My personal gripe with taking heavy shot for an engi sniper is the timing when you use it. I'm no expert on snipers, but

here's my 2 cents on it

 

1. If I have aoes on a spot my biggest buzzkill is when people get knocked right out of the aoes. This really isn't that much of a problem with the front loaded PP, but it's still frustrating when it happens. My favorite is the unlucky moment were try just move before my ambush to get knocked out of my OS just before it lands

 

2. how viable is a 2.5 second cast for a KB? While it is a nice thing to have I feel we simply do not need it for an engi sniper. We already get a 2 second stun from our normal rotation we use, do we really need another controlling move in our rotations? Not to mention that by the time we get to ambush in a rotation, people usually die at this point in the rotation, unless they happen to have a healer on them, in which you should be on the healer, not that guy.

 

Sure, the KB on ambush is nice, but I feel that you can put points into better places such as precision ambush or lethality.

Like the new sections. I feel I have a few discrepancies between some of your choices in regards to outcome of the sniper vs sniper, but that will be a different post

 

do not have a warrior main. All of this is coming from personal experience and research through reading through guides on Both sides of the fight and discussing mechanics with friends who are familiar with the specs(friend had a min/maxed rage jugg pre-1.4, along with many others)

 

The best spec i feel for maras/juggs in general would be MM. its got everything you need to kill em. Super debuff from diversion(they will be missing that accuracy here), 2 KBs to keep them out of lolsmash range, awesome Entrenched that can last for 2 smashes, and some fantastic burst to really kill em fast. The best thing I can say for a jugg/Mara is to keep them as far away as possible, only fancy things they get are Force Scream and obliterate to use offensively at 10 meter range, so it never hurts not to KB them.

 

For rage maras as an engi sniper(assuming lethality as well) I usually have an interesting time with them just because I usually have my dots rolling on them at the start of a fight, so I can't effectively CC them through their defensive CDs. I can't root them and keep them away for the 6 seconds to let cloak of pain fall off because IP still has 10 seconds on it and they are standing in my PP, let alone the lethality dots that stay on for like a minute before finally falling off. Can't flashbang them through saber ward because it will just break from my dot or aoes again. I try to make a habit of piping evasion as soon as ravage shows up or if I happen to fall around 30%ish, as Vicious Throw and that last tick of Ravage are the only 2 white damage moves that will really hurt in the spec. Heavy shot is nice here, but with their cloak and that evil 2.5 cast time they easily have enough time to dodge it. I find Juggs easier to handle than maras, sure they can put up alittle more damage but their defensive cooldowns are not as nice tbh, so it's easier to burn through them.

 

The most important part to me(outside of keeping them far away) is the closer. Both ACs have nasty defensive cooldowns in pvp for that last little push. Undying Rage is awful(as we all have experienced) but with the nerf to it all you need to do is save some resolve for a debilitate(or a PP stun if you don't have the range) and wait it out with some rifle shots and kiting. For Juggs any good one with have endure pain and a warzone medpack(possibly even their trinket)waiting to pop to heal back ups huge chunk of health. Best thing you can do is try to burst or stun them before it happens or be prepared for another layer of meat to peel through.

 

That's everything I can think of atm, on my iPhone so I probably missed some stuff.

 

A nice thing I think you should try to add would be a little guide to countering all their CDs that try get. I remember seeing something like this before(maybe in GS forum?) and it would be a great help for people who have trouble with maras/Juggs

Edited December 27, 2012 by CJNJ

Great guide. Lots of useful information for snipers/gunslingers. Personally I prefer this spec for MM.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400rcrbbRsRGoZbfZh.2

 

Siege Bunker is great against all the smash monkeys, but outside of smash it is usually better to move out of the aoe than eat it. My playstyle tends to be more of a semi-mobile MM so this ability gives me limited usefulness.

