so basically something that was stated not to be an exploit since cartel market was first introduced - is now suddenly an exploit. guess we should thank you for small favors that you didn't ban anyone for using it.. oh wait.. that would be close to entire population of the game >_> I did unlock all my favorite colors for account, so with 5.4 it will be back to normal for me, but... so far... monetanezation direction, with removal of bronze items, reduced number of items in packs with increased prices, no more weekly passes, etc... is not encouraging me to come back for good as a subscriber :/ I have one more 2 month card left, bought two of them a while ago, when they were on sale on amazon and I still had hopes for the game. took me this long to use a first one. I don't even know if I'll use a second one anymore.

and yes, what bothers me is that they are going back on their words like that, but I supposed.. i should have expected it.

I will be throwing all of my tunings in the garbage, .

Lmao, maybe throw your toys out of the cot while you're at it.

so basically something that was stated not to be an exploit since cartel market was first introduced - is now suddenly an exploit. .

Where did anyone say crystal transferring to get legacy unlocks was an exploit?

Love how people like to infer things that haven't actually been said at all.

Hey all,

 

This appeared to be a very welcomed change, but over the past month we found out players were subverting the collection system by using an exploit related to Legacy Weapons. Sure, you can argue it’s been that way for a long time, but Weapon Tunings were new and being able to use them across your entire account is a cool benefit.

 

 

---Keith

An exploit you say? Seems strange it only became one since tunings. Take tunings off a different track than color crystals if its such a problem.

Correct, using a Legacy Weapon to move a Color Crystal which you pulled down from your Collections UI is not an exploit. This is the case because there is no way to manipulate the system to allow for a large amount of credit gain as there was prior to 2.1.0b.

An exploit you say? Seems strange it only became one since tunings. Take tunings off a different track than color crystals if its such a problem.

What is strange about this?

Mid-2013

• "There's a loophole that's letting people circumvent the Collections system and it is costing us an estimated $[X] through lost Unlocks on Color Crystals."
  
• "That's not enough lost revenue for it to be worth cracking down on it over. We won't take punitive measures on people doing this or rework the system to close the loophole based on that amount."
  

Mid-2017

• "There's a loophole that's letting people circumvent the Collections system and it is costing us an estimated $[X+Y] through lost Unlocks on Color Crystals and Tunings."
  
• "That is enough lost revenue for it to be worth cracking down on it over. We'll rework the system to close the loophole based on that amount."
  

That is a perfectly rational business decision. Including closing the loophole completely once they determined that it was cost-effective to put in the investment towards changing things at all.

Keith,

So, you knowingly broke the game for a bunch of your players and say "We'll fix it later", yet again. There is no excuse for that. None at all.

What is strange about this?

 

Mid-2013

• "There's a loophole that's letting people circumvent the Collections system and it is costing us an estimated $[X] through lost Unlocks on Color Crystals."
  
• "That's not enough lost revenue for it to be worth cracking down on it over. We won't take punitive measures on people doing this or rework the system to close the loophole based on that amount."
  

 

Mid-2017

• "There's a loophole that's letting people circumvent the Collections system and it is costing us an estimated $[X+Y] through lost Unlocks on Color Crystals and Tunings."
  
• "That is enough lost revenue for it to be worth cracking down on it over. We'll rework the system to close the loophole based on that amount."
  

 

That is a perfectly rational business decision.

This is exactly correct.

And to all of you whining about this

Correct, using a Legacy Weapon to move a Color Crystal which you pulled down from your Collections UI is not an exploit. This is the case because there is no way to manipulate the system to allow for a large amount of credit gain as there was prior to 2.1.0b.

MOVING a crystal from one character to another through Legacy was never an issue, not an exploit.

However REMOVING that crystal and re-slotting it to get the unlock unfairly is an exploit.

These two processes are distinct and separate,

I moved many crystals from one character to another in this manner but I never exploited it by taking the next step to remove and re-slot the crystal for the unlock

i don't care. I paid for my unlocks if i wanted them, and now you are punishing me because you don't have adequate controls in place, and now you are punishing me to make an extra buck off of other people, and i don't like that.

