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SWTOR should've been a RPG


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Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

 

SWG Crowd

Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.

Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

 

KOTOR Crowd

Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.

Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

 

MMO Crowd

Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.

Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

 

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.

 

Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

 

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

 

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

 

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

 

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

 

It hasn't been.

 

That needs to change.

Edited by CelCawdro
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Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

 

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

 

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

 

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

 

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

 

It hasn't been.

 

That needs to change.

 

Nice to hear someone talking sence. The mmo crowd is not what keep this game going, WoW and Rift can provide far better "mmo experience." It is the star wars setting and the Bioware story that keep players here, do not mistake that. Start turning this game into a total WoW copy, and it will be this games slow but sure undoing.

 

Keep focusing on the story and setting, and add some classic mmo stuff for the casuel mmo players, and this game might last. I know for sure that I will stay, as long as the story is still coming. I don't mind there being larger periodes without story, as long as I know it will be coming.

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I have no doubt that RPGs will continue to stand strong on the PC and consoles. I don't think tablets are well suited to RPGs. Obsidian is actually currently in the process of making an RPG that harkens back to the Infinity Engine era of PC-RPGs. Once I'm done with this game I probably won't buy anything further from Bioware Austin, they are not RPG developers. I'm still looking forward to Bioware Edmonton's next game.

 

Interesting point of view! However I do think that tablets could be great for RPGs as:

 

It widens the audience for the games (there will probably be more tablet owners than console or gaming pc owners soon)

 

The people who have tablets aren't your typical gamer ie they will more likely to be interested in the interactive story that most RPGs are.

 

You don't have to be as 'twitchy' at the controls of an RPG, usually compared to a MMO or first person shooter.

 

Whet I'm saying is essentially that you could imagine KOTOR being quite easily ported to the iPad for example.

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Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

 

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

 

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

 

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

 

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

 

It hasn't been.

 

That needs to change.

 

What a great post, thanks and I can't add anything else here - I agree with you!

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...Essentially, SWTOR should've been the successor to KOTOR.

 

Hindsight is always a great thing and it's easy to see why SWTOR was made as an MMO. When it was started, WoW was booming and making tonnes of cash per month. EA wanted their own WoW, I'm sure!

 

Whatever the case, it now is very clear that the game would've been far better as an RPG launching with:

 

Two player characters Sith and Jedi with a choice if you want to go down either the Knight/Warrior or Consular/Inquisitor paths (much like KOTOR).

 

Each side would have the choice of two different stories (i.e. essentially the x4 Jedi/Sith stories that we have in-game) each depending on what path you choose.

 

Probably less incidental quests i.e. just the class quests and the main planet story thread quests.

 

The current Flashpoints would be like some of the class quest instances.

 

Probably less planets (an RPG has less $ development budget) and more a linear story-driven scripted progression through them with real choices and consequences.

 

If the game went well, then extra class stories (Smuggler & Bounty Hunter) and extensions to your class quests.

 

I'm saying this as the story is bar far the best part of the game. I don't think that SWTOR ever got credit for it and sadly - in retrospect - the story can't shine in an MMO. I think it would've done in an RPG.

 

No thank you. I've spent xx days in SWTOR. I plan on spending xxx days more. By making it an MMO we get the best of every aspect. PvP'ers can PvP. Solo players can solo. Instances, raids. Great story with other classes aswell.

 

Lets face it, KOTOR 3 would have been a tiny shell of what SWTOR is today and what it will become. A single player game would have a tiny budget compared to SWTOR, thus a ton of features most likely a lot of the voiceover which makes this game unique and awesome would probably have been too costly. Instead Bioware let us, the players, the fans deicide what we would play as in the great Star Wars universe. Without being bound by canon set in stone.

 

Also what you are suggesting would mean every single player who enjoys SWTOR's Smuggler, Trooper, Bounty Hunter and Imperial Agent class could F*** Off. I personally think that is rude and narrowminded of you. Not everyone wants to play as sith/jedi. In fact a great deal of players don't play as sith/jedi.

