I had a lot of questions pertaining to the things I included in the video. I hope it helps out for any who strive to play the spec.

It isn't an advanced tutorial that will tell you what to do in every situation, but it does give you a basic feel for how the spec plays.

I've been playing lethality in pugs, and I think it is a very underrated spec. Most people see lethality operatives as multi-dotters that do fluff damage, but in reality, it can be a very bursty spec. I've had more success bursting people down as lethality than concealment. Cull is one of the harder hitting abilities in the game, and it can be fired back to back. My operative just hit 50 so I'm still in the gearing process. I only have like 16k hp, so people tend to target me. I love kiting them to the side and setting up on them, then debilitate and go to town. Double culls or explosive probe + cull can really take players by surprise.

The only downfall with the spec is the setup required. With the amount of setup and the limited window to use your precious TA's, bubblestuns can be the bane of my existence. It definitely takes some finesse to play and I'm not quite there yet, but hopefully things will get better with experience and gear. I really do enjoy the playstyle, and thank you for the guide. I wasn't quite sure how i wanted to gear yet, so this helped.

Ravashakk, thanks for the video. I learned a few more things about this great spec.

Double culls or explosive probe + cull can really take players by surprise.

It's also great when you get your timing down for a Cull, Cull, Shiv, Cull.

...the limited window to use your precious TA's...

I am planning to try out a couple points in Medical Consult to extend TA's uptime, maybe that will help you out, as well.

Keeping TA up was an issue when I started out. Not having the auto procs from the healing tree, the longer duration, and higher stack limit made the transition harder. After awhile, you get to learn how to keep it up which will save you those 2 points (I considered them when I started).

A skill that will help you is not always trying to save them for some Ungodly burst phase. If a TA is running out, either pop stim boost or use it on someone if you can't shiv.

...

...

I am planning to try out a couple points in Medical Consult to extend TA's uptime, maybe that will help you out, as well.

@op: thanks for this video :-)

As for 'medical consult', i use it, because the 10sec of TA stack hold is not enough, not in pve, not in pvp.

This is my spec i run currently mostly with:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401bczZrZhrbkrMGdGo.2

- i dont use 'adhesive corrosives', instead i put 2 pts to 'escape plan'

- i use 'counter strike' as in pvp you're mezzed all the time

- i dont use 'lingering toxins' not in pvp, not in pve (in pve it makes me mistakes as it is hard to watch which version of poison is up -> loosing dps and in pvp it's obviosly making ppl un-cc-able for 30 seconds, which is not good and after i die it keeps me in 'aggro' too long

@op: thanks for this video :-)

 

As for 'medical consult', i use it, because the 10sec of TA stack hold is not enough, not in pve, not in pvp.

This is my spec i run currently mostly with:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401bczZrZhrbkrMGdGo.2

Yeah I can't blame anyone for wanting that talent. Just for me it is a matter of what I'm losing compared to what I can deal with. Some can't.

- i dont use 'adhesive corrosives', instead i put 2 pts to 'escape plan'

Good tradeoff I've done a few times.

- i use 'counter strike' as in pvp you're mezzed all the time

I might be confused, but I thought it only removed slows/roots, not mezzes. Haven't tested it before. Doesn't sound like it should work that way.

- i dont use 'lingering toxins' not in pvp, not in pve (in pve it makes me mistakes as it is hard to watch which version of poison is up -> loosing dps and in pvp it's obviosly making ppl un-cc-able for 30 seconds, which is not good and after i die it keeps me in 'aggro' too long

Valid points, but the counter to that is:

1. Your dots are already making ppl un-cc-able for 18/21 seconds.

2. Your strong dots are gonna keep you in combat until they wear off too, and sometimes longer because bw fails at their combat dropping system.

The dot confusion is an issue because of the lack of a good UI when it comes to debuffs and personal dots (warcraft has bigger ones). Should have something on the debuff that makes it different than the stronger version IMO.

The talent also gives the the 15% dmg reduction to periodic effects, which you're missing out on. Most every spec of every class has a DoT of sort....some of which do a lot of dmg. IMO this talent reduces more dmg than the 4% dmg reduction in the healing tree against certain teams.

