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23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions


snave

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Here are the 3 class representative questions, I've moved them to the first post for clarity. Please feel free to read through the whole thread to go over the discussion had and further reasoning behind these ones being selected.

 

Based on the proposed PTS changes I've updated the questions below as several of the points raised have already been addressed - for the basis of these questions I'm going to assume that the PTS changes will make it to live as I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

I'd like to add here how disappointed I was that the devs on the PTS forum didn't feel that operatives were worthy of having a thread opened to discuss what they were proposing. Whilst I feel the changes being made are a step in the right direction you can only be disheartened when a class so desperately in need of attention is treated (again) like a second class citizen.

 

Also I'd like to sincerely thank everyone who contributed on this thread. Despite our dwindling population we've banded together to create a great community, I would recommend that you read through the entire thread if you get the chance as there are a lot of great people wanting their voices to be heard.

 

I've spoken again with raid leaders / ranked team leaders to get their input on the proposed changes and whether or not it would make any difference to their composition choices.

 

PVE:

 

After speaking with raid leaders regarding the class and the changes it seems like they would be more comfortable bringing along a concealment operative now but they would have to see how they performed in a live environment before committing.

 

The AOE reduction is universally considered a positive move and the 20% on demand damage reduction seems to be well received although all I spoke to felt that it was very week considering the length of the cooldown.

 

One factor that was brought up again was the lack of raid utility and lack of AOE pressure (even from lethality).

 

Lethality also suffers from being a "mid" range class with them having no reliable way of generating TA without running in to shiv. This makes the rotation some what clunky and awkward.

 

 

Possible solutions to this that were given to me were:

 

 


  •  
     
  • Weakening Blast now generates a Tactical Advantage to allow lethality to periodically generate a TA from distance
     
     
  • Increase Operative damage from moves like Fragmentation Grenade and Orbital Strike to bring AOE in to line
     
     
  • 10% stacking damage reduction based on damage received for Lethality
     
     
  • Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment
     
     
  • The free Kolto Infusion for lethality to be used without triggering the GCD
     
     
  • Incorporate the 20% damage reduction in to the “Ghost” talent (6 second duration)
     
     
  • Infiltrate is virtually useless in a PvE environment, by adding something else to the field such as +X% crit / damage / healing it would instantly provide us with some real raid utility and also make this ability relevant (this also applies somewhat to PvP)
     
    I'd also like to point out that most of these changes would greatly help in PvP also.
     

 

 

 

Whilst the proposed changes are a step in the right direction; could you please tell us the reason behind the decisions you made, what you plan on doing to bring DPS based operatives in to line with regards to raid utility and what you plan on changing with Lethality in order to make it more favourable.

 

 

 

PVP:

 

The proposed PTS changes will certainly go part way to making us more viable in ranked PvP however other classes will still be picked above us even after these changes. Madness assassins and Deception assassins were all given to me as superior choices (especially madness if the PTS changes go live) which means we are taking one step forward and two steps back.

 

After speaking with ranked team leaders the general consensus was that DPS operatives would still not be viable for a ranked situation. With the 20% reduction being on a very long cooldown and not usable during a stun operatives are still considered a weak choice and will still die quickly when focused.

 

The only competitive form of PvP in this game is ranked arena where “being slippery” and “running away” are not viable strategies. Every other DPS class in the game has the ability to survive longer than operatives whilst still being effective and doing damage.

 

We would all greatly appreciate it if you stopped referring to “running away” as a viable defensive strategy – it is not effective to run away in arena vs a competent team, it exposes us as a poor tactical choice for a spot versus a class that has enough survivability to keep themselves alive and still produce damage and it is not the point of a death match style arena to run away constantly.

 

Running away to heal in normal PvP is usually slower than just dying and running back, assuming of course that cloaking screen actually removes you from combat so you can heal, that you have no dots on you that will break stealth / keep you in combat and that no one stops our 2.5 second cast.

 

If you would like to reintroduce ranked 8v8 where gamesmanship and tactics were more important your “running away” strategy would be slightly more viable although I doubt anyone would pick us over Assassins (again) due to them having greater survivability (still), utility and far more reliable burst.

 

There are also zero changes to Lethality so it looks like they'll have to sit out another season if that's the spec the player wants to use.

 

Possible solutions to this that were given to me were:

 

 

  • Cloaking screen cooldown to decrease as damage is taken
     
     
  • Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment
     
     
  • Countermeasures (or other ability) now also decreases stun duration by 50%, can be used whilst stunned
     
     
  • Revitalizers able to be used during stuns
     
     
  • Incorporate the 20% damage reduction in to the “Ghost” talent (6 second duration)
     
     

 

 

Can you please explain to us how you find it acceptable that DPS operatives have been excluded from ranked PvP since its creation, can you also let us know why you think the upcoming changes to concealment will be enough to warrant a spot in ranked PvP and why you have completely neglected Lethality? Please bear in mind that most teams have already declared they will still not take a DPS operative as part of their team.

 

 

 

Wildcard:

 

Quality of life:

There have been several changes to Operatives recently that have seriously diminished the quality of life of the class; in addition to quit a lot of pre-existing ones. For you convenience I've listed them below (please note the list below has several rhetorical question placed in them, the actual question is the last one):

 

 

  • The removal of crouch preventing leaps / pulls was intended to reduce the defensive capabilities of Medicine spec operatives but in fact harmed Lethality and Concealment more. Would it be difficult to build this in to a top talent in those trees?

