I'm a bit sad to see it go, and frankly, I don't see the issue with having small snippets of paid content floating around the game.

 

Some of you people have a fetish for serious overreacting; as soon as you don't get everything shoved up your earholes for free, you start pulling the "omg pay2win" whiner card.

Yup. Those paying 15 dollars a month are surely getting things for free. That whole PAYING MONEY TO THEM MONTHLY really equals free.

I'll be fair though, maybe English isn't you're first language and you don't know what free means. Well, I'll help you, free means you don't pay any money at all. I know. Silly English speaking people making up silly new words that don't go along with your...what is your first language? Sorry, I just can't imagine it being English as you obviously don't know what the word free means, so if English is your first language...well then...I'm stumped.

Well some people want to point out that:

 

My question is the same, why is the "most marginal part of the story" more important than the parts of the story that set up the reasons for our quests and adventures in the first place? What makes the CM so much different than a bookstore or comic shop? Because it's IN the game? A retailer is a retailer. Access to most is just a click of a browser away. It's a pretty weak argument.

 

 

I'll bet it's the later. The little bit of fun they had in doing them is FAR overshadowed by this over-reactionary response. We are effectively the mean old neighbor lady who keeps any toy that happens to land in her yard. Eventually, the kids just stop playing so they don't lose any more of their toys.

 

 

 

They are stories of the characters we interact with. Darth Malgus, Satele Shan, T7-O1, Darth Angral, Revan, the Sith Emperor, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Jace Malcom, Darth Baras, Bounty hunter Braden, Jedi Master Orgus Din, Darth Thanaton, Jedi Master Syo Bakarn, Jedi Master Bela Kiwiiks, Jedi Master Jaric Kaedan, and many of our support characters. These datacubes offer no interaction, they are just some guy who is narrating background information. The books and comics also narrate background information about the people and events that we have to react to in our storylines. So how does it not makes sense? You should probably read up on those on Wookieepedia. That is why I provided the links for you to look at and see how they affect our story.

 

 

 

Then I have to ask what are your qualifications that lead you to this conclusion?

i dont know to say anymore, why do you keep insisting that we have to pay for extra lore that is inside the game? the Shroud is a new enemy, there is a personal datalog INSIDE the game, not outside(comics),its IN THE GAME, why SHOULD we have to pay to watch it? do you have to pay to talk to your companions? i get if there is a comic book, but this was made by the Developers team of this game, which we pay to play, so WHY would we have to pay to watch stories? following your logic its just go in the game and press buttons and NO lore, following your logic its screw all side quest stories, if its in the game we should not have to buy them in freaking cartel packs, whats your point?

There is no reason they have to be released in cartel packs again, assuming they don't want them to be. We sure don't.

 

I am starting to feel like a battered wife, coming back after he promises he wont hit me any more. You know, until next time that is.

Honestly, eric is very nice guy, i feel that the other Devs would never share their intentions like that, and i do know that they have orders and all, its pretty obvious that the people calling the shots dont care about us and what we think,having just admited that and still going with it?. you know what i am starting to hear i lot from my budds withing the game? is that they think that beyond what was leaked more then a year ago(content from patch leaks from 1.2 to 1.5 on torhead) there is nothing else being developed and that is the reason for the slow pace of actual content, and right now i am starting to believe.

WARNING: Wall of text ahead.

I don't know why you keep pushing that comic book/novel thing. It is not in-game. In-game content is supposed to come with the subscription. Datacubes are in-game content. More than that, they're story content. The Cartel Market is supposed to provide cosmetics. The fact that they've changed the definition of the Cartel Market is of great concern, as it disrupts 25% of the game. The story is why a lot of people came to it in the first place. It's why I came to it. We aren't the mean old lady. We are the consumer showing concern over a product that is not working as we were told it would. But you want to talk about comics? Ok. You subscribe to a comic. 15 bucks a year. You get each issue. Each issue is full of new content that they don't charge extra for. New artwork, new villains, continuing story. We are paying $15/month and what you're saying is that the only thing we can expect is to read the same issue over and over again. That is not how subscriptions are supposed to be. THAT is the whole point of this fight.