I have a couple questions on the importance of accuracy. If the white damage portion of a Cull misses, do the yellow portions still hit? I notice you only have 90% accuracy in your vid. Is that only because you also use that gear for healing, or is your recommendation that 90% is optimal for lethality?

**Edited for clarity on questions.

I have a couple questions on the importance of accuracy. If the white damage portion of a Cull misses, do the yellow portions still hit? I notice you only have 90% accuracy in your vid. Is that only because you also use that gear for healing, or is your recommendation that 90% is optimal for lethality?

 

**Edited for clarity on questions.

The white dmg of cull can miss and the yellow will still hit. It happens sometimes, but not worth trading off surge (which affects all your yellow attacks) to compensate. Even if you don't consider the dual gearing for healing and lethality.

I have a couple questions on the importance of accuracy. If the white damage portion of a Cull misses, do the yellow portions still hit? I notice you only have 90% accuracy in your vid. Is that only because you also use that gear for healing, or is your recommendation that 90% is optimal for lethality?

 

**Edited for clarity on questions.

Yeah, people tend to go by Concealment guides for their stat placement, but it's not 100% applicable to Lethality.

Pushing crit a little bit higher than usual, is a good idea for Lethality, for example. This is because of the +energy on crits. A good way to do this, is increase your cunning as much as possible (DEFINITELY go for +cunning augments only.), since the crit bonus from cunning is seperate from the soft cap on +crit. Then boost your crit stat a bit higher than normal, as well. I like to be at about 40% or so, but I've heard of some going even higher.

And as you mention, accuracy is actually a factor for us, unlike Concealment. You definitely want to put a little bit into it, since a 10% lower chance of your white Cull damage or Rifle Shot missing, is going to do a lot more than a few extra points in surge, which should already be soft capped anyways.

And if you don't use Rifle Shot? Then you must have an unlimited pool of energy at all times, unlike me . Either that, or you have room for improvement!

Yeah, people tend to go by Concealment guides for their stat placement, but it's not 100% applicable to Lethality.

 

Pushing crit a little bit higher than usual, is a good idea for Lethality, for example. This is because of the +energy on crits. A good way to do this, is increase your cunning as much as possible (DEFINITELY go for +cunning augments only.), since the crit bonus from cunning is seperate from the soft cap on +crit. Then boost your crit stat a bit higher than normal, as well. I like to be at about 40% or so, but I've heard of some going even higher.

 

And as you mention, accuracy is actually a factor for us, unlike Concealment. You definitely want to put a little bit into it, since a 10% lower chance of your white Cull damage or Rifle Shot missing, is going to do a lot more than a few extra points in surge, which should already be soft capped anyways.

 

And if you don't use Rifle Shot? Then you must have an unlimited pool of energy at all times, unlike me . Either that, or you have room for improvement!

I agree with pretty much everything except the crit part. Now having more crit isn't a bad thing, but it is based on what you're looking for. When I'm around 37% crit, the math points to power giving more of a boost to almost all of my attacks than crit. So at that point, you have to juggle energy efficiency vs throughput. Are you having energy issues? Then get more crit. Is energy fine but you want to hit harder? More power. There isn't a real "winner" between 35-40%.

I agree with pretty much everything except the crit part. Now having more crit isn't a bad thing, but it is based on what you're looking for. When I'm around 37% crit, the math points to power giving more of a boost to almost all of my attacks than crit. So at that point, you have to juggle energy efficiency vs throughput. Are you having energy issues? Then get more crit. Is energy fine but you want to hit harder? More power. There isn't a real "winner" between 35-40%.

I'm not one to make a big deal over 3% crit.

I just like to point out that the often accepted "30%" crit, isn't where a Lethality Op wants to be.

I do feel that going over 40% is definitely not worth it, thus why I don't. And for 40% to be worth it, you need to have a very high cunning stat. But no matter what playstyle you use, or how good you are at energy management - You can always do with some better energy regen.

I'm not one to make a big deal over 3% crit.

 

I just like to point out that the often accepted "30%" crit, isn't where a Lethality Op wants to be.