 

 

  • It was stated that operatives were never intended to use cover as a mechanic, if this is the case why do we still have abilities tied in to using cover? It seems to make no sense and removing explosive probe's crouch requirement would certainly make gameplay "smoother".

 

 

  • The removal of roll cleansing DOTs now means in order to successful use cloaking screen we have to also use evasion, would it be possible to build a cleanse in to cloaking screen; once again only available to the DPS trees, or do you feel the need to use both cool downs is appropriate?

 

 

  • Poor hit box detection in PvP and mobs auto facing us in PvE means backstab is very difficult to pull off, especially while levelling. It seems you've acknowledged this to some extent with recent changes but would it be possible to either remove the positional requirement via talents or fix your game engine to properly reflect positions of players during PvP combat?

 

 

  • Leaving combat seems to be on an almost random timer. Sometimes I'm able to leave combat and restealth after a few seconds of inactivity, other times I'm stuck in combat despite having killed all the enemy players around me. Frequently I’ll die and remain in combat for more than 10 seconds and during a recent game I was stuck in combat and unable to restealth despite being inactive (no dots) for over 1 minute. Is this an intentional design and would it be possible to introduce a fixed duration until you left combat that actually worked?

 

 

  • Lethality is still suffering from the same RNG that you removed from Concealment with the changes to Laceration. This could be addressed by giving weakening blast 100% proc rate and / or allowing TA’s to be generated via Sever Tendon / Overload shot (with an internal cool down).

 

 

  • This was also asked previously but seemingly ignored. Our set bonuses are virtually useless. You previously stated that set bonuses were only meant to provide a small damage increase but our set bonuses do not even provide this.
     
    When compared to other classes they get:
     

    •  
    • Powertech: 15% crit change to rail shot
    • Assassin: Increase recklessness changes by 1 and reduce cooldown by 15 seconds
    • Jugg/Mara: Increase all damage by 10% for 5 seconds after leap

     

    We get:

     

    • 5 energy

     

    Pretty big difference in those set bonuses and I wouldn't consider any of those "a slight DPS increase", they're significant. Reintroducing the 15% crit to back stab or copying the PvE set bonus would rectify this with minimal effort.

     

 

 

  • The "roll bug" that freezes us in place when knocked back during a roll is still in the game. Although it occurs less often these days due to the new nature of exfiltrate it is still a game breaking bug and we would greatly appreciate it if you could let us know how exactly it occurs (so we can try to avoid it) and what you're doing to fix it.
     
    This could be solved by providing a brief window of root / knockback / pull immunity.

 

 

  • Whilst the community has tried to understand the removal of hidden strikes knock down there is no denying that we all miss that class defining animation. It would be greatly appreciated if you could reintroduce the animation for weak mobs in PvE only, this hurts nobody and would please many.

 

 

  • Revitalizers is currently bugged, if this is a talent that operatives will now be taking it's something that needs to be fixed.
    I keep bringing it up, but can never get a response on it. People assume that Stim Boost w/Revitalizers heals for 20% of your life over 15 seconds:
     
    (15 seconds /(ticks every 3 seconds)) = 5 ticks
    5 ticks * 4% health = 20% health
     
    But, Stim Boost's Revitalizer heal only heals 4 times, with the final tick not restoring health. So it's not a 20% heal, it's a bugged 16% heal. And, for some reason no one seems to care.
     
    Note: I've tested on both Operatives and Scoundrels, and they both have this bug.
     
    I've also tried this out and I can verify he is correct, there are only 4 ticks healing for 16%
     

 

After reading through these issues can you please let us know what you will be doing over the next few patches in order to increase our poor quality of life with in the game?

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by snave
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Hello there fellow operatives!

 

I recently started a thread regarding it being brought to light that our class rep had now left the game and we needed someone to compile our class concerns together in time for the next round questions. The criteria set by bioware states that in the event of the class rep leaving the role would defer to whoever came second or to the class mirror (Scoundrel) rep, unfortunately all of those players have quit the game too.

 

This is a great opportunity for us to voice our concerns and seeing as I've been incredibly vocal about our class balance for quite some time I desperately don't want us to miss out on this chance. I'd like to point out here that I'm not trying to usurp Scold from his position, he understands the variations of this class better than me and if he wants to return and take over these questions I'd be more than happy to let him do that.

 

If you take a look through the majority of threads on this forums you'll find people complaining about the class in some way, shape or form. I'm asking you all to now take those concerns and post them here in a constructive fashion so I can format them and pass them over. I am not an expert in Medicine, I'm not an expert in Lethality, I am an expert in getting sh*t done and frankly that's all that needs to happen here because the questions will be generated by you - the community.

 

Please visit this thread where bioware lay out what to expect from the class rep program and set your expectations realistically. I'd also like you to all prepare yourselves now to be told to "heal to full" or something equally as asinine, I'm sincerely hopeful that we'll get some decent answers here but Operatives are thin enough on the ground as it is and the last thing I want is for more people to quit because they're not happy with the answers given.

 

We have 3 questions to ask, one needs to be about PvE, one about PvP and then we have a free Wildcard question to ask about whatever we would like. What I would like you all to do is make a post below detailing whatever questions / queries / concerns / suggestions you have, then label it with the spec it concerns and whether it's a PvP / PvE / Wildcard question. I will then periodically update each category and ultimately compile them in to a question.

 

I plan on meeting with some members from top PvE guilds and PvP ranked teams over the next week to get their opinions on each spec and the class as a whole. I believe that getting the opinions of the people who ultimately decide how their raid / ranked team is composed will provide us with some further clarification as to where the classes strong points / weaknesses are and I'll update this thread with that once it's done.