 

It might seem odd for a single-target spec to go for more aoe damage, but Explosive Engineering also affects Explosive Probe. That greatly improves your burst and helps to generate yellow damage on heavily armored targets. This gives me up to 4k crits on Explosive Probes. The +10 energy gives me some buffer for the extra Explosive Probes and Orbital Strikes (putting these on top of yourself is a great melee defense).

 

The 3 second reduction on Leg Shot isn't worth 2 points in my opinion.

 

Diversion's usefulness is debatable outside dueling other snipers. My strategy is to attack until they toss diversion, run, then comeback and hit them hard when they switch targets. It would be great to have, but I tend to like the small buff to survivability from Cover Screen better.

Frankly speaking i think you are trading way too much just for making your one 30s second ability hit 10% harder. I do not belive it's worth it. With MM you have your Ambush, FT and SoS on very short cooldowns, spaming grenades when you could outright kill somebody is not something i would recommend with MM.

 

As written in the guide, Diversion is not only useful against enemy gunslingers. Assassins are incredibly annoyed when they get a diversion.

 

In my humble opinion, your build is more useful in PvE.

Edited December 27, 2012 by NoTomorrow

Every AC should fear diversion. 9 seconds of ALL accuracy reduced by 45%, lolsmash and sorc/sages will probably be hurt the most because they do not rely on accuracy in their rotations. I laugh when people I use it on get misses with the dots they have ticking on me and I cry when my PP and IP or Mind Crush on my sage start saying miss. As MMs we need to stop saving diversion for just that other sniper, because it is such a great move to use and a waste to not use it Edited December 27, 2012 by CJNJ

Personally I wouldn't put 2 points in explosive engineering without putting 2 points in engineers tool box. As you havne't done so then I agree in that it's pretty pointless in itself where you can get much better use out of the poitns. Where I differ to express however is that both of those talents together are useful in the right situation. When you have great clumps of dudes together, perfect example is voidstar then for me grenade becomes invaluable, 3 sec cooldown and an extra bit of damage.

 

If that was my spec then personally i'd simply go for 2 points engineers tool belt...actually I'd also remove 1 point from lethality and place it in Heavy shot,

The thing is, on many maps there will be so much zerg that you will rarely find youself in a 1vs1 situations where you will need diversion to fight enemy gunslinger. You might just as well use it on somebody else. Edited December 27, 2012 by NoTomorrow

awesome guide. my sniper is going up the marksman tree and 29 now. I've learned a LOT this morning. My offensive rotation is sound, but everything else is still a train wreck

So it's actually true the 10 point energy tank bonus isn't really that great a buff, because it also shifts your regen point from 60 to 66...do I understand this right?

 

It'd be much more useful if you got 10 points of fast regen bonus, but in reality, seems you're only getting 4 energy at the max regen, not 10. Pretty lame.

 

What do you think about throwing two points in tier 1 engineering for the 15 sec CD on flash bang? Wondering if doing 33/5/3 for the shorter CC CD would be worthwhile from a survivability standpoint? I'd take one point from sector ranger, and undecided about the second - probably one point out of leg shot CD.

Edited December 27, 2012 by islander

awesome guide. my sniper is going up the marksman tree and 29 now. I've learned a LOT this morning. My offensive rotation is sound, but everything else is still a train wreck

So it's actually true the 10 point energy tank bonus isn't really that great a buff, because it also shifts your regen point from 60 to 66...do I understand this right?

 

It'd be much more useful if you got 10 points of fast regen bonus, but in reality, seems you're only getting 4 energy at the max regen, not 10. Pretty lame

 

Thank you. For PvE you want that 10 extra energy regardless of spec. For PvP it depends on your spec. MM already has extra +1 from cover, +50% energy regen for 10 sec from sniper volley and adrenaline probe. Basically your main energy management rule for MM is use rifle shot after casting orbital strike because if you burst after it you will surpass 60% energy mark.

