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Ahebish

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The dev team has really dropped the ball on our class.. I mean, it's been a couple of months since they put up a thread on ideas how to improve our class and not a single peep has been heard from them other than ZOMG LOOK AT THIS SPACE BS!

 

It would be nice if they actually, you know, COMMUNICATED With the community..

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But haven't you heard? We can heal, and that gets factored in to our balancing. What you should've done is:

 

Get Mauled for 10.5k

Pop Cloaking Screen and blow all of your energy to Exfiltrate to a safe location

Heal to full and make them pay (thanks sorcs)

 

This will only take you about 20 seconds, and all the while I'm sure your team is doing fine without you anyway because our class is useless in PvP unless we heal.

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But haven't you heard? We can heal, and that gets factored in to our balancing. What you should've done is:

 

Get Mauled for 10.5k

Pop Cloaking Screen and blow all of your energy to Exfiltrate to a safe location

Heal to full and make them pay (thanks sorcs)

 

This will only take you about 20 seconds, and all the while I'm sure your team is doing fine without you anyway because our class is useless in PvP unless we heal.

 

Except you forgot the uncleanseable dot that was on you when you used cloaking screen.... :D

 

Ok, so by the community's logic... Take our heals away... Give us autocrit on hidden strike; Increase our spike damage by 30%. Call it even... That sounds fair to me how about you guys?

Edited by Ahebish
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Except you forgot the uncleanseable dot that was on you when you used cloaking screen.... :D

 

Ok, so by the community's logic... Take our heals away... Give us autocrit on hidden strike; Increase our spike damage by 30%. Call it even... That sounds fair to me how about you guys?

 

Uncleansable DOT? Just waste your Evasion and Purge that right off.

 

I HAVE seen some pretty silly suggestions in the Operative DPS Brainstorming thread. Like a toggle box to turn our heals off but increase our damage Lmao.

 

We need a moderate boost to our sustainable damage and a complete rework of our survivability as a DPS. Just because we can heal doesn't make it practical or viable for us to do so. We ARE a melee class after all. It's not as easy for us to LoS, heal to full and make them pay (sorry sorcs) lol.

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Uncleansable DOT? Just waste your Evasion and Purge that right off.

 

I HAVE seen some pretty silly suggestions in the Operative DPS Brainstorming thread. Like a toggle box to turn our heals off but increase our damage Lmao.

 

We need a moderate boost to our sustainable damage and a complete rework of our survivability as a DPS. Just because we can heal doesn't make it practical or viable for us to do so. We ARE a melee class after all. It's not as easy for us to LoS, heal to full and make them pay (sorry sorcs) lol.

 

I do agree with the damage increase assessment.

 

Let me clarify further; there are unpurgeable dots and uncleanseable dots... neither of which can be removed by Evasion.... :/

 

unpurgeables are the ones that break our cloaking screen, uncleanseable means, even with evasion the dot persists, and our cleanse ability is usless against them.... such as Lethality dots are unpurgeable and uncleanseable, unless said ability is used 2ice in a row. Now the lethality dots can be cleansed but you have to use cleanse twice in a row... evasion counts for 1 of the 2 attempts. And evasion does not purge all puregable effects, because some are unpurgeable... :(

 

Sorc dots for example cannot be purged with evasion, and cleanse is useless against them. I think they are more classified as mind altering skills? In either case, it's not just sorcs, I've seen uncleanseable dots from BH's and assassins as well. I don't know what they are called though. But, I know I've had BH's pull me out of stealth after cloaking screen and through evasion after the fact... and without using stealth scan.

 

Point being, this class; People justify our heals and low DPS is fine, yet as a heal class we cannot purge/cleanse damaging effects... that kinda shoots a hole through the logic the community feels is justified and more closely borders on biased opinions.

 

Yet, merc's can purge and cleanse what we can't including our own damage over time effects, Sorcs can purge and cleanse any dot type damage we use against them. Doesn't exactly sound fair to me... while justifying our healing and damage output at the same time... To me it's just an epic failure in logic.

 

But your point is well taken.