 

This is our chance to get our voices heard, if you're reading this and you think that something needs to change then please post it, it's time to put up or shut up.

 

 

Edit: Updated the areas below with the feedback I have so far. These are obviously not the questions we'll be asking, these are talking points for us to base the questions around.

 

1. PvE

 

Medicine:

  • Considered a good choice for 16 and 8 man raid, no issues obtaining raid spots
  • Performs very well on parses coming in at forth overall
  • Can be "boring" to play due to reliance on surgical probe
  • Generally considered "balanced"

 

 

 

Lethality:

  • Performs very well on parses and is the highest DPS on Torparse at the moment
  • Generally not brought along as a first choice in raids
  • Low raid utility
  • Survivability options makes other DPS classes a more viable choice
  • Marauders and Snipers preferred due to greater utility and survivability

 

 

 

Concealment:

  • Performs very well on parses and is the highest DPS listed on Torparse for the training dummy
  • Generally not brought along as a first choice in raids
  • Low raid utility
  • Low AOE ability
  • Shield probe ineffective in a raid environment
  • Survivability options makes other DPS classes a more viable choice
  • Marauders and Snipers preferred due to greater utility and survivability

 

 

2. PvP

 

Medicine:

  • Features heavily in ranked PvP (both arena and previously in 8v8 ranked)
  • Considered very good in warzones
  • Good survivability
  • Generally considered "balanced"

 

 

Concealment:

  • Virtually zero presence in ranked PvP of any type, ever
  • Good, but unreliable, burst
  • Roll change is considered a positive move
  • Shield probe buff was a step in the right direction
  • Poor survivability
  • Poor utility
  • Assassins generally considered to be a better version of the class in virtually all areas

 

 

 

Lethality:

  • Virtually zero presence in ranked PvP of any type, however some people have recently started to try it our since 2.7 changes
  • Good overall damage through DOTs and burst
  • Decent survivability through shield probe and free heal
  • DOTs are relatively easy to heal through or cleanse making some damage ineffective
  • Assassins generally considered to be a better version of the class in virtually all areas

 

 

3.

 

 

  • Hidden Strike knock down removal considered a bad move by the vast majority of players
  • Removal of crouch providing leap / pull immunity has hindered concealment and lethality far more so than its intended target of Medicine
  • Roll no longer cleansing DOTs means operatives now have to rely on using evasion in order to use cloaking screen resulting in us having to use two cooldowns in order to escape
  • Terrible set bonuses provide nothing to the class
  • Hidden Strike no longer interrupting casts removes utility from concealment
  • Positional requirement for back stab is a pain due to mobs facing your constantly in PvE and poor hit box detection in PvP

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by snave
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This question is very generic but I want to know why does bioware give us tools to do something but give assassins tools to do same things even better? Are assassins only accepted stealt killers? If so what are we supposed to do?
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I just submitted my own post within 15 minutes of you posting this. Great minds think alike it seems. I've remove the text from my post, and added the relevant parts to this post.

 

Back when the Class Representative program was started I created a few brainstorming posts for the Scoundrel Class rep. Here's my Scrapper (Concealment) post, and my Dirty Fighting (Lethality) post from the pre-2.5 days. We've seen a few patches since then, but a few concerns could still be valid.

 

Also here's the Top 3 Questions/Answers they put out before suspending the Class Rep program (in order of release):

  1. Sniper // Gunslinger
  2. Sentinel // Marauder
  3. Sorcerer // Sage
  4. Vanguard // Powertechs
  5. Juggernaut // Guardian
  6. Scoundrel // Operative
  7. Mercenary // Commando

And the one's they put out since resuming it (in order of release):

  1. Marauder // Sentinel
  2. Powertech // Vanguard
  3. Commando // Mercenary

That's a little bit of heavy reading for sure. But, the questions players asked and the responses we received should be considered for any question we might ask.

 

Here's my top 3 concerns/questions:

  1. Operatives (and Scoundrels) are one of two melee Advanced Class that doesn't have a 30% AoE reduction talent in any of our trees, and the only one that has no % damage reduction cooldown abilities. It almost feels like this is a holdover from the "engineered weaknesses" in certain specs, like the lack of interrupt on Mercenaries till 2.0. Can you inform us a little more about the design behind the active and passive Operative defensive abilities/talents, and share any changes we might look forward too?
  2. The facing requirement on Back Stab leaves you at a performance disadvantage in many PvE situations in Concealment spec. This was relaxed a little with the Jarring Strike change giving a small window of using Back Stab from any facing after using Hidden Strike. Any chance of re-purposing a talent into something similar to the Sorcerer's Wrath talent based around Shiv/Lacerate? (Where each use of the Shiv/Lacerate ability grants a stacking buff, which at 3-5 stacks removes the Facing requirement from Back Stab)
  3. Revitalizers was collaterally nerfed in 2.0 with the change to Stim Boost. It went from a constant 2% heal every 3 seconds as long as you maintained Stim Boost, to a 16% heal (The fifth tick is bugged and doesn't heal) on a 2 minute cooldown. Can we have the pre-2.0 functionality and healing percentage of Revitalizers back only changed to heal if you have any Tactical Advantage stacks instead?

Edited by Aikion
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I just submitted my own post within 15 minutes of you posting this. Great minds think alike it seems. I've deleted my post, and added the relevant parts to this post.

 

Think this is more of a case of fools follow the same path :) Cheers for the input and lets hope more people get involved.

