No, the conditions set forth for something to be "pay to win" include making cash payments for things that allow one to enjoy, 1) extra convenience that makes the game easier and, 2) circumvention of gameplay (grinding). Subscribers receive both of those benefits, and therefore they are in fact paying to win. If a person who decries "pay to win" wants to be conistent and avoid hypocrisy, they must go F2P.

There is the crux though, the game went F2P, it was never F2P from the start.

Besides you can buy everything you mention as F2P.

I want to know why someone/anyone that has more money laying around, than I do as a "subscriber" should be entitled to buy the items they want with Actual cash (talking exclusively about endgame items such as crystals and ship parts) Why is your "extra money spent" more valuable than my subscription fee? Why should that grant you special privileges to skip content? Aside from the response "well I should play how I want...And that's how I want to play..."

My response to that statement would have been in the past, This game is not for you then. However Bioware's decision has actually shown me this game is no longer for me. I am done trying to look out for the better interest of this game while they keep making bad decisions. I have stopped talking this game up to friends to get them to come back, and I am now jumping ship. Do I want to? No, I do enjoy this game, but I have standards and when F2P was announced I told my friends when they start offering endgame items (of any sort) for Cash, I am out, I was blindly hoping they wouldn't be that stupid, but I should have realized my 15$ a month wont effect their income with the amount of freeloaders, and lazy people with more money than time on their hands.

And to those of you who are trying to say that those of us who are saying its a P2W with these changes are now Hippocrates, its BS, I payed a subscription fee to have UNRESTRICTED access to the game, how it was designed, that is not paying to win, your choice to not pay this form of "guaranteed" income doesn't make my choice to, a pay to win option. Move along.

So your wants trump his wants. Are you King Icebergy of Icebergland or something? Stop thinking that you are more important than him and really tell us why it is so important that someone can get the same gear to occasionally run content with friends? How does this affect you, apart from not being a special snowflake in your pixel gear?

 

You want to earn your gear, I get that and you can be proud that you did. As long as BW don't put gear in the CS that is better than your gear what is the problem to you?

You obviously did not even read my post, you are just spouting off self righteous drivel. Your level of selfishness astounds me.

Lets pretend that you and I are in the same guild, we play the same spec, and are equally skilled. Lets say a new tier of content comes out, and with it the game goes pay to win. You immediately buy your gear from the store, but I don't. All the sudden you and I go from equally geared to you being far better geared than I. So you start pulling more DPS, and because you do more DPS, you get to raid a lot more than I do.

Not only that, but then our other guild DPS look at your numbers and think, 'wow, I have to buy gear too to catch up'. So then one person and then another all buy their gear. Shortly it becomes the norm for our guild, and the guild shuns anyone that doesn't buy gear. Then all the sudden our guild is the top guild on the server, and all the other guilds start having the same philosophy to keep up.

What happens to someone like me who doesn't want to buy gear then? We get left behind, we do not get to play. But obviously that is OK with you, since I am the selfish one and all I want is to be a "special snowflake".

PS Every time someone uses the "special snowflake" card, it makes me want to punch a baby.

I like how people try to defend this.

Lets say me and you are good pals, we dine out at Burger King frequently. One day we get an extreme hankering for a cheese burger, so we go out only to find its extremely busy today. So we wait in line for a good thirty minutes or so, place our order, and wait another ten minutes. Then we notice a guy dressed in a nice expensive looking suit walk through the door and up to the counter and overhear him order the exact same thing. Then to our amazement in under a minute the manager goes to the back makes his cheese burger and hands it to the guy and he's on his way. We exchange a look, then I speak with the manager asking what the hell that was all about. To which his reply is "today we started a program that if you pay 20$ on top of your order you get priority service and don't have to wait in line to get your food. I return and tell you the tale of what just happened and you simply say "well he's got the extra money so eh what ever it didn't effect me." Or "he must really hate waiting in line."

You see Swtor is like fast food, there are many like it, this is just slightly different, and when you offer special service that gives one paying customer priority service over another paying service, you as a business are going to piss off a few customers. And some, like myself, wont stand for it and take our business else where. Is it still good food? Sure. Do you want to support a business that sees their customers as nothing more than a few dollar signs? I don't, that's why I make a big stink about it.

Finally f2p showed his real face:mad:|

waiting for Titans

Why is time more acceptable than money?

The barrier should be difficulty, skill, ability, whatever you want to call it. Whether you life investment comes from time or money should be irrelevant, especially in PvE content, which has no impact on anyone outside of yourself.

Usually an topic such as this will bring out different reactions from people. I find that this reaction is strongly motivated by their current status in RL. ... I think its interesting to see that players find "causes" to fight about but in reality they are only trying to defend their advantages, everyone wants to win and everyone wants the winning to be achieve by what they can do best.

 

I personally want to be player 3: A millionaire who pays and grinds and has it all... ;P

I have loads of money. I have loads of time. My Pay-For-Items reaction in this game is in no way motivated by my money/time status in RL.

A game stops being a game when people pay the referee for an advantage.

... F2P represents the core game precisely because you can play from the beginning to the end. Therefore, paying the subscription fee to gain conveniences and means of circumvention is P2W under the definitions that have been proposed here. ...

If we were to go along that F2P is the core (story 1-50) game - not the entire game, an important point - you see anyone able to do anything beyond that as an advantage. By that reasoning, anyone mopping floors and not getting paid like Warren Buffett is being shafted.

However, the developers (and in this case I agree with them) disagree with you.

The use of the Cartel Market is the shining example - and marketed as such - for gain of conveniences and means of circumvention. Subscribing and doing the quests to earn items/advancement are the long way around, not the bonus.

Being allowed to go on quests and earn their rewards is the game itself; that's not P2W.