Edited by Ahebish
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Let me clarify further; there are unpurgeable dots and uncleanseable dots... neither of which can be removed by Evasion.... :/

 

unpurgeables are the ones that break our cloaking screen, uncleanseable means, even with evasion the dot persists, and our cleanse ability is usless against them.... such as Lethality dots are unpurgeable and uncleanseable, unless said ability is used 2ice in a row. Now the lethality dots can be cleansed but you have to use cleanse twice in a row... evasion counts for 1 of the 2 attempts. And evasion does not purge all puregable effects, because some are unpurgeable... :(

 

Sorc dots for example cannot be purged with evasion, and cleanse is useless against them. I think they are more classified as mind altering skills? In either case, it's not just sorcs, I've seen uncleanseable dots from BH's and assassins as well. I don't know what they are called though. But, I know I've had BH's pull me out of stealth after cloaking screen and through evasion after the fact... and without using stealth scan.

 

Point being, this class; People justify our heals and low DPS is fine, yet as a heal class we cannot purge/cleanse damaging effects... that kinda shoots a hole through the logic the community feels is justified and more closely borders on biased opinions.

 

Yet, merc's can purge and cleanse what we can't including our own damage over time effects, Sorcs can purge and cleanse any dot type damage we use against them. Doesn't exactly sound fair to me... while justifying our healing and damage output at the same time... To me it's just an epic failure in logic.

 

Toxin Scan, Expunge, (whatever the merc one is) are all classified as CLEANSES since 2.5. These WILL remove most DOTs if they are of the appropriate type. Yes, you have to cleanse Lethality DOTs twice to fully get rid of them, but the weakened versions WILL NOT remove you from stealth (says so right in the talent).

 

PURGES like Evasion and Force Shroud remove all negative effects on you, including the unCLEANSABLE Madness ones. You could have more DOTs on you than a kid with chicken pox or a teenager with a bad case of acne.. If you use Evasion, it removes everything. I've personally done it many times.

 

The Madness DOTs are uncleansable so healers can't just cleanse them off every few seconds. Purges have a much longer cooldown and are personal cooldowns, thus giving the Madness people a chance to do some damage.

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Toxin Scan, Expunge, (whatever the merc one is) are all classified as CLEANSES since 2.5. These WILL remove most DOTs if they are of the appropriate type. Yes, you have to cleanse Lethality DOTs twice to fully get rid of them, but the weakened versions WILL NOT remove you from stealth (says so right in the talent).

 

PURGES like Evasion and Force Shroud remove all negative effects on you, including the unCLEANSABLE Madness ones. You could have more DOTs on you than a kid with chicken pox or a teenager with a bad case of acne.. If you use Evasion, it removes everything. I've personally done it many times.

 

The Madness DOTs are uncleansable so healers can't just cleanse them off every few seconds. Purges have a much longer cooldown and are personal cooldowns, thus giving the Madness people a chance to do some damage.

 

I did notice that as well; So if you cleanse once, the weakened lethality dot should not pull you out of stealth, which is nice.

 

The problem is those DPS sorcs are hitting for 8-9k crits at the same time... so I can't justify an unpurgeable/uncleanseable damage over time effect while they are allowed to crit for 8-9k.... Next time I see that I'll be sure to screenshot it since people will not believe me otherwise.

Edited by Ahebish
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I did notice that as well; So if you cleanse once, the weakened lethality dot should not pull you out of stealth, which is nice.

 

The problem is those DPS sorcs are hitting for 8-9k crits at the same time... so I can't justify an unpurgeable/uncleanseable damage over time effect while they are allowed to crit for 8-9k.... Next time I see that I'll be sure to screenshot it since people will not believe me otherwise.

 

Oh I believe you. You're probably getting critically hit with Lightning Strike or the initial damage of Crushing Darkness buffed by Wrath (35% increased damage)

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Oh I believe you. You're probably getting critically hit with Lightning Strike or the initial damage of Crushing Darkness buffed by Wrath (35% increased damage)

 

Also no, evasion does NOT remove everything. That much I know as fact... because I see it every single day; It may be supposed to, but it sure as hell is not doing this.

 

Since I've come back I've been pvp'ing about 20-30 matches/day in wz's... and EVERY wz I see it happening at least once if not multiple times where evasion does not remove all damaging effects.

Edited by Ahebish
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Oh I believe you. You're probably getting critically hit with Lightning Strike or the initial damage of Crushing Darkness buffed by Wrath (35% increased damage)

 

Also crushing darkness is one such skill that always seems to pull me out of stealth... I know it's supposed to be purgeable, but I always get pulled out with it.... and out of habbit, before I use cloaking screen I always use evasion first.