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1.PVE

 

I honestly can't think of any problems we have in PVE, right now we have very strong healers, arguably the best of for the recent buffs to mercs. we are very strong dps aswell conc and leth both pull very good numbers and I don't know any raid team that wouldn't take them for their damage. I am mainly a PVE and PVP healer(but I love our dps to death, god damn team wanting heals :mad:) and the only thing I find remotely annoying would be the fact of needing to apply kolto probe twice on a target to get the maximum effect for healing. I always wished we could get it changed to 1 probe did the same as 2 but with an energy increase on it but that would break us completely (or maybe aoe kolto probe? heh now I'm just being silly but the thought amuses me:D) and I'm scared of the nerf bat coming to our heals.

 

 

 

 

2.PVP

 

Here is quite obvious it's our DPS' survivability. We lack any meaningful defensive cool downs which can keep us alive in any sort of sustained fight. Of all the melee classes we have the worst cool downs and lack the simplest of aoe dmg reducts which most every other melee class has. In my opinion some possible changes that could be made for conc are.

1. revitalizes could use a minor change so that it is the 20% self heal over a shorter duration to try and make the heal more worth while and appealing. A 20% self heal over 8-10 seconds or giving a immediate self heal but for slightly less would give conc more time to stay in a fight and give a bit of a cushion for healers to boost them back up.

 

2. Ghost has the same effect as dark swell out for assassins where ghost will now automatically be applyed upon leaving stealth and while ghost is active we receive 25% less damage. Especially with the new changes to jarring strikes a 6 second 25% dmg reduct when we leave stealth would greatly help not dying in seconds and after the 6 seconds are done we can re apply it with our normal sneak ability. This would also give a more "fair" playing ground with assassins who although wear light armor their decpt tree is filled with armor increases and damage reducts.

 

3. Shadow operative elite also gives aoe dmg reduct. This would work 2 fold because while we are forced to fight with in melee range we are prone to getting hit with stray aoe attacks, because of this our health can drop quite quickly. With aoe reduct it would give us a minor cushion and would also help with the strength of shield probe our "defensive" cool down. Abilities such as AP flame thrower, smash, death field and chain lightning( I believe) will be reduced and would make a 1v1 or group fight more viable.

 

For lethality, since it is not as prone to the aoe damage and such as conc is because of its yo yoing nature it can focus more on the dodge and resist aspect to give the "slippery" feel which we are supposed to have.

 

1. Move pin down into lethality. With the current change to jarring strikes we do not need 2 roots in the conc Terran with a root in the lethality tree they can now more properly kite a melee class with out having to use exfiltrate causing their gap closer/opener to be on cool down for when they might need it most.

 

2. Move flash powder up higher in the tree but increase accuracy reduct and make it apply to both force and tech. This would make us more difficult to hit as well as give lethality more group utility and make it more appealing to bring to a ranked warzone. Lethality through its talents and by play style is a more group oriented spec than conc.

 

3. Make combat stims now additionally increase damage reduction by X% or increase dodge AND resist chance by X% while stim boost is active. This would make for a relatively powerful defensive skill on a 1.5 minuet cd and one would either give us the damage reduct we need while the ladder gives us the "slipperiness" that bioware claims we have.

 

 

 

3.Wildcard

 

I would have to give this to our jarring strikes nerf or the lack of a true filler skill for lethality, but since we're doing very good numbers with both specs I lean towards the jarring strikes nerf. I shouldn't need to explain how this hurt our PVP presence for dps and has killed pretty much all of the utility of conc in arenas and warzones, with the loss of an interrupt and something that could knock a sniper out of cover for warriors to jump. Even if we can't get the stun back if we could get a interrupting effect and a 1.5 second decover effect that would be fine too.

 

 

Just remember bioware doesn't hate us they just love our heals so much that they're willin to beat our DPS to death with the nerf bat so they can get our green goo all over them :cool:

 

 

.

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1.PVE

 

I honestly can't think of any problems we have in PVE, right now we have very strong healers, arguably the best of for the recent buffs to mercs. we are very strong dps aswell conc and leth both pull very good numbers and I don't know any raid team that wouldn't take them for their damage. I am mainly a PVE and PVP healer(but I love our dps to death, gosh darn team wanting heals :mad:) and the only thing I find remotely annoying would be the fact of needing to apply kolto probe twice on a target to get the maximum effect for healing. I always wished we could get it changed to 1 probe did the same as 2 but with an energy increase on it but that would break us completely (or maybe aoe kolto probe? heh now I'm just being silly but the thought amuses me:D) and I'm scared of the nerf bat coming to our heals.

 

 

 

 

2.PVP

 

Here is quite obvious it's our DPS' survivability. We lack any meaningful defensive cool downs which can keep us alive in any sort of sustained fight. Of all the melee classes we have the worst cool downs and lack the simplest of aoe dmg reducts which most every other melee class has. In my opinion some possible changes that could be made for conc are.

1. revitalizes could use a minor change so that it is the 20% self heal over a shorter duration to try and make the heal more worth while and appealing. A 20% self heal over 8-10 seconds or giving a immediate self heal but for slightly less would give conc more time to stay in a fight and give a bit of a cushion for healers to boost them back up.

 

2. Ghost has the same effect as dark swell out for assassins where ghost will now automatically be applyed upon leaving stealth and while ghost is active we receive 25% less damage. Especially with the new changes to jarring strikes a 6 second 25% dmg reduct when we leave stealth would greatly help not dying in seconds and after the 6 seconds are done we can re apply it with our normal sneak ability. This would also give a more "fair" playing ground with assassins who although wear light armor their decpt tree is filled with armor increases and damage reducts.