 

I honestly hope that you loose more money is sub fees from those that choose to unsub over this issue than you will ever make from unlock fees.

 

Decision like this reveal your true nature as a company and create bad will your part. You would rather slip this in on us via a patch note with no notice, no discussion on how we might react to it, and then explain away as if it makes perfect sense for you to do what you are doing. Well, explain all that you want, but i won't be impressed until you stop sticking it to us by doing things like this in the first place.

exactly!!!

Keith,

 

So, you knowingly broke the game for a bunch of your players and say "We'll fix it later", yet again. There is no excuse for that. None at all.

Games working fine for me, maybe raise a ticket.

MOVING a crystal from one character to another through Legacy was never an issue, not an exploit.

However REMOVING that crystal and re-slotting it to get the unlock unfairly is an exploit.

These two processes are distinct and separate,

I moved many crystals from one character to another in this manner but I never exploited it by taking the next step to remove and re-slot the crystal for the unlock

Very good point.

I had never looked at the statement quite so technically and you are correct, at no point did Eric state pulling the crystal from your legacy weapon to unlock it on an additional character was not an exploit.

Good to hear Keith, sad that we'll have to wait a month to get it though. Would've been nice if it was done in the first place or reverted until 5.4.

Agreed. I don't think it should be done as a partial change with 5.3, and the rest of the change in 5.4.

BW has done blatant cash grabs before, and I would not be surprised to see more in the future. I don't see this change as a cash grab, though. Especially since their intention to close that loophole was announced ahead of time.

I don't have a horse in this race. I own no Cartel Market tunings, and my favorite Cartel Market crystals are unlocked in Collections (during 50% off Collection unlock sales). Still, I think the change should wait for its full implementation, rather than be done piecemeal over two patches.

It's an answer, one good enough to get me to peel off from the mob. I'd have liked to have seen a bit more thought put into place in the first place, but people are why we can't have nice things. Y'all who were unlocking tunings this way, thanks...

Speak for yourself. Thank you.

Where did anyone say crystal transferring to get legacy unlocks was an exploit?

 

did you not read Keith's post earlier in a thread? becasue you should, before you hastily reply again

 

Love how people like to infer things that haven't actually been said at all.

did you not read Keith's post earlier in this thread? because you should, before you hastily reply again, and put another foot in your mouth

and to adress the question of semantics above? the crystal situation existed in game for years. for as long as cartel market existed. if in that time they didn't realize that people used it to unlock crystals in collections.. they were either willfully blind (its not like anyone was hiding it either, people have outright posted about it on the forums) or they have implicitly admitted that its part of "not exploit"

I'm honestly having gambling machine deco dejavu right now.

and given as I am one of the people who used 50% off sale to unlock crystals in collections, mostly out of sheer laziness - transferring crystals across plethora of alts is a time consuming drag, easier to just unlock them for 30 to 120 cartel coins. so with 5.4 its back to business as usual for me. its the principle of a thing.

Speak for yourself. Thank you.

He is. That's what he was specifically saying in the first sentence that you just quoted.

Agreed. I don't think it should be done as a partial change with 5.3, and the rest of the change in 5.4.

 

BW has done blatant cash grabs before, and I would not be surprised to see more in the future. I don't see this change as a cash grab, though. Especially since their intention to close that loophole was announced ahead of time.

 

I don't have a horse in this race. I own no Cartel Market tunings, and my favorite Cartel Market crystals are unlocked in Collections (during 50% off Collection unlock sales). Still, I think the change should wait for its full implementation, rather than be done piecemeal over two patches.

but you do have a horse in this race... All tunings are marked cartel market (even ones you got from the DvL event) and it doesn't matter whether the crystal is unlocked legacy wide or not, your legacy weapon will still not work with that crystal in it...