 

I do feel that going over 40% is definitely not worth it, thus why I don't. And for 40% to be worth it, you need to have a very high cunning stat. But no matter what playstyle you use, or how good you are at energy management - You can always do with some better energy regen.

Of course I could always use more regen, but I could always use more power too. Just gotta think is what I'm giving up worth it?

@op: thanks for this video :-)

 

As for 'medical consult', i use it, because the 10sec of TA stack hold is not enough, not in pve, not in pvp.

This is my spec i run currently mostly with:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401bczZrZhrbkrMGdGo.2

 

- i dont use 'adhesive corrosives', instead i put 2 pts to 'escape plan'

- i use 'counter strike' as in pvp you're mezzed all the time

- i dont use 'lingering toxins' not in pvp, not in pve (in pve it makes me mistakes as it is hard to watch which version of poison is up -> loosing dps and in pvp it's obviosly making ppl un-cc-able for 30 seconds, which is not good and after i die it keeps me in 'aggro' too long

Your spec is kind of iffy in my opinion. Giving up the aoe slow for an additional cleanse (have you tried cleansing the stuns it mostly works if it doesn't work Evasion always brakes roots) is kind of stupid... I find myself loosing targets if the AoE slow isn't up... I suppose you can use Sever Tendon but a Frag Grenade is usually followed by a corrosive grenade in which case the AoE slow would be necessary. I have been thinking about taking points out of lingering toxins but I find it so very useful for stealth classes in general (if they cleanse dots can be reapplied in which case you can finish off the target)

Another thing Ravashakk do you think taking a point out of Imperial Brew and putting one point into medical consultant necessary (I do find myself missing it.. I switched to your spec the other night, and I find myself avg. 750 dps plus but I do miss the extended time on my TA's.)

***** I am new to operative I just got him to fifty two weeks ago but I am up to learning to any tips and/or criticism would be appreciated.

Your spec is kind of iffy in my opinion. Giving up the aoe slow for an additional cleanse (have you tried cleansing the stuns it mostly works if it doesn't work Evasion always brakes roots) is kind of stupid... I find myself loosing targets if the AoE slow isn't up... I suppose you can use Sever Tendon but a Frag Grenade is usually followed by a corrosive grenade in which case the AoE slow would be necessary. I have been thinking about taking points out of lingering toxins but I find it so very useful for stealth classes in general (if they cleanse dots can be reapplied in which case you can finish off the target)

 

Another thing Ravashakk do you think taking a point out of Imperial Brew and putting one point into medical consultant necessary (I do find myself missing it.. I switched to your spec the other night, and I find myself avg. 750 dps plus but I do miss the extended time on my TA's.)

 

***** I am new to operative I just got him to fifty two weeks ago but I am up to learning to any tips and/or criticism would be appreciated.

Remember, a duration is not only for using it in a certain time but also refreshing it. If you shiv on cooldown it almost doesn't matter how long your TA stays up. Don't be afraid to use those TA's as they come in unless you are lining up burst.

The dot confusion is an issue because of the lack of a good UI when it comes to debuffs and personal dots (warcraft has bigger ones). Should have something on the debuff that makes it different than the stronger version IMO.

Fortunately with 2.0 the weaker version looks greyed out compared to the strong one. I can't wait for the patch to drop - lethality op is already one of my favorite specs/playstyles on live. Being able to open with a mez then proceed to dot up and lay down EP is just nasty.

Anyway, nice video. Personally I run with about 95% ranged accuracy, but I'll give higher surge a try and see how it compares.

Your spec is kind of iffy in my opinion. Giving up the aoe slow for an additional cleanse (have you tried cleansing the stuns it mostly works if it doesn't work Evasion always brakes roots) is kind of stupid... I find myself loosing targets if the AoE slow isn't up... I suppose you can use Sever Tendon but a Frag Grenade is usually followed by a corrosive grenade in which case the AoE slow would be necessary. I have been thinking about taking points out of lingering toxins but I find it so very useful for stealth classes in general (if they cleanse dots can be reapplied in which case you can finish off the target)

 

Another thing Ravashakk do you think taking a point out of Imperial Brew and putting one point into medical consultant necessary (I do find myself missing it.. I switched to your spec the other night, and I find myself avg. 750 dps plus but I do miss the extended time on my TA's.)

