Me: No. No no no. No.

You: But-

Me: No.

You: But I thi-

Me:NO

In the ensuing decade, the balance of the Je'daii Order was shattered. Two splinter groups emerged, one which held the Ashla as the main power of good in the universe, and another whose members found power only in the Bogan. The light-siders, led by Je'daii Masters Rajivari, Garon Jard, Cala Brin and Ters Sendon, founded a new group known as the Jedi Order and deemed that they would only use their powers for the protection of the weak and disenfranchised. From this group, Master Rajivari broke away and formed a dissident group of dark siders who called themselves the True Dark Sons of Tython. Building an army of dark side monstrosities, Rajivari and his followers seized the Great Temple of Kaleth and attempted to defeat the Jedi Order. In a tumultuous conflict known as the Force Wars, former allies were pitted against each other and all that the Je'daii Order had become was torn asunder.[3]

In 25,793 BBY the war had raged for nearly a decade, leaving the planet a ruined waste.[8] Following the defeat of Rajivari's forces and other dissidents like him, the Je'daii Order was finished; the Jedi Order standing in its place. Having witnessed the destructive power of the dark side first hand with the ruination of their homeworld, a large group of Jedi set out from Tython to settle other worlds far from the Deep Core, eventually establishing a headquarters on the far-flung world Ossus with the help of Jedi Master Odan-Urr.

I fail to see how this proves me wrong...? The article is simply unclear. yes, two splinter groups formed. Note that this meant they had already left the balance of the Je'daii. Further, no where does it state that there was a conflict until Rajivari changed sides. For all we know that WAS the second splinter group and the article was simply unclear. Considering that the information on Rajivari could not have been added more than a few months ago and was likely just added to the original article (it was, as I remember the original one) it is simply a lack of clarity and NOT a contradiction.

Similar pattern applies to Kyle Katarn. Rather constant switching between two opposite made him somewhat master of both. Jaden Korr from Jedi Academy was also capable of both sides wielding (tho canon says he was LS one).

 

...I see the Force as a whole, no Dark, no Light. Force just is. Only the way one is using define the outcome. It's like an axe. Same axe can chop wood to build a shelter as well as chop others head. Is axe good or evil?

I think the confusion comes from how the Force relates to both the Light and Dark side.

Is the Force more like the axe analogy; A tool that could be used for good (Light side) or evil (Dark side) depending on who uses it?

Or is the nature of the Force that it exists in both a Light and Dark version, which corresponds to how the Jedi and Sith make use of it? Perhaps an analogy for that would be like a positive or negative electric charge.

In a December 6, 2006 post, Chee suggests the existence of a second continuity composed only of the films:

"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving."

Then this one:

On a post made on the same day, Chee stated that:

"Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."

This statement confirms the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "films + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products; G-Canon, and Star Wars Canon.

And these two from just last year:

Q: How does the Holocron canon system fit with the "3-pillars" system George Lucas talks about?

 

Chee: "G" canon and "T" canon comprise George Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe.

 

"C" canon and "S" canon comprise the vision of the Star Wars universe held by Lucas Licensing that goes beyond George Lucas's vision. This material is collectively referred to as the Expanded Universe

The only thing I'm guilty of is misquoting, and I even SPECIFIED that it was a gist quote, since I couldn't remember the exact wording. Same basic gist, though.

The first two quotes are from wikipedia (NOT Wookieepedia), and the last is the actual quote from Leland Chee's blog. I found them in another thread, where I copied and pasted DIRECTLY from wiki and Chee's blog.

ProfessorWalsh, you are wrong, sir.

EDIT: Also, I never said my theory was a fact. Facts are facts. Theories are theories. It's your opinion that my theory is wrong. Your opinion is just like anyone else's opinion. You trying to put forth your opinion as fact is, in effect, a lie.

If Einstein had listened to people like you..... And before you start, I'm not comparing myself to Einstein. I'm comparing you to the people that told him he was wrong.

The concept of the Force was drawn from Easter Mysticism/Religions, in particular I see echos of taoist and buddhist thought most clearly. In taoism there is an idea that trying to push things away from their original nature produces suffering and problems. In buddhism there is a strong bias against taking extreme positions, the Buddha's famous "Middle Way" philosophy.

I can't speak for what Lucas intended, but within the confines of the EU and reading the histories others have posted here it seems that the whole "Light vs. Dark" conflict that is going on is related to taking extreme positions, from trying to make the Force entirely their specific version which is merely an artificial construct.

It has always seemed to me that both Jedi and Sith try to shoehorn the Force into being their vision of it and limit themselves to as much of it as fits their preconceived notions of it. It may not be "real cannon" as far as Lucas is concerned, but the idea that all of the conflicts of the SW universe ultimately boil down to being the result of people locked in an endless and eternal religious conflict appeals to me. It is, in a strange way, a cautionary tale entirely appropriate for our day and age - a warning against assuming we have all the answers or that the universe absolutely must conform to our vision and understanding of it.