 

3. Shadow operative elite also gives aoe dmg reduct. This would work 2 fold because while we are forced to fight with in melee range we are prone to getting hit with stray aoe attacks, because of this our health can drop quite quickly. With aoe reduct it would give us a minor cushion and would also help with the strength of shield probe our "defensive" cool down. Abilities such as AP flame thrower, smash, death field and chain lightning( I believe) will be reduced and would make a 1v1 or group fight more viable.

 

For lethality, since it is not as prone to the aoe damage and such as conc is because of its yo yoing nature it can focus more on the dodge and resist aspect to give the "slippery" feel which we are supposed to have.

 

1. Move pin down into lethality. With the current change to jarring strikes we do not need 2 roots in the conc Terran with a root in the lethality tree they can now more properly kite a melee class with out having to use exfiltrate causing their gap closer/opener to be on cool down for when they might need it most.

 

2. Move flash powder up higher in the tree but increase accuracy reduct and make it apply to both force and tech. This would make us more difficult to hit as well as give lethality more group utility and make it more appealing to bring to a ranked warzone. Lethality through its talents and by play style is a more group oriented spec than conc.

 

3. Make combat stims now additionally increase damage reduction by X% or increase dodge AND resist chance by X% while stim boost is active. This would make for a relatively powerful defensive skill on a 1.5 minuet cd and one would either give us the damage reduct we need while the ladder gives us the "slipperiness" that bioware claims we have.

 

 

 

3.Wildcard

 

I would have to give this to our jarring strikes nerf or the lack of a true filler skill for lethality, but since we're doing very good numbers with both specs I lean towards the jarring strikes nerf. I shouldn't need to explain how this hurt our PVP presence for dps and has killed pretty much all of the utility of conc in arenas and warzones, with the loss of an interrupt and something that could knock a sniper out of cover for warriors to jump. Even if we can't get the stun back if we could get a interrupting effect and a 1.5 second decover effect that would be fine too.

 

 

Just remember bioware doesn't hate us they just love our heals so much that they're willin to beat our DPS to death with the nerf bat so they can get our green goo all over them :cool:

 

 

.

 

I like the post, but they want questions. Suggestions come after the question phase.

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I like the post, but they want questions. Suggestions come after the question phase.

 

PVE: no problems

PVP: bioware can we has survivability plx we have no dcds defensive talents and we're a melee class.

Wildcard: is there any way to get a stun effect on HS or can we at least get an interrupt and a cover breaker on it

 

In a nut shell

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PvE: I think we're fine and I'm afraid to ask for a change anywhere...something will accidentally get nerfed in the process. Instead I will ask something that sort of ties in to my PvP question.

 

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins get to still put weak mobs on their face in PvE. This means they still get to see the animation they've grown to love since release. Operatives don't get to see it any more though...the knockdown has been completely removed. Can Operatives get the same treatment as Assassins and retain the ability to knock down weak and normal mobs in PvE?

 

PvP: I'd ask for more survivability but Bioware clearly does not know how to add it to the DPS trees without also adding it to healing Ops. It doesn't matter that we've made suggestions on how to do that, well, since forever...I have no faith it will happen. As such here is my PvP question.

 

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins had the knock down replaced with a Stun. This let them retain the same functionality as when Spike was a knock down. It still interrupts enemy actions and allows more control of the battle. As a bonus it now works around the effect of Hydraulic Overrides. Outside of missing the enjoyable animation the skill is actually better than it was before. Operatives on the other hand got their knockdown (from Jarring Strike trait) replaced with a root. This does nothing for an Operative compared to a stun, and is in now way an improvement to the trait. Can Operatives have the root effect on Jarring Strike replaced with a stun?. Aside: I could honestly care less about the one time, 10sec buff to use Backstab out of position. This was never an issue.

 

Wildcard: I like the recent changes to Lethality. Can we make one more and remove the randomness from the Fatality trait? One extra TA every 10 seconds is hardly game breaking when compared to how you can perform using the Concealment tree. It would amount to a slight DPS increase (would still be behind Concealment) and would be a nice QoL improvement.

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PVE: no problems

PVP: bioware can we has survivability plx we have no dcds defensive talents and we're a melee class.

Wildcard: is there any way to get a stun effect on HS or can we at least get an interrupt and a cover breaker on it

 

In a nut shell

 

I know you're making a joke here but to be honest this seems to be pretty much accurate.

 

PvE: I think we're fine and I'm afraid to ask for a change anywhere...something will accidentally get nerfed in the process. Instead I will ask something that sort of ties in to my PvP question.

 

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins get to still put weak mobs on their face in PvE. This means they still get to see the animation they've grown to love since release. Operatives don't get to see it any more though...the knockdown has been completely removed. Can Operatives get the same treatment as Assassins and retain the ability to knock down weak and normal mobs in PvE?

 

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins had the knock down replaced with a Stun. This let them retain the same functionality as when Spike was a knock down.

 

 

I think some one is missing their knockdown! It's fair to say that most operatives are unhappy about the removal of the knockdown ability so it only seems right that it's brought up in some fashion.

 

Just to update you guys, I've spent some time today talking with some officers / raid leaders from "high end" PvE guilds in order to get their feedback on why they would / wouldn't take an operative with them. I'm just about to have a chat with some ranked PvP teams to get their feedback too then I'll update my original post to reflect what the current Pros and Cons of the class are, hopefully that will allow us to shape the questions more effectively.

