One other question, regarding the 30% crit goal, is that including the buff we'd get in an Ops group? Should we shoot for 25% out of our gear, or is it shooting for 30% in gear and then ending up with 35% in the Ops group?

 

My personally recommendation is to be between 25% and 30% crit unbuffed. However, remember that there's nothing magical about the 30% crit point, it's just a good easy-to-remember point to aim for. It also corresponds well with the recommended 250-350 crit rating.

 

Cool, thanks Daellia. My final question would have to be specifically about which PvP set to get, Force Master or Stalker. For PvE I've been choosing a mixture somewhat (I know Force Master is the DPS one but I really don't like the 4 piece bonus so if a Mystic or Stalker has more Willpower I've been going for it, probably not the best but I'm fine with it for now).

 

But back to PvP Master or Stalker. I looked at both stats for each set and added all the numbers up (everything is BM EXCEPT the weapon which I didn't include because there is only 1 anyway) and assuming I didn't make a mistake anywhere I got.....

 

***NOTE***........................ remember, no BM weapon included

Master............... Stalker

End: 949............ End: 961

Will: 892............ Will: 901

Crit: 461............ Crit: 397

Surge: 153......... Surge: 153

Power: 107......... Power: 151

Alac: 306........... Alac: 0

Acc: 0................ Acc: 306

 

So, Acc has 0 affect and Alac has almost 0 affect (since as a Sorc DPS hybrid only two abilities are ever getting a "cast time", or channel rather). Wouldn't going the Stalker set route not impart somewhat of a bigger advantage to you from having higher End/Will/Power while also giving the 4 piece bonus of one additional Recklesness charge and 15 second CD reduction? Because that additional Recklessness charge is pretty enticing as opposed to the Master's 2 piece bonus of Crushing Darkness 1.5 sec CD reduction and 0.5 % life tap.

 

The question about the set bonuses would be better aimed at someone else, my PvP experience is relatively limited. From a raw dps perspective, the Masters 2-set is superior to the Stalkers 4-set, but from a PvP usefulness standpoint I'm not sure. However, remember both that you can mod the accuracy off the Stalkers set, and that while Alacrity only affects 2 of our spells, it effects a solid 50-60% of our damage. It's not amazing, but it's certainly not "almost no effect".

 

Also, it's fairly common for DPS sorcerers to run 3 Masters / 2 Mystics to gain the 3 seconds off Static Barrier rather than the range boost on Shock and Jolt (this also allows you to maximize your Willpower from those slots).

Edited March 9, 2012 by Daellia

Hmm, things to think about. Thank you.

Finally updated to the new stat graph, sorry about the delay.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=251

Regarding the current 1.2 PTS notes:

 

The diminishing return formula for several stats (including expertise) has been adjusted.

 

The only stat that currently has changed in the PTS game files is Expertise. The cap is going from 20% to 50%, but the initial slope is being decreased to compensate. The basic gist is that under 300 rating, you lose a slight amount of benefit (you won't really notice a difference), but the stat falls off less as you get more. At 300 rating, expertise will be about 1% better than current. By 500 rating, Expertise will be about 9.5% better than current. If 1000 rating ever becomes reachable, it'll be about 30% better than current.

 

Here's a graph comparing the total benefit over a range of 0 to 1000 expertise:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=253

 

Here's another comparing total benefit over a range of 0 to 2500, so you can see the curve shapes more clearly:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/attachment.php?aid=254

So in the end is say having a Rakata Stalkers helm over a Rakata Force Master helm as a sorc dps be preferable ?? Just curious..

So in the end is say having a Rakata Stalkers helm over a Rakata Force Master helm as a sorc dps be preferable ?? Just curious..

 

For sorcs, I generally recommend having a Mystic chestpiece or boots, with the other 4 slots as Masters. The Stalker's help has significantly less willpower than the Master's version, and comes stock with Accuracy enhancements that are effectively worthless for a Sorc.

One question.

