From what I have seen so far in HM fp and Ops there seems to be a bit of an imbalance in the number of melee friendly, fights vs the number of range friendly fights?

 

Now I understand that for PVP balance reasons that melee don't rescieve any kind of significant bonus to compensate. Thats fair enough and probably the right thing to do design wise.

 

Is this something that changes in harder ops or is it the case that life is just harder for the PVE melee dps?

 

Rifts had a bit of success in improving encounters to be less melee unfriendly I was hoping that swtor would have taken this into account in their design phase.

It amazes me how mmo devs consistently ****s this up

 

Blizzard had to put in a flat buff for melee in raid encounters because they were unable to design proper melee friendly fights >.<

 

I agree about not buffing melee dps for pvp reasons but they really should take care to design more melee friendly pve fights

Devs are retarded. They think every fight should only involve point blank and close range abilities, thereby screwing melees over in PvE. It's so dumb. I don't know where this ludicrous sentiment comes from, but it essentially forces every raid group to run all ranged DPS. Why shouldn't they? Melees take more healing, lose DPS because they're constantly CCed, and can't take advantage of better positioning. The devs in Bioware have inherited this retardation from Blizzard.

the foreman crusher encounter thows his rocks only on targets at range. i think this is the only encounter where the life of a melee is easier (while u can still put some of ur ranged dps in melee range) Edited January 30, 2012 by flowqz

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240901

 

That's pretty much the melee vs range situation right now.

Melee should be harder than range, i mean, your standing next to the boss... Its only natural that it should be dangerous because your right next to a behemoth that will mess you up. If your standing in range than your not up in the action, and DPSing should be easier because you don't have to worry about getting smacked nearly as often. If a Melee DPSer can be competitive in damage with the ranged DPSers than it is a sign of a skilled MMO'er, plain and simple. They do exist out there, but there not as common as the Merc/Commando or Sorcerer/Sages facerolling to top damage by standing still with simple rotations. If you find yourself dying too often as a melee than you need to not stand in fire, stop attacking random targets, and learn to move and DPS simultaneously and efficiently. Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll.

Melee should be harder than range, i mean, your standing next to the boss... Its only natural that it should be dangerous because your right next to a behemoth that will mess you up. If your standing in range than your not up in the action, and DPSing should be easier because you don't have to worry about getting smacked nearly as often. If a Melee DPSer can be competitive in damage with the ranged DPSers than it is a sign of a skilled MMO'er, plain and simple. They do exist out there, but there not as common as the Merc/Commando or Sorcerer/Sages facerolling to top damage by standing still with simple rotations. If you find yourself dying too often as a melee than you need to not stand in fire, stop attacking random targets, and learn to move and DPS simultaneously and efficiently. Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll.

 

Terrible logic. What you basically said was this "Roll sorc or Merc 'cause it's easier". You didn't provide any logic as to WHY it should be easier other than, "you aren't right next to them". That makes melee DPS obsolete. If every boss is easier with all ranged then why pick up melee at all? Everyone should just roll sorc.

Melee should be harder than range, i mean, your standing next to the boss... Its only natural that it should be dangerous because your right next to a behemoth that will mess you up. If your standing in range than your not up in the action, and DPSing should be easier because you don't have to worry about getting smacked nearly as often. If a Melee DPSer can be competitive in damage with the ranged DPSers than it is a sign of a skilled MMO'er, plain and simple. They do exist out there, but there not as common as the Merc/Commando or Sorcerer/Sages facerolling to top damage by standing still with simple rotations. If you find yourself dying too often as a melee than you need to not stand in fire, stop attacking random targets, and learn to move and DPS simultaneously and efficiently. Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll.

 

I think there is a more pressing point here. Most melee don't have an issue with their role in raids or what's expected of them (for the most part), it's more about their usefulness - (or raid utility) that their class brings to a raid apart from damage. At present apart from a few minor buffs, melee offer hardly anything to an ops group that makes them worth bringing instead of a comparatively geared ranged. This shouldn't matter too much in most established guilds or guilds which raid with their friends as they will likely select raid composition based on who their buddies are - but if you are applying to a raiding guild then it is quite likely that guild will not be too fussed about recruiting any more melee beyond that which they have to as the ranged can do everything the melee can but more likely with better results and more raid utulity (battle rez / buffs etc) and less risk of death / added healing.

 

More variety that placed ranged at a disadvantage compared to melee for some encounters would also be a welcome change that would go some ways to addressing this issue. It's not a hard thing to implement and would be appreciated by both ranged (who want added challenge) and melee (who want to feel more than second class dps) i think.

Edited January 30, 2012 by JamieM

Terrible logic. What you basically said was this "Roll sorc or Merc 'cause it's easier". You didn't provide any logic as to WHY it should be easier other than, "you aren't right next to them". That makes melee DPS obsolete. If every boss is easier with all ranged then why pick up melee at all? Everyone should just roll sorc.