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Also no, evasion does NOT remove everything. That much I know as fact... because I see it every single day; It may be supposed to, but it sure as hell is not doing this.

 

Since I've come back I've been pvp'ing about 20-30 matches/day in wz's... and EVERY wz I see it happening at least once if not multiple times where evasion does not remove all damaging effects.

 

For sure it does. It sounds unlikely, but you must be getting reDOT'd or something. It works for me..

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For sure it does. It sounds unlikely, but you must be getting reDOT'd or something. It works for me..

 

Next time I get the chance I'll see if I can get a video of it... but trust me, it's one bug with evasion that's been this way almost since launch, and a bug I've reported for a long time, where it simply isn't working the way it's supposed to.

 

You cannot be redotted through evasion... unless it's a force user, in which case evasion doesn't work on some of those dot types anyways.

 

Another thing broken about evasion, is the fact I get killed by blaster fire through it... such as snipers, and BH blaster fire. (Unload for example is supposed to be 100% dodged, but it is not)

 

But it will stop force choke damage ticks for example... if you happen to be lucky enough to pop it right before a glowsticker activates choke. Unless maybe I popped absorb shield right before it and don't remember... I'll have to test it out again.... it might be that I hit absorb and don't remember doing it out of instinct.

Edited by Ahebish
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Next time I get the chance I'll see if I can get a video of it... but trust me, it's one bug with evasion that's been this way almost since launch, and a bug I've reported for a long time, where it simply isn't working the way it's supposed to.

 

You cannot be redotted through evasion... unless it's a force user, in which case evasion doesn't work on some of those dot types anyways.

 

Another thing broken about evasion, is the fact I get killed by blaster fire through it... such as snipers, and BH blaster fire. (Unload for example is supposed to be 100% dodged, but it is not)

 

But it will stop force choke damage ticks for example... if you happen to be lucky enough to pop it right before a glowsticker activates choke. Unless maybe I popped absorb shield right before it and don't remember... I'll have to test it out again.... it might be that I hit absorb and don't remember doing it out of instinct.

 

Yes, you can be redotted through evasion/dodge. It only purges at the time of activation, any other dots that get put on you after that will still work. Although, for instance, against a pyro BH, I'm not sure if their elemental dot from the auto attack would be applied even if the attack misses, since it blocks all white damage.

Edited by QuiveringPotato
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Yes, you can be redotted through evasion/dodge. It only purges at the time of activation, any other dots that get put on you after that will still work. Although, for instance, against a pyro BH, I'm not sure if their elemental dot from the auto attack would be applied even if the attack misses, since it blocks all white damage.

 

Purges all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

That is the description of evasion, But as we know it does not remove all hostile effects, but it does increase dodge chance to 100% for 3 seconds against melee and ranged (which is what is broken on it). Which means, ranged classes shouldn't be putting dots on us, INCLUDING force users.

 

Basically it's black and white how the skill is supposed to work, there is no gray area.

Edited by Ahebish
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You not understanding what melee/ranged means does not mean an ability is broken. Melee/ranged refers exclusively to white damage attacks. Ravage, Vicious throw, Snipe, Takedown, etc are white damage abilities. All dots are force, tech or physical damage, applied by melee, ranged, force and tech attacks. For example, Backstab will apply acid blade to a target through evasion because backstab is a tech attack. Rupture will not apply it's dot during evasion because rupture is a physical (white damage) attack.
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You not understanding what melee/ranged means does not mean an ability is broken. Melee/ranged refers exclusively to white damage attacks. Ravage, Vicious throw, Snipe, Takedown, etc are white damage abilities. All dots are force, tech or physical damage, applied by melee, ranged, force and tech attacks. For example, Backstab will apply acid blade to a target through evasion because backstab is a tech attack. Rupture will not apply it's dot during evasion because rupture is a physical (white damage) attack.

 

I understand what you are saying, but what you are not understanding is the definition of 100% dodge chance.

 

Nothing will hit because it is dodged, no amount of accuracy will matter and damage types are irrelivant.

 

Again, by definition.

 

Maybe they just need to update the description to be more accurate and less confusing.