Because you and others keep using the idea of "pertinent game lore" as a justification that it should be a part of the subscription. The datacubes provide a level of game lore far inferior to the lore provided by the books and comics. I also keep pointing out that can be had for free (using the GTN or YouTube)? Don't use the excuse that someone else had to buy it. It's a crap response. Who are you to tell others what they can and cannot purchase?

The next aspect of "in game." All the items in the CM are content. Rise of the Hutt Cartel is in game content. They don't come with the subscription. You are really going to have to explain how it is 25% of the game experience to me though. Give me numbers and definitions.

You guys are the mean old neighbor lady. You guys are squashing the fun of the devs and those who happen to like getting the Cartel Packs (like Laurreth below) and getting an easteregg of a little bit of backstory. Now, we can't play out in the yard because you took our toys away.

How did the game break once the datacubes were introduced? What "New artwork, new villains, continuing story" is introduced with the cubes? Here is an example: I subscribe to the "Captain America." I'm happily reading my comic. My comic comes to a storyline that references something that happened in "Avengers #243" Now that is content I don't know about and if I want to find out about it, I NOW have to get issue of "Avengers #243. It's not part of my subscription, and neither are the cubes.

You are saying that ANY game lore belongs to our subscriptions. I am pointing out how ludicrous the argument is by including the books and comics. They have a level of game lore that FAR outstrips the content provided by the cubes. And yet because it happens as in the game cut-scene it somehow makes it more important. I don't get it. I just doesn't make any sense.

My point is that your point is pretty ridiculous given the specifics of the argument.

Because to some, the only important part of the story is what the game offers, and having it locked into a RNG Pack just isn't acceptable when you put in factors like

 

"Subs will still get content free" Packs aren't free. You're paying CC for them, and anything you pay CC for isn't free, whether it's monthly stipend or not. And to even use the monthly stipend argument doesn't work, because you could save up for a year on free CC and still not obtain the story content, as it's in random packs and not a straight purchase with CC.

True, you could just buy all of them off the GTN.

The little bit of fun they had could be used to have a little bit more fun with companion quests that would equal the same thing. You standing there listening to your companion speak. Seriously, what would you rather have, story content they gave in the datacubes that are obtained in RNG Packs, or more companion storylines?

There is interaction with your companion. There is no interaction with a hologram recording.

And what makes you think they had fun doing those? They could of hated it or just did what the bosses told them to do.

Someone had fun with it, or they wouldn't have done it.

My qualification would be common sense.

Glad it isn't all that common. My common sense told me that this whole project required programming and coding that encompasses a whole lot of work. Then to rework something that is working fine may break the finished product (yes, this whole thing is already finished and just waiting for deployment). To go back and rework that will cause a delay. That may not be a problem for you, but those who DO like these regular pack drops, would be pretty pissed that some whiners caused a delay in their products arrival.

That is why I need someone with qualifications as a computer programmer to refute this.

No one said "pay to win" and since we are already paying, nothing we get in the game is free.

Did you just contradict your own argument? The datacubes aren't free either.

.... why do you keep insisting that we have to pay for extra lore that is inside the game? ...

You don't. There is always the GTN. I know. I'm selling the cubes that I received on it right now.

WARNING: Wall of text ahead.

 

 

Because you and others keep using the idea of "pertinent game lore" as a justification that it should be a part of the subscription. The datacubes provide a level of game lore far inferior to the lore provided by the books and comics. I also keep pointing out that can be had for free (using the GTN or YouTube)? Don't use the excuse that someone else had to buy it. It's a crap response. Who are you to tell others what they can and cannot purchase?

 

The next aspect of "in game." All the items in the CM are content. Rise of the Hutt Cartel is in game content. They don't come with the subscription. You are really going to have to explain how it is 25% of the game experience to me though. Give me numbers and definitions.

 

You guys are the mean old neighbor lady. You guys are squashing the fun of the devs and those who happen to like getting the Cartel Packs (like Laurreth below) and getting an easteregg of a little bit of backstory. Now, we can't play out in the yard because you took our toys away.