 

Would you go for the Champion ForceMaster earpiece instead of the Battlemaster Forcemaster earpice? The Champion one has more power, and I've seen some videos that could proove that power is really important for big damage, I did some testing myself and my damage has improved a bit. I also swaped a mod from champion enforcers gloves for power and I have found it a lot better. Any ideas on this?

Champion Force-Master's Relay

+70 Endurance

+77 Willpower

+46 Expertise Rating

+41 Power

+48 Alacrity Rating

 

Battlemaster Force-Master's Relay

+75 Endurance

+82 Willpower

+50 Expertise Rating

+44 Critical Rating

+51 Alacrity Rating

 

This could go either way. Net difference in stats Champion -> Battlemaster:

 

+5 Endurance

+5 Willpower

+4 Expertise

-41 Power

+44 Crit

+3 Alacrity

 

Depending on how you've modded your gear, crit and power can be relatively close in value. In particular, if you have at least 1.5 times as much power as you have crit rating, they are going to be somewhat close to equal, though this would require you to have modded in a number of Willpower/Power mods (preferably not the A or B models, just the numbered ones, they are the best) and gotten rid of any remaining crit/surge enhancements you have in favor of power/surge or power/alacrity ones.

 

If you're running stock Battlemaster gear, however, you'll be swimming in Crit and Alacrity, and the Champion one would probably be better.

Excellent post, should be stickied.

 

Having played with the formulas myself, I didn't notice that there was a "cap" for conversion for some of the stats even though it was right there in the open.

 

Thanks!

 

Agreed with this

Update on the Expertise change. They've apparently adjusted the DR formula away from the traditional formula style. Instead, it follows the following formula

 

DR = 1 - 1/(1 + DamageBoost)

 

The neat part is that this means that regardless of your current expertise level, if you attack another target with the same amount of expertise as you, you'll deal precisely the same amount of damage you would if you were both at 0 expertise. The two values simply negate each other (proof below).

 

Also, here's a graph of the expertise curves compared to the 1.1.5 curve:

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=282

 

Proof

DR = Percentage PvP Damage Reducation displayed on character sheet

DMG = Percentage PvP Damage Boost displayed on character Sheet

 

DR = 1 - 1/(1 + DMG)

DamageDone = RawDamage * (1 + DMG)

DamageTaken = DamageDone * (1 - DR)

DamageTaken = DamageDone * (1 - (1 - 1/(1 + DMG)))

DamageTaken = DamageDone * (1 - 1 + 1/(1 + DMG)))

DamageTaken = DamageDone * (1/(1 + DMG)))

DamageTaken = RawDamage * (1 + DMG) * (1/(1 + DMG)))

DamageTaken = RawDamage * (1 + DMG)/(1 + DMG)

DamageTaken = RawDamage * 1

DamageTaken = RawDamage

 

Expertise multipliers are completely negated.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Daellia

Is it still 300 crit rating and 250 surge rating?

Is it still 300 crit rating and 250 surge rating?

 

There aren't any real hard values (never were, actually). However, in general, you're going to want roughly equal amounts of Surge and Alacrity (perhaps slightly more Surge), and you're going to want approximately twice as much Power as Crit rating.

Finally updated for 1.2 (profuse apologies for the delay). The only major change to stats was in Expertise, which now has difference equations for each of the 3 benefits it provides. I've updated all of the graphs, and included some new ones as well.

 

The first graph shows scaling from 0 to 1000 rating, the second from 0 to 2500. The third graph shows the percentage of the limiting cap obtained at each rating level. This is important, since the benefit rating gives you is proportional to how much of the cap you have remaining. ie. if you are at 60% of the cap, the rating will be providing you with 40% of the benefit it did when you had 0 of that rating). The fourth graph is simply a comparison of 1.1.5 to 1.2 values for Expertise.

 

0-1000 Rating Graph

0-2500 Rating Graph

Percentage of Cap Graph

1.1.5 to 1.2 Expertise Comparison Graph

I have a question regarding alacrity and PvP gearing as a lightning / madness hybrid. I want to use alacrity as a defensive measure to Line of sight boost heal myself with Dark Infusion (talented .5 sec cast reduction) by popping Polarity shift and an alacrity trinket (BM or new War Hero) - perhaps recklessness as well.

