WoW is still a thriving game, this one is not... maybe it was a mistake to make an MMO that pandered to single player gamers.

I'm not saying WoW isn't thriving, I'm saying WoW doesn't have single player story content so the comment "you're stupid if you play an MMO for SP content" would fit for a game like WoW but not SWtOR. But yeah, SWtOR probably should have been a single player game rather than an MMO.

What you conveniently and dishonestly fail to mention is that the Class Stories - which were THE BIGGEST selling point of this game, were ALWAYS designed to be Solo.

 

This game was at launch, and has been for most of its existence quite clearly a Solo-Centric MMORPG.

 

Yes, it went too far, and left the Group Players hanging with nothing to do for far too long.

 

But anyone who signed up to this game expecting the same level of Group Content as most other MMORPGs unfortunately chose the wrong game.

 

All The Best

I can not say I agree with you here. The biggest selling point imo has always been "it's STAR WARS". The guild I was playing WoW with transferred in its entirety (62 members) just because it was Star Wars. Although you can do all your class quests and planet quests in a solo format, the game encourages you to group. You know, the whole social rank thing. I know that none of the other 61 players I came over with came because of "solo class stories" and you will have a difficult time convincing me that the majority came because of solo stories. We were not even aware before we started playing that it would be partially solo. Even then we did group up to explore the galaxy and quickly learned to just not have a class heavy group.

What you conveniently and dishonestly fail to mention is that the Class Stories - which were THE BIGGEST selling point of this game, were ALWAYS designed to be Solo.

 

This game was at launch, and has been for most of its existence quite clearly a Solo-Centric MMORPG.

 

Yes, it went too far, and left the Group Players hanging with nothing to do for far too long.

 

But anyone who signed up to this game expecting the same level of Group Content as most other MMORPGs unfortunately chose the wrong game.

 

All The Best

I can not say I agree with you here. The biggest selling point imo has always been "it's STAR WARS". The guild I was playing WoW with transferred in its entirety (62 members) just because it was Star Wars. Although you can do all your class quests and planet quests in a solo format, the game encourages you to group. You know, the whole social rank thing. I know that none of the other 61 players I came over with came because of "solo class stories" and you will have a difficult time convincing me that the majority came because of solo stories. We were not even aware before we started playing that it would be partially solo. Even then we did group up to explore the galaxy and quickly learned to just not have a class heavy group.

I think you're both right, truthfully and I'm going to add a little. SWTOR's biggest selling points, from what I remember during the pre-game hype up until launch was:

1. Star Wars: It's the only Star Wars MMO video game
   
2. Story: I tie this with 1. It's Bioware telling multiple stories. Bioware's claim to fame was specifically it's video games being interactive stories at the core, with many endings and possibilities throughout the tale
   
3. In follow to 1-2, this was marketed as KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7+. Even with BW saying that people still want KOTOR 3, but many I think bought that this game KOTOR 3+ and ran with it
   
4. I guess people needed a break from WOW and they thought SWTOR would be similar but different enough. I do remember many saying SWTOR= WOW killer. I think the moment the focus of a game is beating WoW, it's doomed to disappoint.
   

I can not say I agree with you here. The biggest selling point imo has always been "it's STAR WARS". The guild I was playing WoW with transferred in its entirety (62 members) just because it was Star Wars. Although you can do all your class quests and planet quests in a solo format, the game encourages you to group. You know, the whole social rank thing. I know that none of the other 61 players I came over with came because of "solo class stories" and you will have a difficult time convincing me that the majority came because of solo stories. We were not even aware before we started playing that it would be partially solo. Even then we did group up to explore the galaxy and quickly learned to just not have a class heavy group.