 

How did the game break once the datacubes were introduced? What "New artwork, new villains, continuing story" is introduced with the cubes? Here is an example: I subscribe to the "Captain America." I'm happily reading my comic. My comic comes to a storyline that references something that happened in "Avengers #243" Now that is content I don't know about and if I want to find out about it, I NOW have to get issue of "Avengers #243. It's not part of my subscription, and neither are the cubes.

 

You are saying that ANY game lore belongs to our subscriptions. I am pointing out how ludicrous the argument is by including the books and comics. They have a level of game lore that FAR outstrips the content provided by the cubes. And yet because it happens as in the game cut-scene it somehow makes it more important. I don't get it. I just doesn't make any sense.

 

My point is that your point is pretty ridiculous given the specifics of the argument.

 

 

True, you could just buy all of them off the GTN.

 

There is interaction with your companion. There is no interaction with a hologram recording.

 

Someone had fun with it, or they wouldn't have done it.

 

 

 

Glad it isn't all that common. My common sense told me that this whole project required programming and coding that encompasses a whole lot of work. Then to rework something that is working fine may break the finished product (yes, this whole thing is already finished and just waiting for deployment). To go back and rework that will cause a delay. That may not be a problem for you, but those who DO like these regular pack drops, would be pretty pissed that some whiners caused a delay in their products arrival.

That is why I need someone with qualifications as a computer programmer to refute this.

 

 

 

Did you just contradict your own argument? The datacubes aren't free either.

 

 

 

You don't. There is always the GTN. I know. I'm selling the cubes that I received on it right now.

Being able to purchase it off the GTN or watch it on youtube doesn't justify it being in the Cartel Market. I am saying that any IN GAME lore should come with subscription. That is not including expansions, which I expect to and am willing to pay for. It's 25% in that when it started, the company stated the game was going to be built on four pillars. One of those pillars was story. 1/4 = 25%. The comics and novels STILL have no pertinence on any of this. Do they offer lore that RELATES to the game? Absolutely. Are they IN GAME? No. Therefore, they have nothing at all to do with the debate going on here.

Ad this stage, with no news of anything substantial in the pipework story content wise that we haven't known for a year now, we're beggars.

And as such we can't be choosers.

Story content making its way to the CM is still better than the warhammer-esque vegetation that's still possible.

Ad this stage, with no news of anything substantial in the pipework story content wise that we haven't known for a year now, we're beggars.

 

And as such we can't be choosers.

 

Story content making its way to the CM is still better than the warhammer-esque vegetation that's still possible.

If you allow story content into CM, you will ensure there will never ever be something in the pipework again story content wise that would be free.

If you allow story content into CM, you will ensure there will never ever be something in the pipework again story content wise that would be free.

Exactly. If we don't stop it here, they won't stop anywhere.

If you allow story content into CM, you will ensure there will never ever be something in the pipework again story content wise that would be free.

Pretty much this.

We aren't up in arms about 4 or so cubes with a little cut scene. We're upset about what will be done if we don't speak up. If the cubes get a pass, then something more will be put in the cartel market. Then something more, then something more. IF the company could get away with it, then ALL story content would be placed on the cartel market for an additional charge.

They want to make more money off of the players, they are a business, that is their goal. I'd rather they try to improove the game so that MORE people would play, and pay; seems like the goal now is to get more money from the remaining players. The devs have made promises to the player base in the past, back when F2P was right around the corner and they were trying to prevent subscribers from leaving or unsubbing. Now they're trying to break their promise, but only a very little, and see how the player base reacts.

They are trying to find the line, and ideally push the line, regarding how much story content we are willing to pay for on the cartek market.

Pretty much this.

 

We aren't up in arms about 4 or so cubes with a little cut scene. We're upset about what will be done if we don't speak up. If the cubes get a pass, then something more will be put in the cartel market. Then something more, then something more. IF the company could get away with it, then ALL story content would be placed on the cartel market for an additional charge.

 

They want to make more money off of the players, they are a business, that is their goal. I'd rather they try to improove the game so that MORE people would play, and pay; seems like the goal now is to get more money from the remaining players. The devs have made promises to the player base in the past, back when F2P was right around the corner and they were trying to prevent subscribers from leaving or unsubbing. Now they're trying to break their promise, but only a very little, and see how the player base reacts.