 

It does NOT make Melee DPS obsolete, it just takes more skill. At its core Melee involves moving and DPSing. That alone mean your spending more time focusing on moving and not DPSing, where as a ranged for the most part in Ops situations just has to sit back and fire. Skilled Melee know how to move and DPS habitually without having to strike a thought as to when or where to move. Your just less likely to find effective Melle compared to effective Ranged. Plus Melee is a must because of interrupts.

 

More to post on this thread in little later.

Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll.

 

X is simply more challenging than Y, if you can't handle it , then i suggest you re-roll.

 

This really is the ultimate mmo statement, useable in all situations as a alternative to game balance!

 

Seriously though if melee classes are harder to play by design then they need to come with a disclaimer at creation. Otherwise it is reasonably to expect all classes are designed to be broadly equal.

 

A simple solution is for all Op bosses to have a feature where they take additional damage from melee dps. The actual % of extra damage varies from boss to boss depending on how melee unfriendly they are or how restricted the melee's dps time is compared to the dps time of range dps due to movement requirements.

It does NOT make Melee DPS obsolete, it just takes more skill. At its core Melee involves moving and DPSing. That alone mean your spending more time focusing on moving and not DPSing, where as a ranged for the most part in Ops situations just has to sit back and fire. Skilled Melee know how to move and DPS habitually without having to strike a thought as to when or where to move. Your just less likely to find effective Melle compared to effective Ranged. Plus Melee is a must because of interrupts.

 

More to post on this thread in little later.

 

if melee HAS to be harder as ranged (as u say) they have to be more effective (meaning higher dps or utility)

 

why should i bring a melee if a ranged is saver but takes no dmg? oh and the mentioned "interups"... well bring 1marauder and u r done with your melee dps.

 

ps: your rp logic isnt required in here. noone wants to read things like "lolol u r in melee u have to take more dmg trololol"

Edited January 30, 2012 by flowqz

It does NOT make Melee DPS obsolete, it just takes more skill. At its core Melee involves moving and DPSing. That alone mean your spending more time focusing on moving and not DPSing, where as a ranged for the most part in Ops situations just has to sit back and fire. Skilled Melee know how to move and DPS habitually without having to strike a thought as to when or where to move. Your just less likely to find effective Melle compared to effective Ranged. Plus Melee is a must because of interrupts.

 

More to post on this thread in little later.

 

You just contradicted yourself. If melee "takes more skill" than ranged, yet fail to outperform range at any function, then they are OBSOLETE. Why bother with them? Who said ranged classes have no interrupts? They do, which continues to make melees outdated. When it comes to raiding, there is one golden rule: do what clears the content the fastest. If taking ranged makes the raid easier, then raiders will choose ranged every time. They won't even recruit the melee classes. Melee don't take more "skill", they take more time and effort. You put more work in and get less out of them. That's the very definition of obsolete. Your point is still moot. There's no good reason to take ANY melee in your raid if the content is easier and faster taking ranged. What good reason can you give me to take a melee over a ranged? I want a challenge? Since I'm not the one playing the melee, I have no interest in giving that player the "challenge" they desired when they made the sad, sorry mistake of rolling melee. I want my raid cleared in the time I allotted for it, ergo I pass on the melees and recruit all ranged. Your view is way too short sighted. There needs to be a balance. There needs to be an advantage to being a melee over a ranged. Right now there is none.

Edited January 30, 2012 by KiranK

Melee DPS is simply more of a challenge than ranged DPS, if you can't handle it, than I suggest you re-roll.

 

X is simply more challenging than Y, if you can't handle it , then i suggest you re-roll.

 

This really is the ultimate mmo statement, useable in all situations as a alternative to game balance!

 

Seriously though if melee classes are harder to play by design then they need to come with a disclaimer at creation. Otherwise it is reasonably to expect all classes are designed to be broadly equal.

 

A simple solution is for all Op bosses to have a feature where they take additional damage from melee dps. The actual % of extra damage varies from boss to boss depending on how melee unfriendly they are or how restricted the melee's dps time is compared to the dps time of range dps due to movement requirements.

X is simply more challenging than Y, if you can't handle it , then i suggest you re-roll.

 

This really is the ultimate mmo statement, useable in all situations as a alternative to game balance!

 

Seriously though if melee classes are harder to play by design then they need to come with a disclaimer at creation. Otherwise it is reasonably to expect all classes are designed to be broadly equal.

 

A simple solution is for all Op bosses to have a feature where they take additional damage from melee dps. The actual % of extra damage varies from boss to boss depending on how melee unfriendly they are or how restricted the melee's dps time is compared to the dps time of range dps due to movement requirements.

 

That's the Blizzard solution and it's a stupid one. There smartest and most sensible solution is to either A) make bosses that are unfriendly to ranged and friendly to melee or B) make all bosses unfriendly to both types equally.

It does NOT make Melee DPS obsolete, it just takes more skill. At its core Melee involves moving and DPSing. That alone mean your spending more time focusing on moving and not DPSing, where as a ranged for the most part in Ops situations just has to sit back and fire. Skilled Melee know how to move and DPS habitually without having to strike a thought as to when or where to move. Your just less likely to find effective Melle compared to effective Ranged. Plus Melee is a must because of interrupts.