The sidequests and flashpoints can be done as a group but the class stories and expansions are single player only. You can join someone in their instance to help with combat if you like but it only counts for one person and the observer doesn't get to make any choices or show up in the cutscenes. You can like or dislike the previous single player focus, that's all up to opinion but you can't deny that the single player BioWare class stories with fully voiced protagonist, unique set of companions for each class, romances, moral choices, etc...was the focus at launch and for years afterwards. That was what the most time and resources went into and what was marketed most heavily. It's what existing BioWare fans came for. They've changed their focus away from single player story stuff and more towards generic MMO combat stuff this past year but that is a recent development. I can see some people trying the game solely for the Star Wars name but I can't see that kind of person staying for long once they see what the game actually is.

The sidequests and flashpoints can be done as a group but the class stories and expansions are single player only. You can join someone in their instance to help with combat if you like but it only counts for one person and the observer doesn't get to make any choices or show up in the cutscenes. You can like or dislike the previous single player focus, that's all up to opinion but you can't deny that the single player BioWare class stories with fully voiced protagonist, unique set of companions for each class, romances, moral choices, etc...was the focus at launch and for years afterwards. That was what the most time and resources went into and what was marketed most heavily. It's what existing BioWare fans came for. They've changed their focus away from single player story stuff and more towards generic MMO combat stuff this past year but that is a recent development. I can see some people trying the game solely for the Star Wars name but I can't see that kind of person staying for long once they see what the game actually is.

And yet here I and my guild are, still here. There are maybe 6 class quests designed as solo play per planet. Yes, only one person can progress in a class phase but as I said, don't go class heavy. If 6 quests per planet make the game for you, nice, but to claim that the majority of the players came only because of those few quests on 11 planets, that's stretching the truth imo.

I am starting to think pushing through small pieces of things here or there isnt in the best interest of the game.

Quality over quantity right?

In trying to push through story content with other content, trying to push through KoTFE and KoTET as fast as it was some of it feels rushed.

Its better to wait and deliver quality.

Trust in your writers. If they write certain details for a scene for example, chances are very high the scene needs those details, don't release it until you can include it all. Not just tiny majorly snipped down pieces with all the real detail missing.

People will always be willing to wait if they know what they are going to get will be of high quality.

Also give animators more time to add more animation detail to the scenes, these are equally important for the over all experience. Don't under estimate the importance of details in story telling.

Although i agree with you at length i'm begining to feel more inclined to do solo stuff than group content, will explain why :

 

- the new group system that queues low level player with level 70 players in the same flashpoint is a disaster, some times. Why? First the low level player doesn't have all his abilities or even the required ones, so most time he won't help much, second the gear boost isn't helpful for someone that just started playing the game, if, by chance, that person gets aggro and you can't taunt back, he dies, if he is not accostumed to mmo tactics and bosses, he dies. Overall this new system is really bad. Although the new fp has a lot of issues tried to do it, and accomplished after almost 2 hours for each run, with some low level pugs. Some just didn't care and waited for me to clear everything while they waited, other times thye were just killing themselves and pulling everything they could.

 

-when i do hard modes with just level 70 this does not unsettle me, because most times ppl are competent, and this is how it should be, heard mode fp for level 70, not level 50 trolls

 

- the player average skill has decreased a lot, so in some fp's i end up doing everything while other ppl just don't do nothing. Yesterday a tank told me, and i'm a dps, that i could tank and kill adds on the new fp because my gear was better... this kind of behaviour is obnoxious. Even though i'm already used to do, most times, everything by myself i think that when the tank just doesn't give a crap about doing his own job it just goes to another level of stupidity.

 

-not only this but recently i did a hammer station with a guild that has been marked already by me, the guy wanted me to loot the creds and random items that the enemies droped so he could scavenge the enemies, i told him i did not want to loot stuff, because he could do it. Since i did not loot the enemies so he could scavenge he kicked me from the group. He basically forced me to do stuff for him, since i did not ablige to it he kicked me

 

This is why i m less inclined to do group content by the day. Even if you report ppl who behave in a childish way bioware can't do anything and won't do anything, they will just say measures will be taken. First why can't they do anything: low subs at the moment so they can't start kicking ppl, why won't they do something ? They really aren't interested...:rak_04:

 

Also mate it isn't a problem of choosing the wrong game to do group stuff, bioware completly screw it up with 4.0 and forward and why ? Initially i would have fun levelling with friends on planets, and why ? First it took your time to level, second the adds would not die after 3 basic attacks or close.