They had a problem. They applied a fix that broke other things, unrelated to the problem they were trying to solve. People were annoyed and inconvenienced by that...

did you not read Keith's post earlier in this thread? because you should, before you hastily reply again, and put another foot in your mouth

 

and to adress the question of semantics above? the crystal situation existed in game for years. for as long as cartel market existed. if in that time they didn't realize that people used it to unlock crystals in collections.. they were either willfully blind (its not like anyone was hiding it either, people have outright posted about it on the forums) or they have implicitly admitted that its part of "not exploit"

 

I'm honestly having gambling machine deco dejavu right now.

and given as I am one of the people who used 50% off sale to unlock crystals in collections, mostly out of sheer laziness - transferring crystals across plethora of alts is a time consuming drag, easier to just unlock them for 30 to 120 cartel coins. so with 5.4 its back to business as usual for me. its the principle of a thing.

Read all of my post, the part quoted from DarthDymond especially.

It is these two things together that make this change understandable.

1. They always knew it was an exploit
   
2. They never said it wasn't and used language that carefully avoided saying it
   
3. The cost to fix and the cost to leave it was evaluated and it was cheaper to leave it
   
4. With the addition of Tunings that cost was reevaluated and the dynamic changed, it was now cheaper to fix it
   
5. They fixed it
   
6. The world explodes from the sheer horror of it all
   

Read all of my post, the part quoted from DarthDymond especially.

 

It is these two things together that make this change understandable.

 

1. They always knew it was an exploit
   
2. They never said it wasn't and used language that carefully avoided saying it
   
3. The cost to fix and the cost to leave it was evaluated and it was cheaper to leave it
   
4. With the addition of Tunings that cost was reevaluated and the dynamic changed, it was now cheaper to fix it
   
5. They fixed it
   
6. The world explodes from the sheer horror of it all
   

except... it doesn't add up. tunings are much rarer then crystals STILL. they have been losing out on unlock costs for years. especialy since there was a number of crystals that had their unlock cost at 400 cc and since those tend to also come in various stats, that's a lot of cc they have been losing out on. for years. tuning unlocks are a DROP in a bucket compared to that.

more likely, this change is due to change in leadership. its kinda similar to new government creating new laws, so that someone who was law abiding under old laws - is now suddenly a criminal without doing anything differently.

and now we are having a semantic argument. whereas reality is... its unlikely that they have though that far, at all. Keth came on board. keith, likely under pressure to get the profits up - decided that this was as good as any a place to go for it. and becasue they rushed it, they didn't think all the way through how it would affect their paying customers. new leadership - same old MO.

Ugh Keith please don't call this an exploit . If this is a loophole you want to have closed ok but don't call me a cheater for using a feature that was ok'd by a dev years ago. I understand that you aren't banning anyone but "exploit" is not a cool word to use under these circumstances.

The fact that this will take until August to fix is not want I wanted to hear. Honestly I am pretty disappointed right now. Also the "fix" is an improvement but also not what I wanted to hear. When I buy a cartel item (either via a hypercrate or for $$$ credits on the GTN which encourages others to buy cartel coins) I expect to be able to actually use that item. I don't want to pay another fee to use it.

If I cannot put it on 1 legacy weapon then I cannot use the crystal or tunning . To make me happy I would like to see the proposed system with a weapon costume designer slot. That way the stats are separate from the look and I can put the cosmetic items on the characters of my choice. If we can't have a weapon costume slot then please make it so that additional copies cannot be claimed without the cartel unlcok. That way I can put a tuning or crystal on 1 legacy weapon but I can't have free copies for the other weapon types. Once again if I can't put them on legacy weapons then I can't use the items at all (until we get a weapon costume slot) and its not fair to ask me to pay additional money to use the item once on one weapon.

did you not read Keith's post earlier in this thread? because you should, before you hastily reply again, and put another foot in your mouth

Let me break it down for you ...

With Patch 5.2.2, we made a change so everyone could take advantage of the Weapon Tunings across their account. We did that by adding them into Collections. This is the same process we use for Flairs, Armor Sets, Mounts, Crystals, Weapons, Pets, and more. This appeared to be a very welcomed change, but over the past month we found out players were subverting the collection system by using an exploit related to Legacy Weapons.