 

My concern is that you say that alacrity caps at 30%. I'm thinking that just by using polarity shift (20% alacrity) and a trinket I will be close to that cap and that any alacrity on my gear will hit some serious DRs and basically be a waste of a stat (could replace with crit, surge, power). Is all sources of alacrity the same in regard to hitting this cap?

Edited May 7, 2012 by Xsjado

I have a question regarding alacrity and PvP gearing as a lightning / madness hybrid. I want to use alacrity as a defensive measure to Line of sight boost heal myself with Dark Infusion (talented .5 sec cast reduction) by popping Polarity shift and an alacrity trinket (BM or new War Hero) - perhaps recklessness as well.

 

My concern is that you say that alacrity caps at 30%. I'm thinking that just by using polarity shift (20% alacrity) and a trinket I will be close to that cap and that any alacrity on my gear will hit some serious DRs and basically be a waste of a stat (could replace with crit, surge, power). Is all sources of alacrity the same in regard to hitting this cap?

 

No. Activation Speed, which is what Polarity Shift grants you 20% of and what Alacrity Rating converts into, has no cap (well, technically, it caps at 100%, but that's flat impossible to hit). Alacrity Rating itself is the only thing with a cap (30% conversion), and that's an asymptotic cap, so it can't even actually be reached, just gotten closer and closer to (with smaller and smaller returns on further rating). Polarity shift has utterly no effect on the conversion of Alacrity Rating, nor is there any cap you need worry about for it.

 

That said, even from an emergency healing standpoint, the cast time reduction you'll see from gearing for a lot of Alacrity, and particularly from using a triggered Alacrity relic, are going to be very small compared to the benefit you would see using a more standard stat priority and a triggered Power relic. This is particularly true since the bonus from Relic is large enough that you're going to see obscene levels of DR applied to the Alacrity Rating it might give you. Situations in which that 0.1-0.2 seconds difference on the cast time will be make or break are going to be exceedingly rare. The additional Surge (from gearing) and Power (from the relic use effect) are going to give you a great deal more benefit overall, both in general and in those emergency save-your-*****-clutch-heal situations.

Hi, first and foremost, I want to say thanks for the awesome thread. Great stuff!

 

If I might suggest - you should add a grid to the graphics, that would in my opinion make it easier to read.

 

One more thing - I was wondering, how would you guys compare willpower vs expertise for PvP only purpose of course. Would you rather have 1700 willpower and 1000 expertise or 1500 willpower and 1200 expertise. What would you say is more useful in terms of damage? I am talking 31 Madness sorc.

Hi, first and foremost, I want to say thanks for the awesome thread. Great stuff!

 

If I might suggest - you should add a grid to the graphics, that would in my opinion make it easier to read.

 

One more thing - I was wondering, how would you guys compare willpower vs expertise for PvP only purpose of course. Would you rather have 1700 willpower and 1000 expertise or 1500 willpower and 1200 expertise. What would you say is more useful in terms of damage? I am talking 31 Madness sorc.

 

It's tough to directly compare them. From a raw DPS perspective, Willpower is superior to Expertise once you have around 200-300 Expertise, so that doesn't help much, as PvPers also take it for the defensive benefits. When the patch initially dropped, I did a rough estimate based on the percentage-of-cap used at the value the community had settled on for the previous "enough" level for Expertise (500 rating), which would imply that past around 1000 expertise rating you'd be better off stacking other stats. However, this is a really wide estimate, with a couple questionable assumptions, so take it with a grain (or two or three) of salt. PvP is unfortunately significantly tougher to theorycraft than PvE.

Just adding a latecomer's thanks for such a clear and understandable explanation of the various stats.

 

Exceptionally useful.