 

Level synch is a failure, no other way to put it. I remember going to corellia and almost "getting killed" everywhere if i was not carefull, because the game was harder back when the cap was 55 or 60. Now you just steam role everything

 

Bioware won't admit they screw up, otherwise they would appologize every week.

 

The game has no difficulty whatsoever. Other mmo's have areas that are difficult, here not so much...

I agree in all the critical points.

4.0 presented us a failed project. Some servers quickly died after that.

And yet here I and my guild are, still here. There are maybe 6 class quests designed as solo play per planet. Yes, only one person can progress in a class phase but as I said, don't go class heavy. If 6 quests per planet make the game for you, nice, but to claim that the majority of the players came only because of those few quests on 11 planets, that's stretching the truth imo.

I expect everyone's perspective is different. People tend to know people with similar interests to themselves and hang out with them. If you like group content you are going to gravitate towards other group content players and those are the ones you are going to notice more. If you like solo content you are going to gravitate towards other solo focused people. For instance, everyone that I knew at the beginning came here for the stories with a side of small group content & pvp. Since those were the only players I met, it is easy for me to assume they were the norm. Other people seem to have known players that came to rush to the end and raid, so they think of that group as the norm.

WoW is still a thriving game, this one is not... maybe it was a mistake to make an MMO that pandered to single player gamers.

Because other MMOs that pander to group players do amazingly well and get even close to 1/10th of WOW numbers?

The mistake was in the entire industry thinking that there was room for another 10 million+ MMO on the market. There never was, WOW sucked majority of the MMO player pool and the rest is fighting for leftovers. And during the time these WOW competitors were being developed, single-player games added heavy online components and MMOs elements creating even bigger competition for gamers' attention.

I am starting to think pushing through small pieces of things here or there isnt in the best interest of the game.

 

Quality over quantity right?

 

In trying to push through story content with other content, trying to push through KoTFE and KoTET as fast as it was some of it feels rushed.

 

Its better to wait and deliver quality.

 

Trust in your writers. If they write certain details for a scene for example, chances are very high the scene needs those details, don't release it until you can include it all. Not just tiny majorly snipped down pieces with all the real detail missing.

 

People will always be willing to wait if they know what they are going to get will be of high quality.

 

Also give animators more time to add more animation detail to the scenes, these are equally important for the over all experience. Don't under estimate the importance of details in story telling.

I think there's a problem of having two distinct groups of players with not a lot of overlap. You have the multiplayer, combat focused people who think the SP story expansions are a waste of time and resources and then you have the SP story players who think the typical combat focused MMO aspects are a waste of time and resources and while there are some who do both there seems to be a large divide. BioWare seems to be trying to please everyone at once with rushed little tidbits of everything but ends up satisfying nobody.

I am starting to think pushing through small pieces of things here or there isnt in the best interest of the game.

 

Quality over quantity right?

 

In trying to push through story content with other content, trying to push through KoTFE and KoTET as fast as it was some of it feels rushed.

 

Its better to wait and deliver quality.

 

Trust in your writers. If they write certain details for a scene for example, chances are very high the scene needs those details, don't release it until you can include it all. Not just tiny majorly snipped down pieces with all the real detail missing.

 

People will always be willing to wait if they know what they are going to get will be of high quality.

 

Also give animators more time to add more animation detail to the scenes, these are equally important for the over all experience. Don't under estimate the importance of details in story telling.

Agree. I think they missed the boat by not expanding the "Shadow of Revan" story. They could have applied some of the elements of KOTFE and incorporated the Reborn Revan as one of -- if not the main -- protagonist.