 

I just wanted to touch on something very briefly, don't want to turn this in to a wall of text but I just wanted to explain my point of view on these question and what my approach will be. I'm a big believer in balance, if you've ever listened to my show or stream (sorry for those hours of your life you wont get back) no doubt you've heard me go on some form of rant about balance in this game.

 

For me it's a relatively simple thing to check, if X class is picked above Y class consistently for the same role then balance does not exist. From there you work out exactly why class X is being picked and look to fix that in order to create functional balance. The easiest way for me to ascertain why operatives are being benched is to ask those people making those decisions (ranked team leader and raiding guild officers) and find out the reasons why. Hopefully this will result in a level, honest and effective method for us to tell the devs exactly what they need to do in order to keep the class in line with others.

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Probably poking a sleeping beast here but I want them to do something interesting to medicine. Not to diminish the dps concerns but it's all anyones talking about and we have 3 questions to ask.

 

We're naturally very strong in pvp and the raw numbers carry over well to pve granted, been that way since 1.2.

It is isn't performance or strength that breeds my concern though.

 

We're boring.

Don't misunderstand, I still love healing on my operative but mechanically we are obnoxiously simple and we only seem to be getting more so if recent trends are any indication. More dependence on instant hots, more dependence on spamming surgical probes. No new heals since launch, a cooldown on infusion to promote even more surgical probes.

No real interaction between abilities or ways to play them off each other.

 

It's making us very samey which in turn is making us harder to balance. Can't exactly inch away from surgical probe when it's 50% of our globals.

Then we end up with weird designs like having two procs on separate ICDs that do the same thing rather than a proc that actually changes up gameplay.

 

So I guess the question would be is the any hope of a healing rework to make us a class with a bit more depth?

 

Despite how well the AC performs I'm beginning to feel like my level 30 alt mercenary has a more robust and interesting healing toolkit than my level capped, raid geared operative.

That feels weird.

Edited by CaptainApop
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Despite how well the AC performs I'm beginning to feel like my level 30 alt mercenary has a more robust and interesting healing toolkit than my level capped, raid geared operative.

That feels weird.

 

I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm going to ignore medicine, certainly wasn't my intention to do that so sorry if it came across that way.

 

From speaking to PvP and PvE players the message I'm getting is that Operative heals are performing well in both aspects of the game and I'm not sure bioware would look to redesign a whole spec that's performing well and is considered "balanced" in order to add some spice to it. Maybe in an expansion when they can introduce new mechanics but I'm not sure how they would do it otherwise.

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I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm going to ignore medicine, certainly wasn't my intention to do that so sorry if it came across that way.

 

From speaking to PvP and PvE players the message I'm getting is that Operative heals are performing well in both aspects of the game and I'm not sure bioware would look to redesign a whole spec that's performing well and is considered "balanced" in order to add some spice to it. Maybe in an expansion when they can introduce new mechanics but I'm not sure how they would do it otherwise.

 

Nah didn't mean to imply anything Snave, just referring to the vibe I get from the forums. Medicine only seemed to come up when people want to have it nerfed but the way it is now you couldn't do that even if it were warranted.

 

Reason I'm concerned mostly is an expansion came and went and we didn't really see any increase in complexity or meta-gaming on the healing scene.

I actually remember when they used to take weekly questions and the healing forum were constantly trying to get them to address the mechanical dullness. They never really did and a lot of those folks are gone now =/

 

Your right though, an expansion would be the time to do it and we have one coming up so who knows.

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For me it's a relatively simple thing to check, if X class is picked above Y class consistently for the same role then balance does not exist. From there you work out exactly why class X is being picked and look to fix that in order to create functional balance. The easiest way for me to ascertain why operatives are being benched is to ask those people making those decisions (ranked team leader and raiding guild officers) and find out the reasons why. Hopefully this will result in a level, honest and effective method for us to tell the devs exactly what they need to do in order to keep the class in line with others.

 

Wall-O-Text Incoming!

 

In 2.7 I switched from Scoundrel to my Gunslinger for Progression Operations. This was a hard decision. As I love playing my Scoundrel (and my mirror Operative). My Scoundrel has been my main since Early Access. And, everything that I've unlocked in Collections is and will always be unlocked on my Scoundrel. That said Scoundrels have some pretty big drawbacks in PvE that I just couldn't ignore anymore.

 

1. Gap Closing sucks

This was a more prominent concern prior to 2.7, but it's still relevant. Before 2.7 we had simultaneously one of the best and worst movement enhancing abilities in the game. Exfiltrate/Scamper was nigh unusable due to it's energy cost when you needed to use it, and almost game-breaking when you could afford to spam it. We also lack the ability, before and after 2.7, to effectively gap close opponents on different levels from us. (e.g. Opponents on the upper levels of the original Huttball Arena from the lower areas.

 

With 2.7 came the new and improved Exfiltrate/Scamper. It had most of it's negatives removed: energy cost, distance reduction on slow, and the randomness of the talented upgrades to it. In fact, the upgraded Quickening/Scurry talent in Lethality/Dirty Fighting changes how I play that tree in most aspects of the game. Concealment/Scrapper got a little bit of a Faustian deal with it's talent upgrade to Shadow Operative Elite/Slippery Devil. These talents lost their 50% chance to cleanse otherwise un-cleansable DoTs (with a 15s cooldown mind you). Trading it for 50/50 odds of completely negating incoming Force/Tech attacks while rolling and 85/15 odds of dodging Ranged/Melee Attacks at the same time. All in all the changes made were unexpectedly insightful.