 

Even though SWTOR have lost subscribers, I'm sure they've made tons of cash to make up for the cost of making the game and after F2P launched they've earned tons more. Hell the Cartel Market must be a great cashflow. I know I've spent enough $ there for a good amount of what a monthly sub would cost.

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No thank you. I've spent xx days in SWTOR. I plan on spending xxx days more. By making it an MMO we get the best of every aspect. PvP'ers can PvP. Solo players can solo. Instances, raids. Great story with other classes aswell.

 

Lets face it, KOTOR 3 would have been a tiny shell of what SWTOR is today and what it will become. A single player game would have a tiny budget compared to SWTOR, thus a ton of features most likely a lot of the voiceover which makes this game unique and awesome would probably have been too costly. Instead Bioware let us, the players, the fans deicide what we would play as in the great Star Wars universe. Without being bound by canon set in stone.

 

Also what you are suggesting would mean every single player who enjoys SWTOR's Smuggler, Trooper, Bounty Hunter and Imperial Agent class could F*** Off. I personally think that is rude and narrowminded of you. Not everyone wants to play as sith/jedi. In fact a great deal of players don't play as sith/jedi.

 

Even though SWTOR have lost subscribers, I'm sure they've made tons of cash to make up for the cost of making the game and after F2P launched they've earned tons more. Hell the Cartel Market must be a great cashflow. I know I've spent enough $ there for a good amount of what a monthly sub would cost.

 

Are you serious? Have you ever played a normal Bioware game? It would still be a fully voiced game, it would simply be one storyline not 8. That one storyline would have much more room to expand based on your choices. There would likely be about 10 or so companions, because they only have the one story to worry about. This was already discussed earlier in the thread.

 

It being an MMO adds that content like FP's, Ops, and PvP, but in exchange the story has to be thinner and more linear. To make up for the cost and to allow it to work in an MMO frame.

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Are you serious? Have you ever played a normal Bioware game? It would still be a fully voiced game, it would simply be one storyline not 8. That one storyline would have much more room to expand based on your choices. There would likely be about 10 or so companions, because they only have the one story to worry about. This was already discussed earlier in the thread.

 

It being an MMO adds that content like FP's, Ops, and PvP, but in exchange the story has to be thinner and more linear. To make up for the cost and to allow it to work in an MMO frame.

 

Yes I've played many many Bioware single player games. The last one being Mass Effect 3. I'm a big fan of Mass Effect, but still I was completely finished with that game in april. Completed it several times etc. It was the same with Dragon Age. Single player games have very a very short lifespan. SWTOR isn't done. Theres far more content on the way, which means the story will live on for many many years. Isn't that a good thing instead of the game being forgotten within a year?

SWTOR I've played since beta last year, I still play it xx hours a day, I'm far from finished with it. I have the choice between being with 42 companions.

 

Theres a lot more story in SWTOR than any single player Bioware game combined. Even clearing out a prison on Belsavis is considered to be part of YOUR characters story. Its not confined to only the class story quests.

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SWTOR is a single player game with the option to play it multi-player. Essentially, any quest dealing directly with your story and current planet can be done solo. Quests such as flash-points and heroics are your true side-quests, because they deal with separate issues not relevant to your story or the world quests.

 

If you wish to have a true Kotor III feeling to SWTOR, I suggest playing as a Jedi Knight. As the story features Satele Shan, the direct descendant of Revan, as a main character in the story. It also gives you this " chosen one, the most powerful" feeling in the story.

Edited by cool-dude
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No thank you. I've spent xx days in SWTOR. I plan on spending xxx days more. By making it an MMO we get the best of every aspect. PvP'ers can PvP. Solo players can solo. Instances, raids. Great story with other classes aswell.

