spend money on these boxes then the game would go bust. so it is IN the GAME interest to FORCE you and at the same time condition you into thinking it was a free choice.

 

maybe a tad tinfoil hat, but i have a masters in business, and there is no way on this planet it is totally random

A masters in business maybe, but apparently not a master in statistics, nor a master in game design. Random in statistics means little more than slot A having an equal probability of being chosen as slot B. In game design this is translated into random number generators, where each number can be read as a slot and based on loot tables developers can asign a single or multiple slots to a certain item.

Everything can be asigned a single slot, with 3000 of which 2980 items are various crappy items for example, or there can be 10 items in the bunch with 8 of them taking up 12 slots a piece for example.

Nothing is guaranteed for the player in such a model. It's all left up to chance.

And if definitely doesn't have to drive people to use them, for example look at GW2. The lockboxes truly don't have a driving force to be used. They're fun if you're already planning on using the boosters anyway to get a shot at a random booster with some bonuses, but it's not something required to play competitive or anything.

This still is a subscription game and will remain a subscription game after the f2p switch. You guys are freaking out about something that you made up in your head. Nowhere does it say you have to buy anything from the store.

Now THIS is just the sort of dog that doesn't hunt, and is a good example of the attitude that is killing MMo's. I will state MY argument, which has more validity than yours...

1) A subscibing player should NEVER have to spend EXTRA cash, over and above his sub for ANY in-game content that is not purely cosmetic. New races, gear, consumables WILL appear on the store, to NOT have them would defeat the object of having a store.....They are NOT going to do all this work just to give players pandas and fairy wings.....

2) All (dont quote me on that one ) the players here telling the truth about the lock-box debate are talking from experience first hand, mine was in STO, SWG (card game) etc and are the best placed to judge.

3) Like it or not, when a software house implements this type of transaction in an MMo, its not long until the subs go through the floor (yes, even more than now) and the game becomes a ghost town aka STO.............

Now THIS is just the sort of dog that doesn't hunt, and is a good example of the attitude that is killing MMo's. I will state MY argument, which has more validity than yours...

 

1) A subscibing player should NEVER have to spend EXTRA cash, over and above his sub for ANY in-game content that is not purely cosmetic. New races, gear, consumables WILL appear on the store, to NOT have them would defeat the object of having a store.....They are NOT going to do all this work just to give players pandas and fairy wings.....

 

2) All (dont quote me on that one ) the players here telling the truth about the lock-box debate are talking from experience first hand, mine was in STO, SWG (card game) etc and are the best placed to judge.

 

3) Like it or not, when a software house implements this type of transaction in an MMo, its not long until the subs go through the floor (yes, even more than now) and the game becomes a ghost town aka STO.............

BOTH of you are on opposite ends of the hyperbole stick. He thinks nothing is going to change, and ftp will not touch you if you are a subscriber. This is obviously wrong. You, at the other end, think that your 15 skrilla buys you everything in the game. It does not . Especially in a sub/micro world we'll be playing in shortly.

All along, that has been your argument, not mine. You know what's in the boxes, you know what isn't in them. Caveat emptor, there is nothing of value in lockboxes. But reality will tell a different story. Virtual items represent an entertainment value to mmo customers, and whether or not I would ever pay real money for a sparklepony, people buy them and value them.

What is in the boxes? A bunch of game stuff.

What isn't in the boxes? Anything with any real monetary value.

The two are not contradictory.

Trying to say that lockboxes aren't gambling because that value isn't real is just arguing semantics. Semantic arguments may be sufficient to keep this issue out of court, but it doesn't justify the business practice of monetizing art assets through a system whose only purpose is to expoit gambling behaviors on the part of customers.

If you are so offended you can ride your high horse out of town and take your money with you.

A masters in business maybe, but apparently not a master in statistics, nor a master in game design. Random in statistics means little more than slot A having an equal probability of being chosen as slot B. In game design this is translated into random number generators, where each number can be read as a slot and based on loot tables developers can asign a single or multiple slots to a certain item.

 

Everything can be asigned a single slot, with 3000 of which 2980 items are various crappy items for example, or there can be 10 items in the bunch with 8 of them taking up 12 slots a piece for example.

 

Nothing is guaranteed for the player in such a model. It's all left up to chance.