 

***** I am new to operative I just got him to fifty two weeks ago but I am up to learning to any tips and/or criticism would be appreciated.

I love my third snare/root breaker. aoe slow is for noobs. - Vomitspit :> ( the reason i take the extra snare/rootbreaker is because I save evasion to cleanse dots that Toxin Scan has no effect on, not to break snares/roots. Evasion can cleanse MULTIPLE dots, another reason why I like to save it rather than use it just to cleanse a root/snare. Evasion is key to taking down Powertechs by making it very difficult to do dot dmg and hit you with railshot ( pt puts dot on you, toxin scan immediately, he puts it back on, evasion immediately which removes the dot and will make the railshot miss after he puts his dot on you the third time due to the 100% chance to dodge white dmg). Toxin Scan also doesnt cleanse some snares/roots, whereas Counterstike removes all movement impairing effects. Being able to use Toxin Scan, Evasion, and Countermeasures at the correct times (ex; using countermeasures when you know Toxin Scan won't work and using evasion to cleanse a dot that Toxin scan has no effect on) will keep pretty much ALL dots and snares/roots off you, making you very mobile and bolstering our lame defense. I'm a strong proponent of putting 2 points in Counterstrike.

i also believe having at least 1 point in medical consult is a must(i think my current spec has 3 points in med consult, but i usually run with 2 points). You can shiv on cooldown to gain/maintain TA, but what's the point if you lose it after being CC'd for a couple seconds. Losing a stack of TA everytime youre cc'd for 3-4 seconds (in a game where cc is abundant) cripples this spec.

I'll upload more leth gameplay videos when I'm off break so you know this isn't coming from somebody who can't play the spec. I like to think im well versed on the subject of lethality PvP. lol

also, imy Insanus haha

also ****in hype for 2.0 leth.

Here's my main spec : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McMZhZhrbkrMhdGR.2

my spec for huttball: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McMZbZhrbkrrhdrR.2 try this if you want the aoe slow AND extra root/snarebreaker

my current spec and will probably become my main spec until 2.0 comes out : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MccZbZhrbkrMhdGR.2 (able to generate 2 stacks of TA at mid in Civil War with KI and have it last all the way to one of the side nodes to burst somebody down faster than a concealment OP to take the node is sick. TA will also outlast any CC)

I love my third snare/root breaker. aoe slow is for noobs. - Vomitspit :> ( the reason i take the extra snare/rootbreaker is because I save evasion to cleanse dots that Toxin Scan has no effect on, not to break snares/roots. Evasion can cleanse MULTIPLE dots, another reason why I like to save it rather than use it just to cleanse a root/snare. Evasion is key to taking down Powertechs by making it very difficult to do dot dmg and hit you with railshot ( pt puts dot on you, toxin scan immediately, he puts it back on, evasion immediately which removes the dot and will make the railshot miss after he puts his dot on you the third time due to the 100% chance to dodge white dmg). Toxin Scan also doesnt cleanse some snares/roots, whereas Counterstike removes all movement impairing effects. Being able to use Toxin Scan, Evasion, and Countermeasures at the correct times (ex; using countermeasures when you know Toxin Scan won't work and using evasion to cleanse a dot that Toxin scan has no effect on) will keep pretty much ALL dots and snares/roots off you, making you very mobile and bolstering our lame defense. I'm a strong proponent of putting 2 points in Counterstrike.

 

i also believe having at least 1 point in medical consult is a must(i think my current spec has 3 points in med consult, but i usually run with 2 points). You can shiv on cooldown to gain/maintain TA, but what's the point if you lose it after being CC'd for a couple seconds. Losing a stack of TA everytime youre cc'd for 3-4 seconds (in a game where cc is abundant) cripples this spec.

 

I'll upload more leth gameplay videos when I'm off break so you know this isn't coming from somebody who can't play the spec. I like to think im well versed on the subject of lethality PvP. lol

 

also, imy Insanus haha

 

also ****in hype for 2.0 leth.