Subject of that is ...??? Weapon Tunings. Where does it say anything about the exploit relating to crystals? Where does he say the past use of unlocking crystals was an exploit (even though imo it clearly was).

and to adress the question of semantics above? the crystal situation existed in game for years. for as long as cartel market existed. if in that time they didn't realize that people used it to unlock crystals in collections.. they were either willfully blind (its not like anyone was hiding it either, people have outright posted about it on the forums) or they have implicitly admitted that its part of "not exploit"

Well luckily we have much more competent management now then right who can cotton on to these things and do something about it right? Crystal unlocking, bug or exploit, it's fixed either way.

I'm honestly having gambling machine deco dejavu right now.

Wish I had a bingo card for every time someone has an issue with something in the game and tries to relate it back to CSM. They aren't even closely related.

and given as I am one of the people who used 50% off sale to unlock crystals in collections, mostly out of sheer laziness - transferring crystals across plethora of alts is a time consuming drag, easier to just unlock them for 30 to 120 cartel coins. so with 5.4 its back to business as usual for me. its the principle of a thing.

The principal of what thing? That an obvious exploit costing the company money shouldn't be fixed because "it's always been that way" - is that the sort of principals you like to follow in life?

Ugh Keith please don't call this an exploit . If this is a loophole you want to have closed ok but don't call me a cheater for using a feature that was ok'd by a dev years ago. I understand that you aren't banning anyone but "exploit" is not a cool word to use under these circumstances. .

Eric never actually stated removing the crystal to legacy unlock the item on another toon was not an exploit though. It was never stated it WAS an exploit either.

If I cannot put it on 1 legacy weapon then I cannot use the crystal or tunning . To make me happy I would like to see the proposed system with a weapon costume designer slot. That way the stats are separate from the look and I can put the cosmetic items on the characters of my choice. If we can't have a weapon costume slot then please make it so that additional copies cannot be claimed without the cartel unlcok. That way I can put a tuning or crystal on 1 legacy weapon but I can't have free copies for the other weapon types. Once again if I can't put them on legacy weapons then I can't use the items at all (until we get a weapon costume slot) and its not fair to ask me to pay additional money to use the item once on one weapon.

That's a whole different topic really - "do away with collection unlock prices". There is no reason they should do it only for crystals and tunings, you can't send/share other CM items with other toons without legacy unlocking them first so why should it be different for crystals and tunings?

Let me break it down for you ...

 

 

 

Subject of that is ...??? Weapon Tunings. Where does it say anything about the exploit relating to crystals? Where does he say the past use of unlocking crystals was an exploit (even though imo it clearly was).

 

 

 

 

Well luckily we have much more competent management now then right who can cotton on to these things and do something about it right? Crystal unlocking, bug or exploit, it's fixed either way.

 

 

 

Wish I had a bingo card for every time someone has an issue with something in the game and tries to relate it back to CSM. They aren't even closely related.

 

 

 

The principal of what thing? That an obvious exploit costing the company money shouldn't be fixed because "it's always been that way" - is that the sort of principals you like to follow in life?

let me break this down to YOU. he says its an exploit related to legacy weapons. specifically transferring an item via legacy weapon and pulling it out, unlocking it for that character in collections. seeing as this was made impossible for both crystals AND weapon tunings, not just weapon tunings? he did indeed call it an exploit.

the principle of thing is that they took something that they stated was NOT an exploit and are now calling it one. he didn't say loophole. he said EXPLOIT. he very specificaly just accused a bulk of the playerbase of deliberately exploiting the game. for years. despite this originally being ok'd by previous management.

I totally want this game to be run by people who do this sort of thing /eyeroll

P.S. it is related to CSM in that 1. some people have tried to claim that using that machine copiously pre nerf was an exploit. 2. it was nerfed into the ground with very little warning. 3. it was a cartel market item people paid money for. but sure, not related at all.

meh, why do I even bother with you?

what's done is done. I'm just expressing my dissatisfaction with how it was handled. so much for "new hope" in Keith. sure lets leave the bugs that make the game difficult to enjoy present it game, must... hotfix... collections... yeah yeah, profits.... funny story.. if they tried to make the game more appealing to more people, polished it up a bit, and all... they would have more paying customers and less of a need to nickle and dime the few that remain.