 

And if definitely doesn't have to drive people to use them, for example look at GW2. The lockboxes truly don't have a driving force to be used. They're fun if you're already planning on using the boosters anyway to get a shot at a random booster with some bonuses, but it's not something required to play competitive or anything.

i never said it is guaranteed for the player.... i said the actual model is not "random" it just shows itself to the end user has random.

there is no way a business model like this would work for any company if it was just all random. why take the weeks of man hours to put a item in a lockbox if theres a random chance it will never be seen in game... it doesn't work like that.

why advertise the new latest must have item, if there is a chance no one will ever see it...

You all say it is random for it to be random they has to be a chance of nothing, gaming company's want u to see that new item ingame, they want you to see it and want it, they want you to spend money on it.....

there is nothing random about that.

business models are not based on randomness, and make no mistake these lockboxes are a business model.

There "used to be" a thread called:

"STAR WARS: The Old Republic - I stopped playing sto because [of lockboxes]."

It did contain some semi-official stance from EAware about what they thought about lockboxes. It has undergone forum rendition by the moderators for some reason. The thread was live all last week and was disappeared on 14Oct2012.

If anyone reading this has the "article" (source) with the EA stance on lockboxes and has not done so, please link in this thread.

The bottom line is EA is all for lockboxes and orange modible gear will be in the lockboxes. I no longer have any source to back that up. I am looking for the source interview. Thanks ...

There "used to be" a thread called:

 

"STAR WARS: The Old Republic - I stopped playing sto because [of lockboxes]."

 

It did contain some semi-official stance from EAware about what they thought about lockboxes. It has undergone forum rendition by the moderators for some reason. The thread was live all last week and was disappeared on 14Oct2012.

 

If anyone reading this has the "article" (source) with the EA stance on lockboxes and has not done so, please link in this thread.

 

The bottom line is EA is all for lockboxes and orange modible gear will be in the lockboxes. I no longer have any source to back that up. I am looking for the source interview. Thanks ...

I wouldn't be surprised if orange modable gear was in them. I don't see a problem there though, as you can get it from different places quite easily, without opening a box.

i never said it is guaranteed for the player.... i said the actual model is not "random" it just shows itself to the end user has random.

 

there is no way a business model like this would work for any company if it was just all random. why take the weeks of man hours to put a item in a lockbox if theres a random chance it will never be seen in game... it doesn't work like that.

 

why advertise the new latest must have item, if there is a chance no one will ever see it...

You all say it is random for it to be random they has to be a chance of nothing, gaming company's want u to see that new item ingame, they want you to see it and want it, they want you to spend money on it.....

 

there is nothing random about that.

 

business models are not based on randomness, and make no mistake these lockboxes are a business model.

How does there have to be a chance of nothing for it to be random? There will be no empty lockboxes. Of course the odds on getting a certain prize from one box isn't random. For it to be random there would have to be an equal chance to get all prizes. The randomness comes from multiple people opening multiple boxes. They all have an equal chance of getting the big prize, but it's random as to who gets it. It's that randomness that causes players to buy a box/key. I see that guy got a big prize, I'll try my luck kind of thing.

I see that guy got a big prize, I'll try my luck kind of thing.

Or alternatively (if it ends up like STO): Look that guy could "afford" to "gamble" and got a big pay-out 'Play to WIN' item (that is better than anything that can be obtained in game otherwise).

Let's hope it doen't become this. I for one HATE lockboxes. H.A.T.E. them!

(that is better than anything that can be obtained in game otherwise).

 

Let's hope it doen't become this. I for one HATE lockboxes. H.A.T.E. them!

I don't understand "better" in this context. If they do what they have stated, (No advantage items), how would it be "better" than what can be obtained in game?

I don't understand "better" in this context. If they do what they have stated, (No advantage items), how would it be "better" than what can be obtained in game?

"When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging." ~ EA CEO John Riccitiello

Listen to the linked interview. If Riccitiello is up for this idea, what make you think EAware won't eventually follow STO and Pay2win?

I trust NOTHING that EAware says anymore.

How does there have to be a chance of nothing for it to be random? There will be no empty lockboxes. Of course the odds on getting a certain prize from one box isn't random. For it to be random there would have to be an equal chance to get all prizes. The randomness comes from multiple people opening multiple boxes. They all have an equal chance of getting the big prize, but it's random as to who gets it. It's that randomness that causes players to buy a box/key. I see that guy got a big prize, I'll try my luck kind of thing.

you what? i'm talking from there point of view not ours... like i said its ment to look random to the end user,

lets say 1000 lock boxes, if 999 of them are just fluff and the 1 is the "die for item" the item to drive the sales. there is still a chance no matter how slim, that 1 item may never see light of day or penetration is such no one see's it in game.

the exact opposite is needed however, market penetration they want you to see the item, that is what drives the sales. that's why sto spams your screen with "lucky winner" in fact i wouldn't be surprised if it was all fixed, and the odds are changed accordingly.