I fail to see how this proves me wrong...? The article is simply unclear. yes, two splinter groups formed. Note that this meant they had already left the balance of the Je'daii. Further, no where does it state that there was a conflict until Rajivari changed sides. For all we know that WAS the second splinter group and the article was simply unclear. Considering that the information on Rajivari could not have been added more than a few months ago and was likely just added to the original article (it was, as I remember the original one) it is simply a lack of clarity and NOT a contradiction.

Okay. Your point. For me this article sounded like there were:

Ashla-Bogan conflict

Light siders win and establisch the Jedi Order

Rajivari betrayes the order, which leads to war again

But maybe you are right and this was the first conflict. At the moment we just don't know for sure.

But there is another point I want to make:

Rajivari didn't turn against the Jedi order because of philosopical differences about which side of the Force to use. Maybe the others said that Ashla was the only way and Rajivari said Bogan was the only way (I doubt it). But Rajivari's real problem was the purpose of the order.

The other masters wanted the Jedi Order to devote itself to (galactic) peace, justice and exploration. Rajivari called this mediocrity. He wanted a powerful Jedi order, maybe even a Jedi empire. Of course this is light side against dark side, but it's not a dogmatic conflict.

This is where a balanced order get's problems. Neither would it serve the republic and the galaxy, nor would it be an order of rulers. It could of course focus on science and exploration.

Rajivari named his followers the True Dark Sons of Tython... They believed that only through Bogan one would achieve true strength.

The Je'daii were true students of the Force. Our lives were dedicated to the study of its mysteries and secrets. Our planet, Tython, could only survive in a state of balance. Our moons, Ashla and Bogan, showed us the truth of this. While Ashla and Bogan fought for dominance our world was ravaged by storms. Only in balance could there be peace. Thus we dedicated ourselves to balance and the study of the Force. We were scientists and philosophers, the greatest of our species. We were diplomats, negotiators, and warriors. We did our utmost to bring peace to others, but ultimately we were students doing our best to learn. What need had we of power? Of influence? We were at peace with ourselves and the world until the coming of Xesh. With his coming all that we were was shattered... But that is a tale for another time.

No, BEcause they are he opposites of each other.

The Dark Side:

~ Channel your power from NEGATIVE emotions, Hate, Anger, Fear..

The Force (Light Side):

~ Channel your power through meditation, focus etc.

You cannot be angry, wanting to rip your opponent apart while at the same time being rational and calm??

You can however be calm most of the time but get emotional about something and channel your power from anger for a short moment, Usually happens to EVERY single jedi when a sith gets to them.. i.e kills their master, taunts them etc.

BW screwed up with the lore by saying Revan was a master of both light & dark, Because there is no light & dark. There is only the force and it's corruption.

As far as I am aware, it is impossible to master both sides of the Force. The idea that "there is grey" is a fallacy. There is a spectrum, as those who bordeline the dark path have not yet fallen but are dangerously close. Some seem to think the Dark Side just corrupts you overnight. It does not.

It takes its time, it watches you, it tempts you, it leaves itself open to you. When you become critical at every shortcoming, the Dark Side is there to pull at you, whispering to you. It lies to you and slowly you begin rationalizing with those lies in mind. It takes its root in the shadows and once you let it do so, it is an upward hill battle against its influence.

Anakin did not just suddenly become Darth Vader. Years of manipulation, guilt, and self-criticizing slowly turned him away from good and whatever good intentions he had soon became secondary to the power he needed for those good intentions. He became obsessed, the Dark Side fixated him on one thing, then, without even realizing it, Anakin committed atrocity after atrocity and lost sight of himself. He was, in essence, "dead" in all ways but form.

The Dark Side does not share you for long, so as far as I can tell, mastering both is impossible.

Rajivari named his followers the True Dark Sons of Tython... They believed that only through Bogan one would achieve true strength.

Yes, that might be true. But that wasn't the reason to break of with the Jedi council. The reason was that he thought the other masters crippled the Jedi order.

Of course it was Dark Side against Light Side, but the conflict broke out over the goals of the Jedi Order. With what you say about how the Je'daii believed in balance before that, it especially makes sense. Light siders and dark siders to a certain degree were accepted in the order. But light siders and dakr siders have different goals, so when the order decided to become more than students of the force, their views would create conflict.

My guess is that in this time the Jedi though: "If we want to be guardians of peace and justice, we have to dedict ourselves to the light."

While Rajivari thought: "If the order wants to be powerful, we have to find real strenght in the dark side."