 

Here's my main spec : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McMZhZhrbkrMhdGR.2

 

my spec for huttball: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McMZbZhrbkrrhdrR.2 try this if you want the aoe slow AND extra root/snarebreaker

 

my current spec and will probably become my main spec until 2.0 comes out : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MccZbZhrbkrMhdGR.2 (able to generate 2 stacks of TA at mid in Civil War with KI and have it last all the way to one of the side nodes to burst somebody down faster than a concealment OP to take the node is sick. TA will also outlast any CC)

I don't tend to sit on my TAs so they rarely fall off even with cc. Now if someone is prone to saving them then it would become problematic.

You talk about aoe snare talent being horrible, but I hope you change your mind in 2.0. Spammable 5 target aoe slow is too good to pass up.

Also you'd give up 6% dmg on dart for 1 more point in med consult? To each their own I guess.

I don't tend to sit on my TAs so they rarely fall off even with cc. Now if someone is prone to saving them then it would become problematic.

 

You talk about aoe snare talent being horrible, but I hope you change your mind in 2.0. Spammable 5 target aoe slow is too good to pass up.

 

Also you'd give up 6% dmg on dart for 1 more point in med consult? To each their own I guess.

I know talent boxes that give you + % increase in damage are attractive, but it's not all about damage. 6% on dart is not losing much. You get a 500k dmg game, which is not uncommon, let's say that 200k is from dart damage. Put in that extra point for 6% damage and you'd only gain 18k damage. So yes, I'd take the extra 2 seconds over the 18k dart damage any day. I'd even take an extra one second over that %6.

Like i said, I think having 2 points in med consult is mandatory. It changes the way the class plays drastically, for the better.

I know talent boxes that give you + % increase in damage are attractive, but it's not all about damage. 6% on dart is not losing much. You get a 500k dmg game, which is not uncommon, let's say that 200k is from dart damage. Put in that extra point for 6% damage and you'd only gain 18k damage. So yes, I'd take the extra 2 seconds over the 18k dart damage any day. I'd even take an extra one second over that %6.

 

Like i said, I think having 2 points in med consult is mandatory. It changes the way the class plays drastically, for the better.

As I said, to each their own. I'll continue doing more dmg, and you'll continue having longer TA durations.

The extra damage I get from the extra duration far outweighs your measly 6%. Not to mention the DMG boost I get from having a stack of ta on me most of the time.(2% per stack) so I'll be doing more damage than you and have all my goodies. Play the spec a bit more.

I'll play along. So if I use my TA before it expires, as do you (with longer duration), how exactly does your cull do more dmg than mine? I've already said TAs falling off is not an issue for me, so don't use that as a reason.

As for leaving a TA on for 2% more dmg....you are gimping yourself if you are leaving TAs up and not culling. This isn't healing where it is better to keep 1 up at all times.

I'd love to see your proof of knowing the spec better than I. Any SS's or videos you'd like to present? I mean, you can't come off like you are and NOT have something to back your claims up, can you? Otherwise, you're just a forum theorycrafter with no weight behind your posts.

http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=mlbGIEpfaPE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmlbGIEpfaPE

I think you're in denial about never losing any TA. I know it happens to you all the time.

Our culls will be equal, but at the end of the game I get off more culls than you. More damage. Of course duration doesn't directly increase damage.

Only time I save ta is when there's no good reason to use it. I use it first chance i get at the ideal times AND still have stacks on me.

Do you cull people who only have one dot on them? If there's nobody in range to shiv, stim boost is up and on cool down, what do you do? Watch your extra 2 or 4% DMG dissapear in 3seconds?

The thing is I'll have 2 stacks of ta with stim boost up and on cooldown and nobody around to ideally cull.( dart on them but not corrosive grenade). In that situation. I'm using non poison attacks with a DMG boost(ta), you'll be running with no stacks and having to shiv. Once c.grenade is off cool down. I just cull,cull, shiv,cull and you'll just shiv and cull. I do substantially more damage. 300 to 600k most games when I'm not constantly attacking the off node. I hurt the epeens of most skilled marauders and power techs constantly. I love putting the agent symbol at the top of the damage boards

Enjoy the video. I'll upload all my games with commentary after my break. I've got plenty of as and vids of me doing 300k+ dmg and 3+ solo kills to share. However, i Won't be at my desktop till sunday.