 

More to post on this thread in little later.

 

Your logic continues to be terrible. Interrupts are possessed by Ranged as well as Melee.. so why bring Melee?

 

With everything else being equal (Buffs, DPS, Interrupts) Melee is still more likely to die which makes them inherently less dependable. Player Skill or not, they're getting knocked back out of range of heals, hit with cleaves, knocked down, etc.. and these are things that are completely out of their control... so why bring them?

 

This same issue is/was present in WoW. The problem is the Encounter design is much too harsh on Melee. No matter how good you are as a Melee character, you're going to die and probably more often than your Ranged counterparts so for Guilds interested in Progression consitency, they'll bring Ranged over Melee every time. And that's bad.

 

I disagree personally, that Melee DPS should be buffed.. but I think more encounters need to be designed without Bias of Range to the boss. Attacks like Mind Traps, Lightning Balls, Storm Protocol, etc.. are great because they show no Bias to Range or Melee. More attacks/mechanics like this will bring an equality to composition. If you absolutely MUST design a Melee specific mechanic, then an equally dangerous Ranged specific mechanic should be included in the same fight.

 

This will allow Raid Leaders to legitimately bring the player, not the class.

Yea this is BS, I don't even feel like playing my Assassin after reading these threads, I might as well reroll ranged dps.

Yea this is BS, I don't even feel like playing my Assassin after reading these threads, I might as well reroll ranged dps.

 

Didn't you know? This is "Sorcerers and Tracer Missile Spammers Online... oh yea and some Snipers"(Republic classes don't count, we all know Bioware hates them).

And the thing is that.. Hello BW this is Star Wars, which means most people wants to play a toon that uses a freakin lightsaber, and you made them have a disadvantage..

Melee should be harder than range, i mean, your standing next to the boss... Its only natural that it should be dangerous because your right next to a behemoth that will mess you up.

 

Then offset the required jousting and survivability issues by giving them more DPS capability. Oh that's right, I forgot about the PVP whiners; ya can't do that.

 

This is but one example of why PVPers need their own game. The mirrored skills are another. Aside from the animations and names, there's little to no uniqueness in abilities. Everyone needs a stun break. Everyone needs a purge/cleanse. Everyone needs a revive. Everyone needs a...

 

TL:DR - IMO, PVP destroys the potential richness and varience of PVE.

Then offset the required jousting and survivability issues by giving them more DPS capability. Oh that's right, I forgot about the PVP whiners; ya can't do that.

 

This is but one example of why PVPers need their own game. The mirrored skills are another. Aside from the animations and names, there's little to no uniqueness in abilities. Everyone needs a stun break. Everyone needs a purge/cleanse. Everyone needs a revive. Everyone needs a...

 

TL:DR - IMO, PVP destroys the potential richness and varience of PVE.

 

Melee aren't exactly the shining star of PvP either. Having them straight up do more damage than ranged would actually go long ways to balancing both areas, PvE and PvP alike. There's a massive amount of anti-melee abilities that are both player and NPC based. Melee really need some love.

Melee aren't exactly the shining star of PvP either. Having them straight up do more damage than ranged would actually go long ways to balancing both areas, PvE and PvP alike. There's a massive amount of anti-melee abilities that are both player and NPC based. Melee really need some love.

 

Without damage meters or parsers, who's to say that melee are being out performed by ranged? What, because they have to stop dpsing to avoid an aoe move? So what? For all we know melee have the highest dps and end up doing top dmg to a boss even with having to stop dpsing to avoid things.

Without damage meters or parsers, who's to say that melee are being out performed by ranged? What, because they have to stop dpsing to avoid an aoe move? So what? For all we know melee have the highest dps and end up doing top dmg to a boss even with having to stop dpsing to avoid things.

 

Thanks for that. It might have something to do with the fact that nearly everyone agrees that melee is gimped compared to range and there seems to be a good amount of evidence in game for that to be the case. I don;t think you need to have meters to work that out.

Sounds to me as all the Discussions i heard over the past 5 Years in WoW........ did we see Ranged only Setups all over the time from Progress Guilds.... nope and why...... it´s not mandatory, it only needs skilled Melee Players.

Coming from a group that runs 3 melee DPS in 8 mans, if the fights were hard I would care but as it is we are beating all the enrage timers by a lot so it doesn't matter at all.

 

We don't even have an agent in the raid for the buff.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Eroex

Melee aren't exactly the shining star of PvP either. Having them straight up do more damage than ranged would actually go long ways to balancing both areas, PvE and PvP alike. There's a massive amount of anti-melee abilities that are both player and NPC based. Melee really need some love.

 

Melee are fine in PvP actually. There's just a ton of people who are bad at Melee PvP in this game.

 

A flat buff to dmg done by Melee doesn't solve the issue as the issue isn't a direct DPS issue. The issue is that Encounters are more dangerous for Melee than for Ranged.. so it needs to be equalized by either A) Lessening the danger for Melee or B) Increasing the danger for Ranged.

 

I think all will agree that B is the better choice.