Example, Item A comes out, first few hours, the drop rate 1/50 then next day up it to 1/100 after all you don't have to post the odd's so no one knows if your fixing them to meet your own gain. and the silly punters will give u a quid a go regardless.

i know if i ran something smiler that's what i would do... that's why we have laws on gambling, and on odd's etc.

Listen to the linked interview. If Riccitiello is up for this idea, what make you think EAware won't eventually follow STO and Pay2win?

 

I trust NOTHING that EAware says anymore.

Well ATM nothing in the boxes will be pay to win. If it happens then I guess you need to decide if you're willing to play swtor anymore. Just out of interest, what was the pay to win item sto put in a box?

Well ATM nothing in the boxes will be pay to win. If it happens then I guess you need to decide if you're willing to play swtor anymore. Just out of interest, what was the pay to win item sto put in a box?

Blackavaar will have to field this question.

Well ATM nothing in the boxes will be pay to win. If it happens then I guess you need to decide if you're willing to play swtor anymore. Just out of interest, what was the pay to win item sto put in a box?

just about every ship in the sto boxes are more powerful and better than defaults.

you what? i'm talking from there point of view not ours... like i said its ment to look random to the end user,

 

lets say 1000 lock boxes, if 999 of them are just fluff and the 1 is the "die for item" the item to drive the sales. there is still a chance no matter how slim, that 1 item may never see light of day or penetration is such no one see's it in game.

 

the exact opposite is needed however, market penetration they want you to see the item, that is what drives the sales. that's why sto spams your screen with "lucky winner" in fact i wouldn't be surprised if it was all fixed, and the odds are changed accordingly.

 

Example, Item A comes out, first few hours, the drop rate 1/50 then next day up it to 1/100 after all you don't have to post the odd's so no one knows if your fixing them to meet your own gain. and the silly punters will give u a quid a go regardless.

 

i know if i ran something smiler that's what i would do... that's why we have laws on gambling, and on odd's etc.

I don't see it as 1 box in a 1000 will have the big prize. I see it as 1000 boxes, all with, say, 1% chance of getting the top prize.

 

I trust NOTHING that EAware says anymore.

Ok...so why are we discussing it then? If its guaranteed to go down that path, why don't we all quit now and save the trouble?

just about every ship in the sto boxes are more powerful and better than defaults.

I'm not sure that's right. What about the c store ships and the fleet upgrade ships. And isn't it the weapons, shields, consoles you use that determine power? I thought the lock box ships were just more desirable with a few perks, like on board dabo. I could be wrong though, haven't played sto for a while lol.

Ok...so why are we discussing it then? If its guaranteed to go down that path, why don't we all quit now and save the trouble?

Did you listen to the end of this interview:

"When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging." ~ EA CEO John Riccitiello

I am all for making money for a company but, I don't want to end up like "John Riccitiello" and spend $5000 per calender year on a "game". Yeah, he said that.

I'm not sure that's right. What about the c store ships and the fleet upgrade ships. And isn't it the weapons, shields, consoles you use that determine power?

True, however the special consoles that the lockbox ships come with do make them more useful in many situations than most of the standard ships and even several of the C-Store ships that come with their own consoles. And besides it's not really about P2W that makes it suck. It's the fact that kool things that people have asked for since the game released (Cardassian and Ferengi starships, etc.) have been put in the lock boxes and as such will likely never be found by the majority of players, unless they mind spending mega bucks on keys to open tons of lock boxes that they have to grind to find in the first place.

It's like if SWTOR added the Luke Skywalker outfit from Return of the Jedi (or any really Jedi looking outfit that isn't a brown freaking robe) and put it in a box that had a 0.0006% chance to drop it and then charged you 5 bucks per key to open the boxes and made no other way to obtain the outfit.

Yeah, that's a cheap way to make a buck, BioWare. Don't do that. I will leave.

Do it Champions Online style. Make the boxes like grab bags that come with randomized items that are otherwise obtainable either in the game or sold in the store separately.