It would also have allowed an interesting plot line via Satele Shan and that whole legacy.

Because other MMOs that pander to group players do amazingly well and get even close to 1/10th of WOW numbers?

 

The mistake was in the entire industry thinking that there was room for another 10 million+ MMO on the market. There never was, WOW sucked majority of the MMO player pool and the rest is fighting for leftovers. And during the time these WOW competitors were being developed, single-player games added heavy online components and MMOs elements creating even bigger competition for gamers' attention.

This.

Lets also add the fact that SWTOR itself for the most part targets a specific audience, Star Wars fans. That alone already minimises the full mmo player pool. Although you get a few, not many people play it who arent also SW fans, why would they? Where as a game like wow is far more generalized fantasy, not targeted at a specific fan audience but MMO players in general for the most part.

In retrospect, SWTOR over the years has not done that badly, it wasn't so long ago it was still one of the top grossing mmos in terms of funds it pulled in. Be that from subs or cartel market doesn't matter, the numbers where there. Others far younger have done far worse far quicker.

Sadly all MMOs have an experation date eventually- I really don't want SWTOR to reach its ever not unless it comes with a new, shinier SWTOR2 !

In my personal opinion, the streamlining of the game was overdone.

A game needs to retain its "unique selling point", but for SWTOR it was considered that its story was not the unique point, not everything else, so they streamlined everything else so that SWTOR became almost a wholly different game. Apart from the story.

I think that the uniqueness of SWTOR was everything combined, but the team focused on the story too much. The agenda of "being able to do more in less time" was overdone, far too much overdone, imho. Plus, everything in KOTFE felt to me like as if the team wanted to kick everyone to level 70 and wholly disregarded everything low level content.

I still believe that disregard for low-level content - partly because of content locusts crying out so juch for new content - is an illness every MMO has (my guess).

And because of the locusts being so much attention-grabbing, low-level content just rots away. Content-locusts wouldn't play low-level content anyway, or only rush through it in order to get to the top as soon as possible. And Bioware helped them by kicking everyoine to level 70.

The worst thing is that this imho overdone streamlining cannot be reverted anymore. It's like that infamous verdict "iunplayable" younger people put against the old Ultima games.

In my personal opinion, the streamlining of the game was overdone.

A game needs to retain its "unique selling point", but for SWTOR it was considered that its story was not the unique point, not everything else, so they streamlined everything else so that SWTOR became almost a wholly different game. Apart from the story.

 

I think that the uniqueness of SWTOR was everything combined, but the team focused on the story too much. The agenda of "being able to do more in less time" was overdone, far too much overdone, imho. Plus, everything in KOTFE felt to me like as if the team wanted to kick everyone to level 70 and wholly disregarded everything low level content.

While I do think that is a big part of the problem, I think the problem is bigger than that. When they decided to focus almost all of their efforts on story, they also changed the way they told that story, so the story too became almost a wholly different game. So they neglected their group players & pvpers for far too long in order to focus on a story that a significant portion of their story players simply didn't like. For the past two years it feels like they have been flailing around throwing spaghetti at the wall hoping something sticks rather than having a cohesive plan to retain subscribers and attract new ones.

Hey all,

 

I've been heads down on whole variety of things the last few weeks, so I haven't been as active on the forums nor have I been able to keep up with PMs. I've also been drafting the next Roadmap update and making changes based on feedback I've been given and read here in the thread. It'll be few weeks before the Roadmap is ready to release, as we're making final refinements to the content and delivery schedules.

 

-Keith--

A few weeks feels like a few months to me. It's only been a week and I already feel like it's been weeks. It's like when I was 5 on Xmas eve and Xmas day seemed like it would never come.

There's an interesting debate going on here.

