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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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I think he is saying that the magnitude of rage at a new/inexperienced teammate will be exponentially higher in VOIP as opposed to being typed in chat. Whether their language is or isn't appropriate.

 

I'm obviously not on VOIP with them, but all the ****-talking I see in Warzones is from these lowlife premades who think it is funny to broadcast their ops chat over the general chat channel, as well as make nasty remarks all game long while they are breaking the queue.

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Fair arguments but on some points I have to disagree :

 

firstly though I am not against match making even though in my original post it sounded like I am, what I should have said is that I personally don't believe that match making "On its own" would solve the issue, my preference would be for a solo queue and better match making for groups.

 

having played with a group of friends (not a premade as these friends were totally random in class/gear/ and even skill) I know that even in this case there is a considerable advantage to be had over the same number of people who randomly queue and are chucked together.

 

my preference would be for a number of "toggle buttons" which players can use to choose there level of play, so for example you could have Solo/2 man/4 man/8 man buttons but if you are grouped the only option would be to "tick" boxes that are equal to or greater than the number in your group, so effectively a two man group could only choose to go against other 2 man group or groups of more than 2 man.

 

The solo player could choose to tick any of the boxes they wanted and so could end up as a filler aginst an 8 man pre-made if they wanted, but the difference is they have this as a choice and could just as easily have chosen to just play in the solo only queue.

 

I for one have no issue playing against premades, my issue is being stuck playing against premades all night and not having another option apart from logging off and trying again on a different night.

 

its having the choice that is the important part for me

 

I wish the discussion in this thread would be more like this, and less finger pointing and raging at each other, thank you :-)

 

I think just hard separating the queues would be really bad for this game, but I can absolutely see a toggle "no premade games" working. Only thing i'd be a bit afraid is that those who don't toggle this still get in full pug games most of the times, just because the current "matchmaking" starts the match as soon as there are 2x8 in the queue. But that's not a huge problem, more a bit of an inconvenience.

 

What i'm looking for most is that i get grouped with people around my skill level and matched against a group of somewhat similar skill, and then often an awesome game happens. I'm just not sure if anything without a matchmaker will help us get more of those games, and in my experience pug or premade has no real impact on this. ( I agree that beeing in a premade has a huge impact on your winrate, just not on the amount of fun games you get, unless you enjoy roflstomping)

 

I'd be willing to wait an extra 5 minutes for the matchmaker, 10 minutes would be too much for me, and i'd rather take whatever game i can get at this point. It would be up to bioware to figure out what the general consensus is ofc, i can only speak for myself, but i would be shocked if the majority would rather have a roflstomp game than wait a few extra minutes on a better one.

 

...

What you are saying is that you want to queue with your friends, who are good players, and you are happy to stomp over people who aren't teamed up.

 

No this is the opposite of what i'm saying, i absolutely hate roflstomp games when i'm in a premade, i think it's extremly boring and a complete waste of everyones time. Thing is, i am convinced that during primetime on tofn, if our best guild premade + 4 randoms got matched against the 8 best puggers we would win less than 60% of the games, and most of them would be cool games to play for both sides.

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For me better matchmaking so the team compositions are good, and open comms to all is the answer..

 

In agreement on the matchmaking so... no comment there. Open comms... I'll let someone else argue that one, I see it going either way.

 

However the matchmaking system is not going to happen on the current servers, and it seems they dont want to add in live voip? So then it becomes how do we resolve it..

 

I think matchmaking is more viable than people here think. From what I've heard, Queue pops are fast and fine on the PvP servers, it's the PvE and Rp servers that have the longer queues. On/Off-peak hours of course take effect, but I think you'll find matchmaking with a built in queue wait limiter (no "best" match in X minutes, just get the players playing!) will reduce the number of off balance matches with a small effect on queue times.

 

All those pugstompers on here who are happy with the current situation need to stop burying their head in the sand.

 

You may want to cool your jets before you just get on people's bad sides. Though I can only speak for myself and what I've observed from others, very few of the people Posting here seem to be happy with the current situation and are in favor of some kind of matchmaking. The term "PuGstomper" can easily get anything of merit you have to say ignored, because then you just sound like another one of the Solo-Only PuG-bracket supporters (which if you favor matchmaking you're not) that is butt hurt for being beaten by a group.