 

But when I see 100% dodge chance I see impossible to hit for that duration. Much less does the description say anything about damage types.

Edited by Ahebish
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I understand what you are saying, but what you are not understanding is the definition of 100% dodge chance.

 

Nothing will hit because it is dodged, no amount of accuracy will matter and damage types are irrelivant.

 

Again, by definition.

 

Maybe they just need to update the description to be more accurate and less confusing.

 

But when I see 100% dodge chance I see IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT for that duration.

 

Maybe you need to better understand the types of attacks in this game.

 

There is Melee and Ranged, which Evasion DOES INDEED grant immunity to. And there is Force and Tech, which Evasion DOES NOT grant immunity to.

 

If you activate Evasion, Melee and Ranged attacks WILL NOT damage you or apply any of their effects (if any).

 

If you activate Evasion, Force and Tech attacks WILL STILL damage you and apply their effects (if any).

 

Also, any and all DOTs, Debuffs, Slows, Snares, etc will be removed WHEN YOU ACTIVATE IT in PvP. There are some Operation Boss debuffs that cannot be removed, period, by anything. But that's another story.

 

Do some research on the different types of attacks. Hell, look at your own in the Abilities Window. You'll see some abilities like Shiv and Backstab are Tech, and will thus go through Evasion and STILL damage you, and some abilities like Rifle Shot, Overload Shot or even Snipe are all Ranged, and will NOT damage you if you have Evasion active.

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Maybe you need to better understand the types of attacks in this game.

 

There is Melee and Ranged, which Evasion DOES INDEED grant immunity to.

 

Also, any and all DOTs, Debuffs, Slows, Snares, etc will be removed WHEN YOU ACTIVATE IT in PvP.

 

1. I do understand the damage types. But I've also played the game longer than most and I know what's been broken and still is broken when I play concealment.

 

2. Melee and Ranged attacks are MOST CERTAINLY not all being stopped by evasion.

 

3. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong, that evasion will remove "ALL DOTS ALL SNARES, ALL ROOTS" in pvp.

 

4. This issue with evasion is nothing new. It's been a problem with this class for longer than most of you even played this game. So trust me when I say this; The problem still exsists, and I know this because I reported it over a year ago which BW didn't really care to test since they were to busy with the Anit-Concealment/Scrapper Crusade at the time.

 

In short BW had more important things to do, like the next round of nerfs to this spec.

Edited by Ahebish
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Think of melee ranged like a dodgeball and force tech like a nuke. Evasion dodges kick balls but you can't dodge a nuke. Lol

 

This analogy is more accurate than you realize; Because traditional MMO mechanics define dodge chance as the following;

 

1. Any and all direct attacks are dodged regardless of damage type. That's the definition of 100% dodge chance when refering to standard MMO game mechanics.

 

2. Any and all AOE damage types are not dodged because they are not classified as "direct attacks." AOE damage type attacks can only be "evaded" by definition.

 

What does BW do? Design a game outside the proven norm which really shouldn't suprise anyone by now.

 

So in regards to your analogy, a dodge ball is a direct attack... where a Nuke, is an AOE attack, it doesn't matter where it hits, because it hits everything within a certain range. Damage types are irrelivant.

 

And if you want to be nitpicky about it; Try this one: Why does force shroud stop ALL damage types except energy & elemental? Which is defined in this game as ranged, where kinetic is defined as melee & ranged and elemental by ranged. Additionally, force shroud provides immunity to Tech damage, AND force damage.

Edited by Ahebish
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And if you want to be nitpicky about it; Try this one: Why does force shroud stop ALL damage types except energy & elemental? Which is defined in this game as ranged, where kinetic is defined as melee & ranged and elemental by ranged. Additionally, force shroud provides immunity to Tech damage, AND force damage.

 

Man you don't know your damage types AT ALL.

 

TYPES OF ATTACKS: Melee, Ranged, Force, Tech

 

Note: Melee and Ranged abilities ALWAYS deal Weapon* damage.