Sidenote: I have my own theory about "Tython's True Dark Sons". I think Rajivari didn't spoke about his followers there, but about what one of his apprentice names "allies from behind the mountains".

The Je'daii were true students of the Force. Our lives were dedicated to the study of its mysteries and secrets. Our planet, Tython, could only survive in a state of balance. Our moons, Ashla and Bogan, showed us the truth of this. While Ashla and Bogan fought for dominance our world was ravaged by storms. Only in balance could there be peace. Thus we dedicated ourselves to balance and the study of the Force. We were scientists and philosophers, the greatest of our species. We were diplomats, negotiators, and warriors. We did our utmost to bring peace to others, but ultimately we were students doing our best to learn. What need had we of power? Of influence? We were at peace with ourselves and the world until the coming of Xesh. With his coming all that we were was shattered... But that is a tale for another time.

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. Balance only leaves room for students of the force.

You have to add something to the sentences I underlined: What need had we of galactic peace? Of justice for people we weren't responsible for?

You can see it that way: If you want to achieve peace for the galaxy, you first have to achieve inner peace. If you want to achieve justice, you have to calm and put aside your emotions because they cloud your judgement. So you basically have to become more commune with the light side and desturb the balance.

The Dark Side:

~ Channel your power from NEGATIVE emotions, Hate, Anger, Fear..

According to Keleth-Ur (or at least his hologram in the Dark Temple) - the Sith channel the Force through the use of strong emotions, the chief of which are hate, anger, and fear. That isn't the same thing as only, and it certainly implies that any strong emotion (like love for instance) could suffice.

I think it in the context of this thread that the Jedi approach is just as "out of balance" as the Sith approach - both rely exclusively on reason/calm or strong emotions respectively. Ideally in the real world we should not be trying to repress or restrain our emotions or intentionally try to maintain emotional distance from others nor should we be allowing our current emotional state to completely drive our decision making either for that matter.

A zen proverb once describes the interaction of a zen master with a noted wealthy miser of a local community....

Master: What do you call a man with a hand that is forever closed and never opens?

Miser: Deformed.

Master: What do you call a man with a hand that is forever open and never closes?

Miser: Deformed.

Master: It is so, you must learn this yourself.

It is said in the proverb that the miser suddenly realized his "hand always closed" approach was wrong and strove for a balance of "open" vs. "closed."

I think that the question "master the Light and Dark" is a bit of the wrong question - and correct one cannot have one's hand open and shut at the same time to continue the analogy. The question is perhaps better phrased "Is Light and Dark even accurate? Is this something we insist must be? Is there a better way to use the Force?" (when asked from the perspective of a character in the game anyway).

According to Keleth-Ur (or at least his hologram in the Dark Temple) - the Sith channel the Force through the use of strong emotions, the chief of which are hate, anger, and fear. That isn't the same thing as only, and it certainly implies that any strong emotion (like love for instance) could suffice.

Maybe, but I highly doubt this is dark side. The dark side relies on negative emotions in all instances we have seen.

(I have heard about someone who used positive emotions to use the force. Guess what: He/she was a Jedi, not a Sith.)

I think it in the context of this thread that the Jedi approach is just as "out of balance" as the Sith approach - both rely exclusively on reason/calm or strong emotions respectively. Ideally in the real world we should not be trying to repress or restrain our emotions or intentionally try to maintain emotional distance from others nor should we be allowing our current emotional state to completely drive our decision making either for that matter.

But that's the cool thing about the Jedi (at least more experienced ones): They don't have to repress their emotions. They calm the emotion and put it aside. Something like:

"I know that I am angry. But I am not my anger and my anger has no control over me. The feeling is their but it will neither influence my judgement nor will it create chaos in my mind."

Yes, the Jedi don't use their emotions to draw on the Force. But they have emotions. (And I think the Force is better and safer understood and used if it is through focus, calm and meditation.)

We brought peace where and when we could. But we did not interact with the greater galaxy. Travel times were too long and hyperlanes too unstable. And we had peace. War too, but not among ourselves. Not until the true Great Schism happened. When Dark and Light became polarized in the minds of our people and they came to believe that you must dedicate yourself to one or the other. Then was our Order ended; then did the eternal war begin.

(Yes, I'm writing from the perspective of a member of the Je'daii. They weren't weak. They actually knew more about the Force than both orders ever discovered...)

We brought peace where and when we could. But we did not interact with the greater galaxy. Travel times were too long and hyperlanes too unstable. And we had peace. War too, but not among ourselves. Not until the true Great Schism happened. When Dark and Light became polarized in the minds of our people and they came to believe that you must dedicate yourself to one or the other. Then was our Order ended; then did the eternal war begin.

 

(Yes, I'm writing from the perspective of a member of the Je'daii. They weren't weak. They actually knew more about the Force than both orders ever discovered...)