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I'm obviously not on VOIP with them, but all the ****-talking I see in Warzones is from these lowlife premades who think it is funny to broadcast their ops chat over the general chat channel, as well as make nasty remarks all game long while they are breaking the queue.

 

This is something I rarely see in warzones...at least from premades. Every once and a while sure but its usually that one person who does nothing and bags on his team for being bads. They made a Real PvPer thing on that guy.

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Also what does make me laugh is all the pro-premaders in regs on here telling pugs they are poor players and should l2p and they need to get in a group. Yet seem to be oblivious to the fact they could use their own advice,and l2p and group up to play in ranked warzones. Of course in there these leet premaders might get beat and not accrue all their commendations.

 

First, let's be clear on one thing:

 

Any player(s) having obtained max level and numbering 1 to 4 can queue for regular. This is everyone's queue, it is simply called regular. It is not the casual queue, the PuG queue, or any other name that designates it to any specific type of player.

 

Second,

 

You believe in fairness, yes?

 

Tell me then, how you can believe it is fair to ask a player who has:

1. Studied their class, and other classes to better counter them.

2. Found 3 other people.

3. Learned to work as a team.

 

and possibly:

 

4. Built their gear/crafted consumables.

 

How do you justify it being fair to ask this player to find 4 more people and play ranked, if a solo-only Player is unwilling to do the above first?

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What is ruining non-ranked WZs are the f. operative/scoundrel healers and surely not the premades. But of course, a team of premades will always have at least 2 op/sc healers and there's no way to beat that. Even if the other team is a premade too and has 2 op/sc healers, nobody will be capping anything or dying. Edited by Cretinus
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*snip*

 

*Taps foot patiently.*

 

Still waiting for your response, even if you like to keep dodging and trying to pick fights/arguments with others to continue trolling.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You can't have it both ways. Your justification for solo-only queue option (aside from the normal queue now) is that with out it X amount of PuG's quitting the game will cause the queue's to lengthen and lead to Group players quitting.

 

Yet you also say, that if there is a solo-only queue option, there won't be a strong negative effect on the group queue because there will be enough PuG's still using it to sustain the group players queue times/subs. So only Y amount of PuG's will use the PuG-only option.

 

There is no logical reason for the value of Y in the second situation (PuG's leaving for the solo-only option) to be any less than than the value of X in the first situation (PuG's quitting), so Y is equal to or greater than X.

 

If X is enough (by your own post!) to damage/destroy the PvP population, then Y has the same effect.

If X is not great enough to damage/destroy the PvP population... then there is no justification for creating Y.

 

So is or isn't X enough PuG's qutting to damage the queue times and PvP population?

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How do you justify it being fair to ask this player to find 4 more people and play ranked, if a solo-only Player is unwilling to do the above first?

 

Non-ranked is the 'natural environment' for solo players (since they are unable to play anywhere else)

Ranked is the 'natural environment' for grouped players (since they are the only ones able to play there)

 

When it comes to non-ranked, criticizing a solo player for being "unwilling to group" to play in an environment that is natural for solo queuers does not make sense.

 

On the other hand, asking a player who prefers groups to "find 4 more" so he can play in his natural environment does make sense.

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By most people, you mean nobody it seems.

 

I see you still failed to actually re-read. Is it really that hard? I can help if you really need me too.

 

Oh let me guess, the response will be "Well <insert excuse here> happened so...<Excuse#2>"

 

If you can't hold a meaningful discussion, just admit it....oh wait you have. ;)

 

I guess you are a bit slow on the trigger today.... Not surprising really.

 

So I guess I will give you your meaningful discussion, you desire so much...

 

 

 

As it relates to Cash's SS:

1. Regardless of how stupid it is to even discuss objective points when his team likely spent 1/2 of the WZ double capped, .........

2. Not only the above, Cash was called out for "trying to exhibit his epeen" when he posted it, when it was pretty obvious that his intention was quite the opposite (which he also admitted after I put my post up). His numbers were viable given his role, then when you peel a layer back and see what he was subjected to (I wouldnt be surprised if the other team marked him), and peel back another layer that he was on a DPS MANDO(!), putting up 571K was actually pretty damn good.

 

Allow me to stroke his epeen.

 

GJ Cash!

So call me a jester or condesending all you want. One good troll, deserves another...