 

They are trying to find the line, and ideally push the line, regarding how much story content we are willing to pay for on the cartek market.

Exactly. That is why putting up this fight is so important. If we don't stand up against this type of behavior, who knows where they could go from here?

WARNING: True, you could just buy all of them off the GTN.

You assume someone with a sub is someone who has enough creds going around to purchase them off the GTN and that they'll be cheap. They could just as easily go for 5million Creds a piece if that's what the market decided.

There is interaction with your companion. There is no interaction with a hologram recording.

Doesn't matter. Time spent making cutscenes/story is time spend making cutscenes/story.

Someone had fun with it, or they wouldn't have done it.

Wrong. They made it because that's their job, not because they would or wouldn't have fun doing it.

Ad this stage, with no news of anything substantial in the pipework story content wise that we haven't known for a year now, we're beggars.

 

And as such we can't be choosers.

 

Seeing as how that would go against everything they stated at the beginning of the game, having nothing would also make BW liars.

WARNING:

 

(yes, this whole thing is already finished and just waiting for deployment). To go back and rework that will cause a delay. That may not be a problem for you, but those who DO like these regular pack drops, would be pretty pissed that some whiners caused a delay in their products arrival.

That is why I need someone with qualifications as a computer programmer to refute this.

 

 

Hm, i must of missed when they said the next pack was already completed, where did you get this information from?

Claiming you need someone that knows code to refute something is silly, as only a person with actual knowledge of this games coding would know how much work not putting the cubes in the next pack would be, if any. There is only one thing you need to know about programing, EVERYTHING can be changed. It just comes down to how much work it would be, sometimes all you literally have to do to remove something is delete lines of code.

Geezus...be careful what you wish for. They admit trying to sell story content in the store because it wasn't "P2W", just wait until they sell WZ's in the store and claim the same thing. Their claim that the CM would try to be "cosmetic" only is obviously over...I'm just waiting to see what the next "test" is...

If subscribers doesn't speak up, Bioware will pull a lot of these things over and over again. It's funny how other MMOs that went free-to-play are somewhat insulting SWTOR... Look at Rift for example.. 'No Tricks, No Trials, No Traps‎'. Bioware's Free to Play is instead.. 'Full of Tricks, Full of Limitations, and Full of Traps'.

Bioware, I understand that you need money. The free to play restriction is fine but having people pay for story content is just an insult. What you do to your fanbase will reflect. I'm sure you have seen a massive drop in the population. If you think what you're doing is right, keep on doing it and more subscribers will leave.

Sure you say you are listening but it should already be common sense. Subscribers doesn't want to pay stuff for the content they deserve. SWTOR is a great game but your business methods are degrading and people will not wonder if a year or two, the game will suddenly die.

To subscribers, please speak up. If you love SWTOR and doesn't like what they're doing, do something. If unsubbing will be the things that will make Bioware wake up, do it. After all, this is your game, this is our game. We pay the devs to deliver content. We are subscribing because we want our content.

As for the free-to-play route, I still don't think it's free-to-play. The way free-to-play is set is like a demo. There's no way the game is free-to-play due to the restriction. Subscribers should get the content 100% free, not including expansion packs.

And now we'll see if we even get more story content period :/

 

For all we know this could mean, "if we can't sell it in the CM, it's not worth making outside of an expansion"

I guess you enjoy paying 15 bucks a month only to get told you have to pay more for doing new story content...."impacting" or not. We pay 15 bucks a monthly for heck sake....don't you think that is deserving of more than the fluff we get now? I certainly do, especially since half the game we once paid for is free now. The value of our 15 bucks went WAY down. We deserve more.

To subscribers, please speak up. If you love SWTOR and doesn't like what they're doing, do something. If unsubbing will be the things that will make Bioware wake up, do it. After all, this is your game, this is our game. We pay the devs to deliver content. We are subscribing because we want our content.

As long as everything I want to play is available using the 500-700 CC you get monthly with a sub, I have no issues with having to use that stipend to get it. In fact, I have over 3000 CC right now because there really isn't anything I'm interested in. Presuming they sold expansions on the CM that I could pay with CCs rather than $$$, I'd be all for it.