(I didn't read "Dawn of the Jedi" yet. So I'm not sure if I'm correct. I will try to speak from the perspective of a Jedi historian. So let's assume I freed you from stasis or found your mind or maybe only a thinking hologram of you.)

Excuse me if I am wrong, but our records say the following:

"In the days of the Je'daii, it was used as a place of contemplation for those who walked too far in the light, where they would meditate on the darkness of the other moon, Bogan. "

How would you see that one walked too far in the light, if not through his actions. If not through his desire to help others and bring peace where and when he could. Would someone who did this not be exiled to meditate on Bogan and it's darkness?

Among you, balance created peace. Among great powers, balance might create peace too. But between them it is only a peace of distrust, because both fear the others strenght.

And the eternal war... it started long before you. The Rakata followed the dark side and enslaved and destroyed civilizations. Light and darkness are always the same and balance is hard to achieve.

(They knew more about the big picture, yes. But they couldn't reach deep down into the mysteries of the dark or the light side. I'm speaking about Sith alchemy, Sith sorcery or Force Enlightenment and Eye of the Sun.)

We brought peace where and when we could. But we did not interact with the greater galaxy. Travel times were too long and hyperlanes too unstable. And we had peace. War too, but not among ourselves. Not until the true Great Schism happened. When Dark and Light became polarized in the minds of our people and they came to believe that you must dedicate yourself to one or the other. Then was our Order ended; then did the eternal war begin.

 

(Yes, I'm writing from the perspective of a member of the Je'daii. They weren't weak. They actually knew more about the Force than both orders ever discovered...)

Out of Universe confirmed c-canon the Jedi, not the Je'daii, Order is the most correct. That means the Je'daii didn't know as much as the Jedi do.

Out of Universe confirmed c-canon the Jedi, not the Je'daii, Order is the most correct. That means the Je'daii didn't know as much as the Jedi do.

You must have first-hand knowledge of the Holocron, then! Wow!

You must have first-hand knowledge of the Holocron, then! Wow!

Don't need first hand knowledge of the Holocron.

In the book "Power of the Jedi" it has a whole section where it discusses other Force Using traditions. It explains about the Potentium Heresy and then states from a non-universe perspective that the Jedi have the most correct understanding of the Force.

Since, as the other poster asserts, the Je'daii had a fundamentally different view of the Force (which included things like Light Side corruption... Which we know doesn't exist by the way) then they by default had to have a less correct interpretation than the Jedi do.

Any view that clashes with the Jedi view on any kind of fundamental level in turn has to be less correct which is why all theories that eventually boil down to, "The Jedi Order is completely wrong!!!!!" are always irrefutably incorrect canonically.

Don't need first hand knowledge of the Holocron.

 

In the book "Power of the Jedi" it has a whole section where it discusses other Force Using traditions. It explains about the Potentium Heresy and then states from a non-universe perspective that the Jedi have the most correct understanding of the Force.

 

Since, as the other poster asserts, the Je'daii had a fundamentally different view of the Force (which included things like Light Side corruption... Which we know doesn't exist by the way) then they by default had to have a less correct interpretation than the Jedi do.

So, was "Power of the Jedi" a work of fiction or a non-fiction book about the Force traditions in Star Wars? Not sure, since I haven't read that one.

EDIT: Oh, and as soon as the blogs are back up and working on starwars.com, I'll have that link for you.

So, was "Power of the Jedi" a work of fiction or a non-fiction book about the Force traditions in Star Wars? Not sure, since I haven't read that one.

Non-fiction sourcebook and GM resource guide.

You can find "Power of the Jedi" on Amazon though it is pricey these days.

Linky

Non-fiction sourcebook and GM resource guide.

Ok. Yeah, btw... don't ever say that I'm putting forward facts about a theory, when a theory is completely different than a fact. They're seperate entities, and you know it. Now, don't ever call me a liar when I never said it was fact. And don't ever call me a liar because I found something before you did.

And don't ever call me a liar because I found something before you did.

You have not shown any proof to support your claim that according to Leland Chee the EU doesn't have to conform to Lucas' vision. Until that time I postulate that you are either lying or you are misremembering a fact. We know that the EU has to follow and conform to the vision of Lucas in any and all cases.

Sidenote: I have my own theory about "Tython's True Dark Sons". I think Rajivari didn't spoke about his followers there, but about what one of his apprentice names "allies from behind the mountains".

Just as a note: the "true dark sons of Tython" is not intended to refer to Master Rajivari's followers and apprentices.

That would be like attempting to keep calm and rational, filled with Zen whilst simultaneously being angry, hateful and full of rage, it isn't possible to use both, it does not work that way, regardless of power, they'd cancel each other out.

Only while wielding Saidin!