Edited May 14, 2012 by TxAstarte

Just wondering if there was a general number based thing on how much of each we want. Ive just been upgrading my pvp gear bit by bit and trying to get PvE gear but I want to look into gear more. So is there general numbers or limits to stats, much like how over 1000 expertise is worthless to have, is there anything else like that that we should know, and is there a good number of each stat that I want for optimized gear?

Just wondering if there was a general number based thing on how much of each we want. Ive just been upgrading my pvp gear bit by bit and trying to get PvE gear but I want to look into gear more. So is there general numbers or limits to stats, much like how over 1000 expertise is worthless to have, is there anything else like that that we should know, and is there a good number of each stat that I want for optimized gear?

 

PvP isn't really my interest or forte, so I don't have much to suggest here. I would recommend taking a look at the MMO-Mechanics PvP Forum, or perhaps reading through my Sorcerer DPS compendium and some of the replies (we don't address Expertise there, as its a PvE thread, but you can probably still get a solid idea from it).

i was wondering which game file you are talking about when you quote percentages.

also the basic and special damage you mentioned quite a while ago. you had said tech damage is all special skills and the special skills are all of them except the basic one (ie. hammer shot).

i just wanted to look at these numbers and details for myself. not that i don't believe you. just wondering if i can find anything new for my class: knight, guardian / trooper, commando

i was wondering which game file you are talking about when you quote percentages.

also the basic and special damage you mentioned quite a while ago. you had said tech damage is all special skills and the special skills are all of them except the basic one (ie. hammer shot).

i just wanted to look at these numbers and details for myself. not that i don't believe you. just wondering if i can find anything new for my class: knight, guardian / trooper, commando

 

The details are contained in the following files in your Assets folder:

 

swtor_en-us_global_1.tor

swtor_en-us_zed_1.tor

swtor_main_gamedata_1.tor

swtor_main_global_1.tor

swtor_main_gfx_1.tor

swtor_main_zed_1.tor

 

The special versus basic attacks were derived via testing, though they are also explicitly stated in the details of each ability. The files explicitly state the constants for each stat (including the percentage cap), but we had to derive the equation ourselves (it's never yet been off by even a single decimal place, though).

 

You can access and view the contents of the above files using a program called Nodeviewer, accessible in this post. It does have a bit of a learning curve, though.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Daellia

cool. thnx a lot. fast reply. should be able to +1 you. good work to your team by the way

another question for you. before we were unable to log our combat you're team was unsure of how much defense end game bosses had (ops bosses in particular). It was believed they had 108% - 110% however on the op you stated that they have no intrinsic extra defense under accuracy. is this true? i'm guessing you guys learned after getting a good look at the log files from combat.

 

if so then that would make accuracy stacking nearly pointless. unless you guys think that having a certain amount of armour penetration from going over 100% accuracy has a balance at some point with the rest of the stats.

Boss targets have 10% Defense. They have zero intrinsic Force Resistance, which is what Accuracy would negate on Force effects. Since we don't use melee attacks, Accuracy does nothing for us against them.

 

Side note: Accuracy does not and never had provided armor penetration. That was a rumor that started during Beta when someone misinterpreted the tooltip stating that Accuracy past the cap "reduces the target's Defense". They assumed that "defense" meant armor, and without any data otherwise (and very few people having access to the Beta at that time to confirm it, it still being under closed beta and NDA), this was taken as true. As the weekend betas started, we demonstrated this rumor false.

 

Accuracy past the cap reduces the target's effective Defense (against Melee and Ranged attacks) and Resistance (against Force and Tech attacks). Boss mobs have 10% Defense and 0% Resistance. Player targets have a base 5% Defense (except Inquisitors, which have 10%), plus any additional from skills, abilities, or gear, and 0% Resistance. There are 3 effects that I am aware of that can provide players with Resistance, however: Premonition (T3 Darkness Assassion), Scouting (T2 Concealment Operative), and the PvE Powertech 2-set tanking bonus (and their Republic mirrors, obviously). All 3 of these effects provide 2% Force and Tech resist, but none of them are common enough or large enough magnitude to gear for.