 

TYPES OF DAMAGE: Kinetic, Energy, Internal, Elemental, Weapon* (ALWAYS either Energy or Kinetic)

 

Force Shroud grants immunity to Force and Tech attack types, and any types of damage those attacks deals. For instance:

 

  • Force Lightning - a FORCE attack that deals ENERGY damage
  • Crushing Darkness - a FORCE attack that deals KINETIC damage
  • Flamethrower - a TECH attack that deals ELEMENTAL damage
  • Corrosive Dart - a TECH attack that deals INTERNAL damage

 

Notice those 4 abilities are either Force of Tech TYPES OF ATTACKS, but they each deal a different TYPE OF DAMAGE. Force Shroud will grant you immunity to all 4 of these attacks and all other Force and Tech TYPES OF ATTACKS regardless or the TYPE OF DAMAGE.

 

As for Evasion.. It grants immunity to Melee and Ranged attack types. For Instance:

 

  • Snipe - a RANGED attack that deals WEAPON damage
  • Ravage - a MELEE attack that deals WEAPON damage

 

These 2 abilities are Ranged and Melee TYPES OF ATTACKS and therefore deal WEAPON damage (either Kinetic or Energy). Evasion will grant you immunity to these attacks and all other Melee and Ranged TYPES OF ATTACKS.

 

Recap: Type of Attack ***IS NOT*** Type of Damage. Force Shroud grants immunity to Force and Tech TYPES OF ATTACKS whereas Evasion grants immunity to Melee and Range TYPES OF ATTACKS.

 

Hope this clears things up.

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forgive me if I'm wrong, but dps operative/scoundrel is a burst class right? want to kill someone... knock them down with that stun and stab them to death before they can react or know what's happening, works like a charm on most classes. especially if there are 2 of you, the guy is dead in 2 seconds.. takes just a little longer with 1 operative/scoundrel. However, if said person survives your little ambush, you are screwed, so make sure they don't.

 

no comment on sustained dps. it was always my belief that dps operative was a myth, but I thought they fixed that a while back?

 

are you seriously gonna complain about getting mauled to death? assassin needs something thats useful, they are in the same boat as you, or they were at least. Deception is a little more useful now I hear.

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forgive me if I'm wrong, but dps operative/scoundrel is a burst class right? want to kill someone... knock them down with that stun and stab them to death before they can react or know what's happening, works like a charm on most classes. especially if there are 2 of you, the guy is dead in 2 seconds.. takes just a little longer with 1 operative/scoundrel. However, if said person survives your little ambush, you are screwed, so make sure they don't.

 

no comment on sustained dps. it was always my belief that dps operative was a myth, but I thought they fixed that a while back?

 

are you seriously gonna complain about getting mauled to death? assassin needs something thats useful, they are in the same boat as you, or they were at least. Deception is a little more useful now I hear.

 

Deception is fine in PVP, if not borderline OP, in my opinion. I recently hit 55 on my sin and I've been destroying people like I was in 10-54 with no problems, and he has worse gear than my scrapper/conc op.

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This analogy is more accurate than you realize; Because traditional MMO mechanics define dodge chance as the following;

 

1. Any and all direct attacks are dodged regardless of damage type. That's the definition of 100% dodge chance when refering to standard MMO game mechanics.

 

2. Any and all AOE damage types are not dodged because they are not classified as "direct attacks." AOE damage type attacks can only be "evaded" by definition.

 

What does BW do? Design a game outside the proven norm which really shouldn't suprise anyone by now.

 

So in regards to your analogy, a dodge ball is a direct attack... where a Nuke, is an AOE attack, it doesn't matter where it hits, because it hits everything within a certain range. Damage types are irrelivant.

 

And if you want to be nitpicky about it; Try this one: Why does force shroud stop ALL damage types except energy & elemental? Which is defined in this game as ranged, where kinetic is defined as melee & ranged and elemental by ranged. Additionally, force shroud provides immunity to Tech damage, AND force damage.

 

Dude shroud stops everything but white damage. Evasion in the only two MMOs I've played has dodged only melee/ranged attacks, same as it does here. In this game, it also cleanses dots, but that's probably only because the other "rogue" class got cloak of shadows, but no evasion.

 

Evasion for a rogue in wow doesn't dodge magic attacks. Doesn't dodge them here, either. That's what cloak of shadows (force shroud) is for. The only dots in this game that can't be reapplied during Evasion are warrior dots (excluding force crush) as they require a melee attack to hit you for the dot to be applied (Rupture, Shatter, Deadly Sabers, Impale, etc) which will of course miss during evasion.

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