 

Lets face it, KOTOR 3 would have been a tiny shell of what SWTOR is today and what it will become. A single player game would have a tiny budget compared to SWTOR, thus a ton of features most likely a lot of the voiceover which makes this game unique and awesome would probably have been too costly. Instead Bioware let us, the players, the fans deicide what we would play as in the great Star Wars universe. Without being bound by canon set in stone.

 

Also what you are suggesting would mean every single player who enjoys SWTOR's Smuggler, Trooper, Bounty Hunter and Imperial Agent class could F*** Off. I personally think that is rude and narrowminded of you. Not everyone wants to play as sith/jedi. In fact a great deal of players don't play as sith/jedi.

 

Even though SWTOR have lost subscribers, I'm sure they've made tons of cash to make up for the cost of making the game and after F2P launched they've earned tons more. Hell the Cartel Market must be a great cashflow. I know I've spent enough $ there for a good amount of what a monthly sub would cost.

 

Hello,

 

Thanks for the post. Before I go on, I'm a subscriber and I've already bought Makeb. So I definitely support the game and I'm glad of all the stories that it has. I'm an altaholic and intend to experience all of the class stories. So I get what you're saying about people not being able to experience the Trooper story etc.

 

What I meant with my OP is that with an MMO, it's hard to make game changing decisions. You choose what you think are pretty impactful choices in the game but most of the time they seem to be forgotten. With an RPG you'd have much more scope to craft a game where if you acted good or bad people would change their reactions and feelings to you accordingly.

 

I agree that the game would be smaller in scope. I think though that a lot of the current class stories in the current game could've formed character quests ie I was imagining a game where you had no incidental planetside quests - just class story, companion story and planet story (athough in a RPG the planet story probably be contained in the other quests). And of course in KOTOR and Dragon Age Origins you can switch and play your companion as a main re movement and combat.

 

I do agree that you would lose something from that though. It's nice to play a smuggler feeling it's you against the galaxy. Rather than supporting the main character.

 

Anyway, this is all academic. I'm really glad we have the game that we have I just wish that the story choices that you have could've been more impactful in the game :)

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Are you serious? Have you ever played a normal Bioware game? It would still be a fully voiced game, it would simply be one storyline not 8. That one storyline would have much more room to expand based on your choices. There would likely be about 10 or so companions, because they only have the one story to worry about. This was already discussed earlier in the thread.

 

It being an MMO adds that content like FP's, Ops, and PvP, but in exchange the story has to be thinner and more linear. To make up for the cost and to allow it to work in an MMO frame.

 

But you won't have chance to play different classes like BH/IA. It will still mostly be about the Jedi(maybe turn into Sith to some point).

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But you won't have chance to play different classes like BH/IA. It will still mostly be about the Jedi(maybe turn into Sith to some point).

 

Yes, but it's breadth vs depth. You'd only have one story but that ones story would have a lot more depth to it. I'm only really interested in the Jedi story anyway, since it's the closest to KotOR.

Edited by Revanchis
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Sorry. Have you played Skyrim ?

 

Ya, but these people are comparing it against MMO's which get expansions every couple years. They don't realise that instead of expansions singleplayer RPGs get sequels. These continue the story in much the same way an expansion in an MMO does.

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Ya, but these people are comparing it against MMO's which get expansions every couple years. They don't realise that instead of expansions singleplayer RPGs get sequels. These continue the story in much the same way an expansion in an MMO does.

 

I was also imagining a scenario where you get to purchase expansion packs i.e. a little like Dragon Age: Origins.

 

Maybe you'd get an extra story for your toon(s) that completed the original game i.e. like a coda ('it's not finished - we need your help in wiping up the good/bad guys!') along with a new companion and story (i.e. similar to the HK series story in the game).

 

Or maybe if the demand was felt to be there, a new class and new beginning to the end story (parallel to the original story).

 

Well it's not going to happen - fun to think about though.

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