There seems to be no further point in addressing this with you, so hopefully we can both agree to disagree. Enjoy your weekend.

Why is time more acceptable than money?

 

The barrier should be difficulty, skill, ability, whatever you want to call it. Whether you life investment comes from time or money should be irrelevant, especially in PvE content, which has no impact on anyone outside of yourself.

Please read the thread, it is pointed out multiple times that it DOES impact other people.

Well I have canceled both my accounts over the the pay to win items in the Cartel Market.

If anyone is looking for another mmo to pay with a good story The Secret World is good and they dont have pay to win items in there store only fluff.

They should drop the amount of fleet comms you need to get these items, 500 comms takes 5 days of grinding all missions just for one part is a bit excessive. There shouldn't be such a big grind for what is technically a side game.

Agree with that line 100% were are talking about a mini game, they may call them Heroic Space mission, but they are still a singler player mini game..

Well I have canceled both my accounts over the the pay to win items in the Cartel Market.

 

If anyone is looking for another mmo to pay with a good story The Secret World is good and they dont have pay to win items in there store only fluff.

I've been reading thier forums and other mmos forums for the last couple days. TSW does look like it may be my replacement as well.

The other observation is the disfunction that exists here seems to be missing in the other forums I've read through. This game's forums is definately a candidate for the Jerry Springer Show.

You will quickly find yourself with a lot fewer people to play with, though to be honest, I am not sure what the point of continuing to play would even be if you already had the gear.

 

 

 

I have canceled my sub due to Schubert's statement. I will resub if Bioware clarifies their intent, and if that intent is NO PAY TO WIN.

Again, this is mind projection fallacy. You are making a great deal of assumptions based on the projection of your beliefs onto others. I explained why I play. I explained what entertainment I gain from such games. One could just as easily argue that grinding and gear chasing is a pointless endeavor.

You say you have played MMOs for so long...have you ever stopped to think that maybe they aren't the type of game you are looking for?

This is adolecent. I'll not that about it but won't justify it with the dignity of an answer. ;p

The problem with this is that the way you want to "enjoy the game" (I used quotes here because one, I think you are flat out wrong, you would not enjoy it, and two you would not be playing it, you would just be paying it) completely destroys the way myself and the majority of others want to play it.

I cannot debate a point if you are not willing to first read and understand my point without running it through your own personal projection.

Clearly I'm not "flat out wrong" if the industry is moving in that direction.

Either way, there is alot of emotion and excessive drama over something that really means very little in the scheme of things. The sky is not falling.

then why play a WoW based mmo?? whether people like it or not, the mmo parts of this game (ops, warzones, FPs, etc) are WoWesque.. its fine if you dont want to play the grind, but thats what this game is from an MMO perspective.

and taking away that part of the game only segregates those who pay for their gear from those that dont... and personally, when it comes to gear, you should earn it by actually playing the game. otherwise.. whats the point.

That is what this game is from YOUR perspective. ;p

I've already explained the enjoyment I gain from playing.

So your wants trump his wants. Are you King Icebergy of Icebergland or something? Stop thinking that you are more important than him and really tell us why it is so important that someone can get the same gear to occasionally run content with friends? How does this affect you, apart from not being a special snowflake in your pixel gear?

 

You want to earn your gear, I get that and you can be proud that you did. As long as BW don't put gear in the CS that is better than your gear what is the problem to you?

LOL, Thanks for the chuckle....and well put. This is not about the integrity of the game, but personal desires.

They should drop the amount of fleet comms you need to get these items, 500 comms takes 5 days of grinding all missions just for one part is a bit excessive. There shouldn't be such a big grind for what is technically a side game.

Absolutely. I've agreed with those that have argued the balance issue. The Developers have also. Not sure what they are going to do about it though.

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

*emphesis added*

Do people think this quote shows that the developers missed the entire point of the whole thread?

Can you imagine when Bioware said that free-to-play would not affect PVE end-game in any way that they would later be saying "Both the cartel market and earning gear in game are viable options"?

Many people have stated they will unsub if gear is pay-to-win, if you read what Bioware has written literally, they are saying "pay to win" is a viable option you can take instead of earning gear in game.

:jawa_mad::jawa_mad:

If I didn't have so many friends and cool people I knew in this game, I'd be gone already.

I've been reading thier forums and other mmos forums for the last couple days. TSW does look like it may be my replacement as well.

 

The other observation is the disfunction that exists here seems to be missing in the other forums I've read through. This game's forums is definately a candidate for the Jerry Springer Show.

You should definitely try it.

I like it and the devs really care about the game and post on the forums all the time.

You should definitely try it.

 

I like it and the devs really care about the game and post on the forums all the time.

However Funcom are for sale and there are rumours around the internet suggesting EA might be buying them out.. we all know what that will mean for TSW's f2p model.

Pre 1.6 patch all hardest space missions were grade 5+.

Post 1.6 new space missions all grade 7 only ???

See what they done no normal grade 6 and no wonder we are forced to buy new grade ship items and they apper on CM ironically.

There is not much to discuss here. It was ment to be pay to win from the start when they did this choice and jumped to grade 7 adding "Heroic" tag on all missions.

However Funcom are for sale and there are rumours around the internet suggesting EA might be buying them out.. we all know what that will mean for TSW's f2p model.

Yeah internet rumours always turn out to be true:rolleyes:

LOL, Thanks for the chuckle....and well put. This is not about the integrity of the game, but personal desires.

It is absolutely about the integrity of the game, and I love how you have quoted just about everything I posted in the last couple pages except where I explain to you how it does in fact ruin the game's integrity. Bury your head in the sand a little more and just keep shouting "ME ME ME ME ME".