 

 

AmIrite?:rak_02:

Well when u post something as stupid as that it makes u look like one of the infamous monitor lickers, or arguing just to do it. I am more than willing to assume the latter, but...

 

 

So let's review, we got one psycho likening this to rape, two people arguing just for the sake of arguing, and plenty of PuG butthurt..

 

Just when I thought it wouldn't be possible, I think the advocates have reached a new low....

 

 

 

 

As it relates to Zo and his hardware/lag matter:

Maybe I should have just put a question mark after my posts?

 

I'll take Relevancy for 100, Alex:

 

Answer: "They can't provide you with better hardware, they can't make you more "skilled", they can't provide you a "pause button for your RL issues", they cannot stunlock your join group button.

 

Question: "What are premades?"

 

 

If you want to talk "super-queing", voice-chat, blah. blah, blah...fine, but spitting out excuses like "my computer sucks" is not relevant to this discussion. "Bad" can mean a bunch of things in the gaming world. Regardless of which catergory you fall under, premades can't make your computer not suck, premades can't stop you from sucking less in your role.

 

Now with the proper context on a comment that went WAY over your head, can you understand:

Screw that, let's just blame Canada while we are at it.....

:rak_01:

 

While the poster was being sincere, I was being facetious to make light of the obvious irrelevant post... You know, "not being a dick" as a another poster put it.:rolleyes:

 

So know that I have explained in detail why I posted what I did, please take the time to try to pick this apart. I will thoroughly enjoy any retort that will probably be about as deep as a kiddie pool.

 

I do enjoy forum PvP... <3 troll on young man, troll on...

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"""""You believe in fairness, yes?

 

Tell me then, how you can believe it is fair to ask a player who has:

1. Studied their class, and other classes to better counter them.

2. Found 3 other people.

3. Learned to work as a team.""""

 

This is totally naive. The problem is 90% of the population does not do those things. Can they? Sure, but then your throwing out 90% of the player base. Then what happens is you start to get the same premade stomping a different set of pugs every match. Then the pugs stop queing and the pvp population dies. This has already happened, 55 is a joke, its the same people every match, if anyone new comes in they make the team lose because there aren't enough noobs to compensate for them. The real reason premades despise the notion of premade only is because they know fully well what will happen. Most premades will get stomped by the same teams over and over and over and they will stop queing and premade pvp will be gone. So rather than have that happen they are willing to sacrifice the casual base of the game to keep stomping out easy wins. The only people this doesn't apply to is hardcore premades, but those people actually want to do ranked but can't find teams willing to take them on because there aren't enough hardcore players or they can't organize or they simply aren't as good. It's the ones who aren't good enough for ranked, but who can still win by using your methods who benefit the most, again at the expense of the community at large.

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Non-ranked is the 'natural environment' for solo players (since they are unable to play anywhere else)

Ranked is the 'natural environment' for grouped players (since they are the only ones able to play there)

 

When it comes to non-ranked, criticizing a solo player for being "unwilling to group" to play in an environment that is natural for solo queuers does not make sense.

 

On the other hand, asking a player who prefers groups to "find 4 more" so he can play in his natural environment does make sense.

 

That argument would work if ranked allowed either 4 or 8-man premades, but it doesn't. Ranked is just as unplayable to a 4-man premade as it is to a solo player. A 4-man's natural environment is still in regulars as is the Solo-players.

 

Secondly, a solo player doesn't have to be willing to group to play in regulars. That's not the question or issue.

 

The question is, how can a it be "fair" for a solo player to expect others who already do more work then they do to...

do even more work so the Solo-player can benefit (from their absence)?

 

Put simply, I can not ask you to walk two steps if I am unwilling to walk one.

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"""""You believe in fairness, yes?

 

Tell me then, how you can believe it is fair to ask a player who has:

1. Studied their class, and other classes to better counter them.

2. Found 3 other people.

3. Learned to work as a team.""""

 

This is totally naive. The problem is 90% of the population does not do those things. Can they? Sure, but then your throwing out 90% of the player base. Then what happens is you start to get the same premade stomping a different set of pugs every match. Then the pugs stop queing and the pvp population dies. This has already happened, 55 is a joke, its the same people every match, if anyone new comes in they make the team lose because there aren't enough noobs to compensate for them. The real reason premades despise the notion of premade only is because they know fully well what will happen. Most premades will get stomped by the same teams over and over and over and they will stop queing and premade pvp will be gone. So rather than have that happen they are willing to sacrifice the casual base of the game to keep stomping out easy wins. The only people this doesn't apply to is hardcore premades, but those people actually want to do ranked but can't find teams willing to take them on because there aren't enough hardcore players or they can't organize or they simply aren't as good. It's the ones who aren't good enough for ranked, but who can still win by using your methods who benefit the most, again at the expense of the community at large.