I'd like to see some unedited gameplay of yours. I wanna see how many culls you miss out on per game

http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=mlbGIEpfaPE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmlbGIEpfaPE

When I click the link it goes to the youtube front page. *shrug*

I think you're in denial about never losing any TA. I know it happens to you all the time.

I was referring to letting TA drop off by running its full duration during a time I would want a cull. I mean, if you are talking about a time where I use a cull on my last TA that isn't letting it drop off, I'm intentionally getting rid of it. The amount of times where it runs the duration and I'm actively trying to setup burst or just cull is very little.

Our culls will be equal, but at the end of the game I get off more culls than you. More damage. Of course duration doesn't directly increase damage.

Let's say, for argument sake that I lose 10 TAs a game unintentionally when I could have culled. Out of those 10, let's say that the additional time would have made a difference and gave you 6-7 extra culls over me. On average, that would be in the upper 20ks into 30k extra dmg.

The 6% extra dmg from corrosive dart in a 700k dmg game would be around 19-20k extra dmg (assuming 45% total dmg is from dart, which is probably low in some games). You're losing ~275 on average per backstab, and 300+ on hidden strikes. If you backstab every 20 seconds on average, that's still almost 13k dmg.

I know these may seem like a lot of random numbers, but I assure you that even in the worst case, the extra dmg you might get isn't worth the loss of dmg you have when burst is being lined up. My dot ticks harder, my backstab crits more.....I'm going to kill things more efficiently outside of your scenario of me being chain CC'ed for 8-10 seconds. Even then, the loss isn't worth the 2-3 talent points in that tree.

Do you cull people who only have one dot on them? If there's nobody in range to shiv, stim boost is up and on cool down, what do you do? Watch your extra 2 or 4% DMG dissapear in 3seconds?

4% dmg? Plz don't tell you me you think TA's 2% dmg bonus stacks....It is kind of hard to take anything you say seriously when you don't know the basics. Maybe YOU should play the class more. lawl

I do substantially more damage. 300 to 600k most games when I'm not constantly attacking the off node. I hurt the epeens of most skilled marauders and power techs constantly. I love putting the agent symbol at the top of the damage boards

Want to compare SS's? I want to see your "substantially more damage" SSs, please.

Enjoy the video. I'll upload all my games with commentary after my break. I've got plenty of as and vids of me doing 300k+ dmg and 3+ solo kills to share. However, i Won't be at my desktop till sunday.

Why are you bragging about solo kills as a lethality operative? Sounds like you picked the wrong spec. How about you show me the vids/SSs of you getting a lot of KBs....you know, the thing that gives and refreshes TAs?

Don't get me wrong, congratulations on you getting your 300k dmg medal.

(2% per stack on all DMG rather than on one ability)

I didn't catch this the first time, but now it is all too clear. Hahaha

So I misunderstood the ability description, so what? The ability descriptions aren't exactly 100% clear so I was mislead and didn't do any research.

Youre bending your math to favor your argument. I do t agree with your numbers at all.

As for KBS, putting dart on everyone in the area and culling people below 30% health is all you have to do to get kbs. Which is what anybody plauing this spec should be doing. We should be getting the same number of KBS.

I will have fun getting my 300k medal every single match, I posted it as a minimum, I usually get that medal before the match is half over. I get my fair share of 600k+ games, you should know numbers like that aren't uncommon. And solo kills, you're mad because you can't get em. Play this class a bit more and you can solo and burst better than concealment without all the issues associated with concealment I think ive gotten 14 solo kills before in a game. I play this class however I'm feeling, I succeed as a solo kill node capper ( like in the video above) and as aoe DPS. That's why I love this spec.

Like I said, upload some unedited gameplay for me to watch.

I think we got off on the wrong foot and I've learned a lot from this discussion. Thank you for helping me improve my game.