Alrik mentioning the streamlining was overdone I think was spot on. The game has become way too easy. The push to get people to end game level cap was too pronounced, and the natural progression of the game has been basically eliminated. The game has become a bore to play because it's simply too easy. Things that are too easy are not all that enjoyable. No sense of fulfillment. Sheesh I remember taking on Darth Thanaton back when I first started playing and that fight was hard, and when I finally figured out how to beat him I was elated. Now though, you don't get that high emotional point.

Another poster mentioned that they spent too much time on solo only content. I agree with that in part. I would add to it that they focused their efforts on story that was too much an instanced based experience. No planet exploration. No side grouping for heroics or flashpoints as you traveled through the story. The over inclusion of instances segmented the player base by way of keeping everyone in separate "worlds" per se. I do believe they need a strong story in this game, and KOTET and KOTFE aren't exactly the best, but they aren't overly terrible either. Sure there's some of each story line that's bogus and disjointed. No disagreement there, but the overall story line itself isn't that terrible. It's done in such a way that you don't even feel like you're playing an MMO and that's the feel that was lost in their "transition to story telling." It's had major ramifications throughout the game. I believe this over reliance on instances and elimination of open worlds to explore is the single biggest failure of the recent patches. I know I'd play a lot more if the game somehow reverted itself back to a vanilla style where we had a story line that took us to new worlds that we could explore. Even though I hated driving from place to place at the time, when I look back I can only think that traveling around was a very important function.

Galactic Command also saps players instead of energizing them. I liked the idea when it came out, but it still hasn't transformed into something enjoyable. The RNG crates are simply ridiculous, and I find them on the whole completely unenjoyable. When I played more we called these things crates of sadness. The nickname still applies. Looking back I don't see where this system was ever really truly needed.

Uprisings: are stupid. I played through them to get my 100 percent achievement in that category and I won't touch them again. If there's one thing that we all banded together and said (since Makeb) it would have been "don't rely too much on too many mobs in the player's way." Yet, that's what uprisings are. And, they have zero story attachment. I guess you could count the codices, but going back and reading a codex entry isn't the same level of engagement as say a flashpoint gives the player. Furthermore, I don't even get why they wanted to deploy this content. To me, the had pillars in game already built for end game: Flashpoints, Pvp, Operations. It would have made far more sense to me to build new flashpoints that could tell a story (much like the Prequel to Shadow of Revan ones which that still is one of my favorite arcs in the game. I thought they told the story well, and the flashpoints were awesome). Instead they tried to create a new pillar for end game, and that just hasn't worked imo.

To grab me back into the true playing fold, and for the most part the friends I'd played with for years, the game would need to get back to open world exploration, better flashpoints, improving or deleting the mess that is Galactic Command (just get rid of it is my vote, but I'd be interested in another suggestion). and making the game as a whole challenging again. Additionally, it'd be absolutely fantastic if they stopped this junk path they've taken with companions. They've whole h eartedly destroyed the unique feel of all classes by giving you every companion ever and then some. They have no personality anymore, no story attached, no real reason to like them anymore. That was probably one of the biggest successes of the vanilla game package: the companion side stories. Bioware games are SUPPOSED to be about your crews and their own stories told in the aftermath of big missions. This game seems to have totally forgotten that fact. Think Garrus et al would have been beloved characters in this game with the way they treat companions? I'd venture a guess to say nobody would even care who Garrus was or is...since you'd play a role in garrus's story once only via alliance alert and that would be it.

On the plus side the two new raid boss encounters are fun. I think they've done well there especially with A and E. Tyth is a bit annoying, but the second boss fight is definitely loads more interesting. I like the idea of getting back some sort of daily area in Iokath even if it's just not built properly to encourage people to play it. And, the new flashpoint is a step in the right direction. the story line itself might have an interesting conclusions even if this whole traitor business feels completely out of left field and somewhat forced.

A lot of us are still sitting in the wings watching what's going on with the game and hoping it improves. I still subscribe here and there to experience new content, but then I unsub and wait again to see what happens. They still have a long road back to respectability. The Ben Irving era seriously damaged this game.