Hm, i must have missed when they said the next pack was already completed, where did you get this information from?

Umm... from Eric Musco.

One thing I did want to clarify. The Encrypted Datcubes that were in the last pack were a part of a series. The rest of that series will be in the next pack that is released, so you will see one more round of the Datacubes. However, we do not plan to make them and place them in other packs in the future. You just have one more pack of what we had already created. I just didn't want you guys to be concerned when you saw a few more of them in the next pack.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric

Claiming you need someone that knows code to refute something is silly, as only a person with actual knowledge of this games coding would know how much work not putting the cubes in the next pack would be, if any. There is only one thing you need to know about programing, EVERYTHING can be changed. It just comes down to how much work it would be, sometimes all you literally have to do to remove something is delete lines of code.

You are making qualifying statements about something, but you have yet to state how YOU know how these things function. My point is that I DO know a very little bit of what goes on, especially in a corporate setting like what BioWare goes through to get from the drawing board to the shelf, just in a different industry. One of my co-workers was a visual design artist and he said our company functions much the same the gaming company he worked for. I have established some basis for my knowledge. Unless someone from the industry can refute this, I can say that you are wrong.

It's not something as simple as "delete lines of code." That's like saying I don't like the white bricks mixed in with the red bricks in this wall, just take them out. It will be fine.

Wrong. They made it because that's their job, not because they would or wouldn't have fun doing it.

Wow, you must really hate your job to think that everyone else must hate theirs. As I've said, I work with an ex visual design artist, and he did make many labors of love. He told me many times that he would stay on, sometimes for days at a time working on something that really put a fire in his belly. So yes, some do make these things because they love it.

Many things that end up in a game was due to someone having fun and messing around, BW may have just taken their fun and put it in the cubes to show us a little fun. Sad that, due to all the hateful complainers, we woun't have that fun available anymore.

Exactly. If we don't stop it here, they won't stop anywhere.

The Domino Theory applied to games. Scary thought. How did that work out for us again?

As long as everything I want to play is available using the 500-700 CC you get monthly with a sub, I have no issues with having to use that stipend to get it. In fact, I have over 3000 CC right now because there really isn't anything I'm interested in. Presuming they sold expansions on the CM that I could pay with CCs rather than $$$, I'd be all for it.

I agree. After all this whining I went out and got a 24 pack from the CM. I'm keeping all the encrypted datacubes in storage.

I guess you enjoy paying 15 bucks a month only to get told you have to pay more for doing new story content...."impacting" or not. We pay 15 bucks a monthly for heck sake....don't you think that is deserving of more than the fluff we get now? I certainly do, especially since half the game we once paid for is free now. The value of our 15 bucks went WAY down. We deserve more.

My post didn't say we didn't deserve more. My post said, we'll see if they add more story content for free or not.

With the way they're going, I don't imagine any real story content outside of expansions now.

Though, I do wonder why they don't make all expansions able to be paid by CC.

But don't you all see the real problem here? Putting stuff in lottery packs instead of selling it openly -any stuff- is almost a scam in my opinion!

I am a subscriber since July 2012 (never canceled my subscription in all this time) and I for one really like the whole idea of the Cartel Market; I have no problem to pay extra for nice weapons, armors, speeders etc. and already spent thousands of Cartel Coins to outfit all my alts to my liking -- but I want to see what I buy and I want to get what I pay for!

So yes, please sell me (new and old) stuff on the CM -even new story content- but sell it openly and don't make it unique to lottery packs.

0.02 EUR

Niko

P.S.: I find no fun in aquiring ridiculous amounts of credits just to be able to pay the ridiculous prices some lottery-pack-only-items have on GTN and I refuse to do so -- but I'm totally willing to pay with real life money for them in the CM, if they are available!

P.P.S.: Yes, I know that a lot of people LOVE to buy lottery packs and spend thousands of Euros (not Cartel Coins!) for the slim chance to get what they hope for; so EA are probably making most of their CM profts from selling hope and will most probably ignore complaints like mine... But this doesn't invalidate my point.

But don't you all see the real problem here? Putting stuff in lottery packs instead of selling it openly -any stuff- is almost a scam in my opinion!