 

The main sticking point after 2.7 for me was that it still requires 2 GCDs for less effect than a single Leap or Covered Escape/Hightail It. Which mainly affects Conc/Scrap spec. An acceptable solution would be to shift some of the distance from second roll into the first roll via a 20+ point deep Conc/Scrap talent. That way the same overall range covered doesn't change, and the need for the second roll is reduced in some situtations.

 

All things considered, we are not worst class at gap closing. That honor is reserved for Powertech/Vanguard DPS. Though they make up for it in one respect, by having 100% knockback/knockdown/root/slow resistance while using Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line. And suffer to a lesser degree when facing opponents that are on different levels, as they can pull them to them in most cases. It still sucks more to try and gap close on them.

 

tl;dr Exfiltrate/Scamper is good, but situationally can be bad. Also no way to quickly gap close opponents on different levels.

 

2. Melee are punished far too often

It's hard to think of a boss fight in PvE where melee aren't punished for just trying to do their job. Mainly they are punished by taking more unavoidable AoE damage than Ranged DPS. Due in part to mechanics designed to thwart stacking of players in melee-range of the boss. They also suffer when rapidly swapping/chasing targets. Not to mention mechanics that require melee to run out and sit on their hands or those that knock them back. Overall it requires much more effort, for the same net effect, to play a melee DPS, than to play a ranged one.

 

Again, we aren't the worst in this regard. But, we lack some of the tools other classes get passively to deal with these mechanics. In large part, I think, due to our ability to off-heal.

 

3. Lack of Emergent Gameplay and Group Utility

This is a tough one, but we just lack many abilities that bring unique gameplay possibilities. And, the major one we do have: Disappearing Act/Revive (Dirty Rezzing) is practically impossible to achieve in most fights. We did get 50/50 invulnerability to Exfiltrate/Scamper in 2.7, but that's too much of a gamble for me.

 

Whereas my Gunslinger potentially brings:

  1. Cover Pulse/Pulse Detonator
  2. 30m range Leg Shot root (especially good for Brontes)
  3. Entrench/Hunker Down protection from physics and stuns
  4. Covered Escape/Hightail It invulnerability while rolling (especially good for Brontes)
  5. Engineering/Saboteur Rollbanging
  6. Ballistic Shield/Scrambling Field for protecting your group members

 

Just two days ago I saved a fellow DPS in NiM Grob'Thok who had aggro from an Ugnaught by rooting it, rolling to it, and knocking it back into the fire. Which is something you just can't do with many other classes. Operatives/Scoundrels, I feel, lack many the tools other classes have like: knockbacks, knockdowns, long range roots/mezzes, AoE stuns that don't break on damage, % damage mitigation abilities, instant gap closers like Force Leap, and physics/snares/CC protection abilities.

 

While I personally would like to see some of these tools added Operatives/Scoundrels. I understand the need for balance among classes and creating a unique feel/playstyle for each one. So, I honestly have no idea where to start, but that's my reasoning behind switching.

 

Edit: Oh and that damn facing requirement on Back Stab/Back Blast. If I've got aggro on something it's just too punishing, and screws everything up.

Edited by Aikion
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yeah the healing rotation is pretty boring, ive literally fallen asleep behind my keyboard while doing our rotation. it could use some spice but at the moment itll do because as for mentioned we are currently really strong healers and if we get any sort of buffs or new abilities it would make us abit over the top and put us deep in nerf bat territory. I think we can ask if there are any changes planed for our healing tree to make it more interesting because it hasnt had any significant change for most of the game.

 

I would like to see an improvement to kolto probe just so it is a more useable heal for the whole group mid fight in a raid and even mid fight in a warzone because the set up time taking 3 seconds is too much for a HoT even if it is the strongest HoT in the game because if there is any sort of heavy damage coming then the person will most likely be dead in that time or very low on life. The way i see it as is Kolto Probe is more a tank key dps(someone taking adds or that i know will be jumped first in a RWZ) heal. But any change like this will come with what ever expansion is coming out next because there would be too much balancing needed to make everything fair with all the healers.

 

The question could be stated as such

 

"Operative healing has undergone very little changes since the launch of the game with the most notable changes being a 3rd stack of TA reduced cost to kolto probe and the change to surgical probe. While other classes have had new skills added or new talents affecting abilities such as their knock back giving a heal the operative has not. For the veteran players this makes the healing rotation very boring since it has not changed in almost 2 years. Are there any future changes to the Operative healing tree that would add more "flavor" to it or will it stay generally the same. If any changes are to be made how would they come, in way of a new skill in the tree or manipulation of a current talent in the tree"?

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Wildcard question:

Many classes and specializations had recently changed their (more or less crucial) procs from random to guaranteed. Are there any plans to do the same with Fatality? (while keeping the internal 10 seconds cooldown, of course)

 

PVP question:

I don't PVP, so I'll pass this one

 

PVE question:

This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"

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Wildcard question:

PVE question:

This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"

 

That is a good question and a darn good suggestion. They can easily put that in for a point build I would think.

 

I stopped doing PVE as the repetition got too boring. So I have nothing to bring up there.

 

For PVP it has already been covered. Knockdown on Shoot first needs to come back.

 

My wildcard question goes pretty far a field I think. When are you going to bring back Ranked 8v8. 4v4 ranked is boring and cant stand doing them. Trying to build a team to go after ranked and working with your friends was awesome. I was able to build strong bonds with people doing this. So my question would be something like Why did you get rid of them, and when will you bring htem back? 4v4 deathmatch is not that fun.

 

Thank you for all your effort in this Snave. Much appreciated!