 

Engineering, since you are already starting in that tree, you might just as well take it. Lethality however is quite energy starved and it will require a lot of effort from you. As I said before, with leth you are forced to trade between ballistic dampers and +10 energy. It's your call. Against a Pyro, Smash happy team, i would take the dampers with leth.

NT: I threw this in as an edit above:

 

What do you think about throwing two points in tier 1 engineering for the 15 sec CD on flash bang? Wondering if doing 33/5/3 for the shorter CC CD would be worthwhile from a survivability standpoint? I'd take one point from sector ranger, and undecided about the second - probably one point out of leg shot CD.

 

I'm personally just a bit conflicted, cause boy, there seems to be some very useful stuff in the first tier of the engineering tree.

If the MM tree itself wasn't so loaded with goodies, I could easily see doing 31/7/3 taking all 7 lowest tier points for various PvP reasons (energy, improved CC).

However, I just can't reasonably reconcile dropping from 33 to 31 points in MM. So now I'm wondering to myself, if I'm going to go 33 MM, which 2 points I should go with - 10 energy, or 45 second flashbangs. Yes, I understand your preference is 35 points in MM, and I may come around to that with time. Just humor me for now

Edited December 27, 2012 by islander

Flashbangs, i use more often when i am alone in melee range against 2-3 ganking me. When at range facing 2-3 enemies, most of them are not even range DPS so they cannot threaten me. I believe for MM 1 min CD on flashbang is all right. I would certainly not trade this for the entrench CD reduction for example.

 

As for legshots, they are so damn amazing, everytime you see a full resolve melee, legshot is what ruins their plans.

Also it synchronizes well with Ambush 12s CD in MM, you can knockback and root basically replicating your cover pulse.

Personally I never take engineers tool belt for the sake of 15s off the flashbang cooldown, I take it for the 3s grenades. If you don't use grenades (in the right situation...) then there's no point in spending 2 points in it.

Amazing guide man! You worked real hard on it, It needs to be Stickyed.

Personally I never take engineers tool belt for the sake of 15s off the flashbang cooldown, I take it for the 3s grenades. If you don't use grenades (in the right situation...) then there's no point in spending 2 points in it.

 

Thing is, I am thinking more along the lines of more opportunity to use in mandatory group cc scenarios, within warzones.

 

We all know the #1 reason nodes/doors dont get won/turned is because people suck at cc'ing (and then leaving them alone). the steady stream of one or two people at a time out of the door always looks like a bad Benny Hill skit

 

Maybe I am overthinking it, though.

Edited December 27, 2012 by islander

Thing is, I am thinking more along the lines of more opportunity to use in mandatory group cc scenarios, within warzones.

 

We all know the #1 reason nodes/doors dont get won/turned is because people suck at cc'ing (and then leaving them alone). the steady stream of one or two people at a time out of the door always looks like a bad Benny Hill skit

 

Maybe I am overthinking it, though.

 

You will most probably have team mates arround with plenty of CC, at taking doors. Also very often your next opporunity to AoE mezz your opponents will rather come once in a minute than every 45 seconds. Also your cover pulse rooting them is not a bad control either.

You will most probably have team mates arround with plenty of CC, at taking doors. Also very often your next opporunity to AoE mezz your opponents will rather come once in a minute than every 45 seconds. Also your cover pulse rooting them is not a bad control either.

 

Great points. Thanks

Indeed, Flash Bang is very situational. I sometimes use it to to trap people in my OS or tactical CC of someone away from the brawl, like a healer nobody is attacking.

 

One other great use of FB is against Marauders/healers, if they do not have full resolve they will not break it. You can then load EP+Ambush+Takedown to kill them instantly before Undying rage or a cleanse. Great combo against healers you struggle to kill. It's situational and will not work if anyone else is breaking the CC.