 

I am a subscriber since July 2012 (never canceled my subscription in all this time) and I for one really like the whole idea of the Cartel Market; I have no problem to pay extra for nice weapons, armors, speeders etc. and already spent thousands of Cartel Coins to outfit all my alts to my liking -- but I want to see what I buy and I want to get what I pay for!

 

So yes, please sell me (new and old) stuff on the CM -even new story content- but sell it openly and don't make it unique to lottery packs.

 

0.02 EUR

Niko

 

P.S.: I find no fun in aquiring ridiculous amounts of credits just to be able to pay the ridiculous prices some lottery-pack-only-items have on GTN and I refuse to do so -- but I'm totally willing to pay with real life money for them in the CM, if they are available!

 

P.P.S.: Yes, I know that a lot of people LOVE to buy lottery packs and spend thousands of Euros (not Cartel Coins!) for the slim chance to get what they hope for; so EA are probably making most of their CM profts from selling hope and will most probably ignore complaints like mine... But this doesn't invalidate my point.

I also don't mind lottery packs in the CM all *that* much. But neither do I buy them. "Cosmetics" don't mean a whole lot to me anyways.

That said, however, what one also has to realize is whether there should be "rarity" among these items/appearances in the game at all (and if not in the CM, why should there be rarity in loot drops as well--why not have have everything sold by vendors for set and similar prices?).

If you buy into the concept that rarity should be present, then there's two ways: 1) the RNG method used (by loot as well as the CM packs); or 2) by pricing. What if that rare dye/armor/whatever were to cost 10,000 CC (roughly $100)? Or maybe to get the same level of rarity, 20,000 CM? I'm sure there would be a similar clamor about how those were "rip-off" prices and how only the "rich" could afford them. With the current system, everyone has a chance (albeit a small one) to get one, and if they get one and don't want it, is willing to sell on the GTN, yes, at a high price. But can you imagine how high a price it would be if only those who paid a "straight-up" $100 set them?

With the way they're going, I don't imagine any real story content outside of expansions now.

The term "story content" like so many terms in the forums... is subjectively applied and used in a conditional manner to prosecute a persons feelings about the CM.

One person considers a data cube to be a monumental unlock of valuable story content and therefore a "sell-out" to the CM.

Another person complains that they do not get anything meaningful from a data cube and that it is worthless

Yet another person demands more story content, but only considers story content to mean class story content.

And it goes on and on and on.

The reality is: this game's engine, premise and theme enables the incorporation of "story content" (recognized by most as "cut scene cinematics") to be used in a wide variety of ways. The game launched using it as primarily "class story" content, though people seem to forget each planet also has a "planet story" that flows through a chain of quests as well as unconnected "story fragments" associated with some side quests. The game launched it's first expansion with a large story arc that is in fact a "thematic story" about Rise of The Hutt Cartel and included an new "planet story" story line as well.

So, in context... data cubes are at best "novelty" story fragments that come as a random drop from a cartel pack. Yet some people who are anti-CM use them as a soap box to rage about the CM. Which is a silly over-reaction IMO. Others who want more class story use them as a soap box to rage about there not being more class specific story content. Again.. a silly over-reaction.

Had there not been such a rage outburst.. it's entirely possible we would see Bioware make more of these novelties and include them in different ways inside the game, NOT just CM. But with the stink raised.. my guess is they will just mothball the idea and we never see any new ones developed. In other words.. they tested the idea and it did not test well.

Though, I do wonder why they don't make all expansions able to be paid by CC.

They may very well do so on future expansions. OR.. make new expansion still $$, and convert old expansions to CCs. Time will tell.

My biggest issue with this is that the cube takes the place of an artifact slot within the cartel pack. If you're looking for items for your toons, or something to make a buck with on the GTN, if you get a cube, you're essentially getting a "dead duck," cartel pack. Prior to removing the credit boons, if you got one of these, you could at least re-coup around 40-50k credits. Now you get BoP consumables. The easiest fix for this would have been to take it out of the collections tab, but instead they went the most unpopular route possible.

In my humble opinion, they deserve the criticism they get for this decision.