 

Go back, re-read my question, then try that again. ^ that up there has nothing to do with the proposed question/concept and is mostly just word vomit.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:rolleyes: I feel the need to add a disclaimer: I believe -everyone- should be upping their game as much as they can. New Players need to learn to play, PuG/Solo need to learn how to play as a team (whether by forming one or just playing as one), and groups should always be trying to form 8-mans for ranked. However, If you are not willing to do as least as much as I am, then I have no sympathy if you get smashed by those who worked harder than you.

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Non-ranked is the 'natural environment' for solo players (since they are unable to play anywhere else)

Ranked is the 'natural environment' for grouped players (since they are the only ones able to play there)

 

When it comes to non-ranked, criticizing a solo player for being "unwilling to group" to play in an environment that is natural for solo queuers does not make sense.

 

On the other hand, asking a player who prefers groups to "find 4 more" so he can play in his natural environment does make sense.

 

thing with ranked is it's seriously hard, and playing regs doesn't really prepare you for it. Team composition is important, but usually one of the easiest problems to overcome. Then it takes a lot of practice to learn to play as an 8 man unit, and once you get that you have to flesh out strategies. If you manage to get 8 people that build a somewhat reasonable team online at the same time and actually can start practicing, you'll do that pretty exlusively against teams that have been doing this for a few months already, so you'll lose most games, in a similar fashion as pugs lose against pvp guild premades.

 

Not many people can deal with this for as long as it takes, so every day it becomes harder and harder to get 8 people together. In consequence you're forced to make more compromises with the composition or get more inexperienced players into the team. Both lead to even worse losses, and so it continues.

 

On those days you don't get 8 people together, or after the first rage quits, you'll have 7 people on voice who are frustrated and want to pvp, so regs here we come.

 

I've seen this happen in 3 guilds now, while the top teams remain more or less the same, so it becomes harder and harder to enter the ranked scene.

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That argument would work if ranked allowed either 4 or 8-man premades, but it doesn't. Ranked is just as unplayable to a 4-man premade as it is to a solo player. A 4-man's natural environment is still in regulars as is the Solo-players.

 

It's about game play preference. Either you prefer to play in groups, or you do not. However, i will fully support you if you request your 4-man to be able to queue for ranked(and in fact, something like that might be coming with the arena option)

 

 

Secondly, a solo player doesn't have to be willing to group to play in regulars. That's not the question or issue.

 

But that's what you are criticizing him for. "If you are not willing to group, how can you tell me to group more?" is what you said in your last post. He can tell you because him not grouping is natural for non-ranked.

 

The question is, how can a it be "fair" for a solo player to expect others who already do more work then they do to...

do even more work so the Solo-player can benefit (from their absence)?

 

There is no "work". Only fun. This is a computer game after all. You did group because you wanted to, because its your gameplay preference, because it's fun for you.

Telling the solo player "But i did all this WORK!..." is just nonsense.

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that meme is awesome rofl
That was me back in the day....

That stupid ***** was trying to tell me something and the ugly man showed up, pimp slapped her and deported me to Canada so I could get fiber optics, and a GTX680 :D

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That was me back in the day....

That stupid ***** was trying to tell me something and the ugly man showed up, pimp slapped her and deported me to Canada so I could get fiber optics, and a GTX680 :D

 

well it sounds like you made out alright in the end, id move to canada for a fiber + gtx680 lol :D

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It's about game play preference. Either you prefer to play in groups, or you do not. However, i will fully support you if you request your 4-man to be able to queue for ranked(and in fact, something like that might be coming with the arena option)

 

Two parts: Unless you (the royal you, not you specifically) don't care about success, which then you wouldn't be complaining, Solo vs. Group is not a play style.

 

There is actually no solo pvp as you -always- end up in a group for a warzone. Whether you group up before hand or let if pick for you, you're still in a group play scenario. I know everyone PuG's every now and then, but PuG-only queuing is about the same as Clicking vs. Keybinding.