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My wildcard question goes pretty far a field I think. When are you going to bring back Ranked 8v8.

 

If you listen to episode 3 of my show you'll hear how strongly I felt about the removal of ranked, you'll also hear the mara class rep Gudarz offer to use one of his questions to ask the same thing. His approach received a very hostile response from the marauders plus bioware have said numerous times they have no intention of reintroducing ranked 8v8.

 

I totally agree with your sentiment mate, truly I do but I'd be wasting a question asking that. However, I'm sure I'll be able to work something in somewhere about it :) Have faith.

 

This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"

 

Love this idea.

Edited by snave
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This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"

 

This would be a great idea but it would be put high in lethality probably in the lethal purpose talent just so conc can't get it because then it would become too powerful in PVE because getting an extra lacerate every 10 sec. It would also probably change the PVE spec from 3/36/7 to 5/36/5 or 7/36/3 toget either the extra energy on adrenalin probe or the extra dmg reduct, but I'm so down for this idea

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I'm not expert on PVE but I have played a ton of PVP as a lethality operative and have been playing lethality in pvp since launch. I think I can claim with a fair bit of certainty to be an expert at the spec and am one of the few on my server who can actually pull off the spec well (the other I know of being VPS, were both on Jedi Covenant).

 

Here is how I see it: Operatives have several fundamental design problems.

-We start off a fully ranged spec but as we level we become more and more melee. Its awkward the whole time.

-Cover is a fundamental class mechanic that becomes progressively more useless as we level (you use it a ton early on, then it starts becoming more and more of a burden than a utility)

-We being NOTHING to the table in terms of group utility. Infiltrate is fun for sneaking past adds in an FP but is never a game changer and is difficult to pull off.

-We are a melee class but are squishier than any other class in the game.

-Our shortcomings are "compensated" for by being able to self heal. This is impossible to do in ranked and a detriment to your team in 8v8.

 

The way I see it, operative needs to either become a true melee or a true ranged class. Our current status as a self healing hybrid of the two is simply bad design.

 

The way I see it lethality should become a full range spec that doesn't rely on stealth, and concealment should be given further evasive, field control, and rapid regeneration abilities (as these are what define the spec).

 

edit: here are the questions that i'de pose based on this:

 

PVP:

Concealment: what do the devs envisions the role of concealment operatives is? Do they see this spec as sufficient in this role? How does the off healing utility for which the operative pays so dearly tie into this spec? On what grounds should a group bring a concealment operative when a deception assassin has the same role but does it better in every way?

 

Lethality: Lethality is a spec that is forced into melee range because of one thing. Shiv. This move is central to the spec but creates a wierd duality where lethality plays entirely like a ranged/skirmish spec that hovers around 10m from the target except its entire rotation is tied to a single melee move. The closest parallel, the pyrotech powertech is also a skirmish range dot based fighter but they can get their critical procs from 10m. Why was lethalities critical proc tied to a melee move, could/should this be changed, and if so would the devs be willing to add the (now 100%) fatality proc to weakening blast and the TA generator to sever tendon? Specifically would the following changes be reasonable: sever tendon now has a 6s cooldown in lethality spec (tier 3 talent) and generates a TA. Shiv no longer generates a TA (same talent). Weakening blast now procs fatality 100% of the time and also generates a TA.

Edited by wishihadaname
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Specifically would the following changes be reasonable: sever tendon now has a 6s cooldown in lethality spec (tier 3 talent) and generates a TA. Shiv no longer generates a TA (same talent).

While I would be 100% for this, there are additional factors to be considered:

 

- Sever Tendon tickles, while Shiv does "decent" damage. Simply replacing the latter with the former would mean a notable DPS loss for Lethality, and buffing Sever Tendon would (over?)buff Medicine and Concealment as well.

Solution: Add a damage increase to Sever Tendon to the same new talent which lowers its cooldown/gives TA granting ability.

 

- Surgical Strikes is talent in Concealment tree which almost every Lethality Operative takes. Removing Shiv (and partially Backstab) from Lethality rotation would mean further DPS loss due to this talent now being useless.

Solution: Same as above, plus further changes which make Overload Shot a solid replacement of Backstab (in Lethality tree; for example a talent - Cut Down(?) - which gives Sever Tendon a proc granting Overload Shot free of energy, internal cooldown 12 seconds)

 

- The PVE DPS Operative set bonus grants +15% to Shiv critical chance; removing Shiv from Lethality rotation = yet again DPS loss, and zero particularly useful set bonus.

Solution: Don't know (There are already classes like Snipers who have subpar set bonuses though)

 

- Fatality has to be adjusted, simple change; Hit and Run suddenly becomes an interesting kiting tool, since the effective range is now 4-10m - would it need some further rebalancing?

 

EDIT: But since the thread is about questions, it could be formulated like this:

Lethality is currently torn between long/medium/short ranges. Are there any plans, or possibility, to make it a true medium (10m) range specialization, perhaps via utilizing the medium range tools the Operative already has, like Sever Tendon and Overload Shot?

Edited by Danylia
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Why not give weakening blast a 100% proc to fatality? Get rid of the RNG, procs from 10m, and the dps gain/loss is almost zero.

 

About our questions: From a dps perspective, i think we are fine in pve, but i am not a progression raider.

 

In PvP, we should be slippery. But almost every other class has the same amount of escapes (rolls, leaps, forcespeed, cloaks/camouflages, hydr. overrides) etc. while having more defensive cooldowns. I think this should be adressed.

 

Wildcard: I want my KD back!:mad:

Edited by quantez
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