 

This is the reason it's a good idea to save EP for the sub 50% HP kill burst. I've started to change the way I DPS in PvP to just scratch at them with SoS/Snipe/FT until 60% HP, then load up EP+Ambush for the kill. It works because their HP doesn't drop too fast at the start, making them overconfident on killing you.. then suddenly: BHAM! :3

I am not sure if that much accuracy is needed. As the base melee/range defense chance is 10% for consulars/inquisitors and 5% for others, it seems very wasteful to stack more than 10% extra accuracy -- it's overkill for most of the ACs. In fact, if you only have +5% accuracy, the only opponents a sniper will have trouble with are shadows/assassins, tanks, and other snipers (sages/sorcs are squishy anyway...) and TA will help in those cases.

 

Also, my understanding is that the extra damage (yellow/tech) from Cull will be triggered even if the weapon component misses.

Edited December 28, 2012 by JohnAnconia

I am not sure if that much accuracy is needed. As the base melee/range defense chance is 10% for consulars/inquisitors and 5% for others, it seems very wasteful to stack more than 10% extra accuracy -- it's overkill for most of the ACs. In fact, if you only have +5% accuracy, the only opponents a sniper will have trouble with are shadows/assassins, tanks, and other snipers (sages/sorcs are squishy anyway...) and TA will help in those cases.

 

Also, my understanding is that the extra damage (yellow/tech) from Cull will be triggered even if the weapon component misses.

 

No, if it outright misses, no yellow damage will be applied.

I am not sure if that much accuracy is needed. As the base melee/range defense chance is 10% for consulars/inquisitors and 5% for others, it seems very wasteful to stack more than 10% extra accuracy -- it's overkill for most of the ACs. In fact, if you only have +5% accuracy, the only opponents a sniper will have trouble with are shadows/assassins, tanks, and other snipers (sages/sorcs are squishy anyway...) and TA will help in those cases.

 

Also, my understanding is that the extra damage (yellow/tech) from Cull will be triggered even if the weapon component misses.

 

Plus we as snipers are much more reliant on white damage than other ACs that drop accuracy. So that random miss will hurt us much more then that lolsmash jugg, Madness sin, concealment op and AP powertech(not sure on this one) because most of their damage doesn't come from white

There was a post from a sniper with no ststs in accuracy at all, he was loosing quite a lot of DPS even though he was a lethality sniper. His Culls missed pretty often. Edited December 28, 2012 by NoTomorrow

If anything, I'd replace the "excess" Accuracy with Alacrity.. call me crazy, but 4-6% faster cast speed is more valuable than 3% Surge. Take it as you will, in the grand scheme of things it is more down to how you play you Sniper and what your team is made of.

 

If anything, I'd replace the "excess" Accuracy with Alacrity.. call me crazy, but 4-6% faster cast speed is more valuable than 3% Surge. Take it as you will, in the grand scheme of things it is more down to how you play you Sniper and what your team is made of.

 

 

As i said Svii, there is really not a consensus if a Sniper should min-max his build like for example a Concealment Operative. In the end, the individual player skill, spec, klass knowledge and execution is more important that a few extra percents of this or that stat. I have currently 102,5% ranged accuracy with 41% ranged crit. Somebody will consider these numbers absolutely stupid. Tell this to the sentinels i've sent back to respawn..

As i said Svii, there is really not a consensus if a Sniper should min-max his build like for example a Concealment Operative. In the end, the individual player skill, spec, klass knowledge and execution is more important that a few extra percents of this or that stat. I have currently 102,5% ranged accuracy with 41% ranged crit. Somebody will consider these numbers absolutely stupid. Tell this to the sentinels i've sent back to respawn..

 

Completely agree, I sit at 102% accuracy and 40% crit myself.

 

This just makes a good argument for balancing your stats as a Sniper. You can Min/Max against certain classes, but it will make you less efficient against a different class. Balance seems to be the way to go, missing an Ambush is infuriating

You should see me back in january 2012 being angry because i could not one-shot sorc bubbles...