 

But that's what you are criticizing him for. "If you are not willing to group, how can you tell me to group more?" is what you said in your last post. He can tell you because him not grouping is natural for non-ranked.

 

See above.

 

There is no "work". Only fun. This is a computer game after all. You did group because you wanted to, because its your gameplay preference, because it's fun for you.

Telling the solo player "But i did all this WORK!..." is just nonsense.

 

Work, effort, etc. Like it or not, games require you do -something- to get something. You can't use "Daily running isn't my gameplay preference, it's not fun" and then complain that other people have more money. There is always Optimal way to play something.

 

So again, I can not ask you to take two steps if I will only take one.

You can not ask me to take two steps if you will only take one.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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So much of this thread reminds me of a Lotro player that continuously soloed in open world pvp and was quite distressed that almost the whole rest of the server grouped up and zerged him constantly.

 

Back on topic, I have a few thoughts after reading pages of this:

 

To start with the obvious, small-med guilds, pvpers from pve guilds, and small servers will continue to field 2-4 man groups, as an 8 man ranked team requires approximately the same recruiting, time, scheduling, and coordination as a full raid team, whereas small grouping in pvp is the equivalent difficulty of getting people together for a flashpoint, if that. Ranked is not well suited for casual/busy/raiding players, imo.

 

If 4 man ranked is implemented, many teams will likely double que reg/ranked to reduce their wait time, so will not be isolated from regs.

 

If/when a solo ranked que is established, there will likely be a server TS set up for the regulars to join, allowing more coordination for folks willing to use it. I predict there will also be a lot more pvp forum outcry from matches where guild members end up on opposing teams, but are still chatting away as normal in their own mumble.

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Two parts: Unless you (the royal you, not you specifically) don't care about success, which then you wouldn't be complaining, Solo vs. Group is not a play style.

 

There is actually no solo pvp as you -always- end up in a group for a warzone. Whether you group up before hand or let if pick for you, you're still in a group play scenario. I know everyone PuG's every now and then, but PuG-only queuing is about the same as Clicking vs. Keybinding.

 

I thought there was a mutual understanding between us what 'solo' and 'grouped' means when it comes to this discussion. If you insist i will strictly use the full term "players who queued solo" and "players who queued as a group". I only used 'solo' as a way to reduce the amount of text in the post.

 

The "if you solo queue then you don't care about success" claim is nonsense. I do care. I just prefer playing with random people against random people, because that makes the match more chaotic and unpredictable, and for me, that equals to more fun. THAT is the gameplay preference/play style i was talking about.

 

Work, effort, etc. Like it or not, games require you do -something- to get something. You can't use "Daily running isn't my gameplay preference, it's not fun" and then complain that other people have more money. There is always Optimal way to play something.

 

You play this game for fun(or at least you should). So don't act like you made some great sacrifice when you found 3 other players to group with. If you think that's work then that's your problem not mine.

Edited by Sharee
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Don't know why people throw the TS (teamspeak) thing into the thread. It's much like a rider added to a bill so it doesn't pass. Surprisingly, there is a large majority of people who have no desire to get on VOIP.

 

The only tweak needed is to either:

 

A) Allow teams of 4 to participate in ranked

 

B) Have a separate Solo Queue and Group Queue

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Don't know why people throw the TS (teamspeak) thing into the thread. It's much like a rider added to a bill so it doesn't pass. Surprisingly, there is a large majority of people who have no desire to get on VOIP.

 

The only tweak needed is to either:

 

A) Allow teams of 4 to participate in ranked

 

B) Have a separate Solo Queue and Group Queue

 

I would actually prefer to not have a separate solo queue, and instead just allow players to skip games that contain groups(while still being in the same queue). A "only put me in games where all participants queued solo" checkbox.

 

That way players who queue solo but do not mind facing premade groups can still play against them (i.e. not use the checkbox) and the impact on queue times would be lower.

Edited by Sharee
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Premades hurt the team I am on.

 

They only heal each other, and they only use chat to get your help when and if it makes their objectives work. They can cap other nodes because you are the distraction they leave behind. I know because this is what I do on a premade ( yes we do end up guarding because we follow up after folks leave). I started to notice this after I began playing with a premade and then switched back to PUG.

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