'Think of how dumb the average American is. And half the people are dumber than that.' - Carlin

 

 

The problem: players focus on tactics (their mad skillz, or, if losing, the weak skillz of their lame teammates), when they really should focus on team strategy. Warzones are won, or lost, on strategy.

 

The solution: are you kidding? This is a question for the ages. Weigh in with your thoughts, please. Dealing with a weak team in PvE is much easier (see Darwin's Foe: Healing the Hardest Groups). Here I have no solutions, only three tips.

 

1) When you want to capture a node, send more players there than the enemy does.

 

This simple, obvious strategy is the most ignored in PvP. Too many players think they're Superman, and will win both a node and the game single-handed.

 

When playing with an average (or lesser) team, that's not a wise plan. The 2/5/1 approach to Civil War leaves your team short in the middle, assuming they do the usual 2/6/0, as well as at the far side.

 

Yes, it's possible to take a node solo, and any longtime player has done it or seen it succeed. But an average team - and really, what else is your typical PuG? - will lose any node fight against superior numbers. It's that simple.

 

What's not simple is getting a team to try, say, 2/0/6, though that match beats the usual 2/6/0 in a flash. Two things can help:

 

 

2) Any plan beats no plan.

 

Imagine playing against a team with no Chat box (and no VoIP - we're talking PuGs): you'd thump them. But most groups hardly use theirs, beyond a general tactic at start ('fight at the doors'), and a few late calls of 'inc' or 'pass!'.

 

If someone else suggests a plan, go for it, and state that you will; others are more likely to follow. If not, suggest yours. You're much better off than running around at random.

 

My favorites of here's-a-plan-in-10-seconds-before-we-start:

Alderaan: don't be afraid of the sides. People mistakenly claim that they can't be held as well as mid/side, but the direct speeders make the point moot (and though mid-side is fast, the reverse is not). Call 2/0/6. Yes, for a good team, there are advantages to sending 3, 4, or 5 to the far side, instead of 6, but in an average team not everyone will listen, so aim high.

 

Novare: If 3 or more people congregate at the west/east door, suggest they either go south... or if they won't budge, that they all rush the far node instead. The 3/5 split that becomes 2/1/5 ('SuperNinja!') puts your team at a loss at two nodes at once. Help your team avoid it.

 

Voidstar: All zerg right or left. Forget 'stealth left, rest right.' When the defenders leave 1 or more at the other door, your average team beats theirs at the crucial first door, where the game is often won or lost. See rule #1: send more players than the enemy to a node you want to capture.

 

Huttball: Call out to get ahead of the ball and look for the pass, on offense and defense.

I've grown to appreciate Huttball and the clever tactics noted in Highcommander's excellent Huttball guide.

But much of that smart advice is too subtle for an average team. You have only a moment to plan, so keep it simple: get ahead of the ball and look for the pass, to receive it or prevent it.

 

Ancient Hypergate: go for the Orbs.

I'm amazed at what a difference this makes. In most matches so far, players seem to deathmatch at both Pylons, leaving the Orb-center relatively open. I've been able to run back and forth uncontested dozens of times, and it pushes my Objectives score through the roof.

With organized teams, I expect that there may be value in hitting the center in force right at the start, moving the orbs in a scrum to a Pylon, whether owned or not. But for PuGs, getting anyone you can to join you works wonders, so far.

 

A PuG is fundamentally different from a (pre-) organized team. Sometimes they're quite good, and I've played in more than a handful to beat premades, but I've never, ever seen it without coordination. An average team with a plan will beat an average team without one, and can often beat better than that.

 

Which brings us to the last tip:

 

 

3) Stay positive.

 

If you haven't wanted to tear your hair out, you're either Vin Diesel or an infrequent PuG player. Your teammates will do the most jaw-dropping things. They will stand at the edge of the Pit with 'Force Leap to Me' T-shirts. They'll deathmatch out of sight of the ninja at the door. They'll actually be unaware they now carry the Huttball. It's so infuriating, that I figure Bioware can replace the F2P model by selling the ability to Force Choke teammates.

 

But complaining won't win games.

 

It never, ever helps. Being positive doesn't always turn things around either, but every now and then it does, and as much as players cheer after an easy win, nothing in the game beats a come-from-behind victory after your team began to act with a single will.

 

You can't guarantee that. You can't make it happen often. But you can move things in the right direction, and sometimes that makes all the difference.

Edited December 20, 2012 by CBGB
Updated for new WZ

Lol nice post.

 

And yes there have been times where I would cash out my retirement accounts for the ability to force choke my team!

i agree with everything you said expect no.1 , somtimes bum rushing a node will be the end of the match. IF the other team is good , once they capp they are not going to loose it ( SCREW YOU EDGE SPEEDERS ). And as a tank shadow , its not hard to take 3 people at once if you have good gear and managed your CD. Plus guard is a killer when you want to 2v4 2v3 a node.

Its an age old problem and its getting worse. The latest craze appears to be, despite calling inc several times, not a soul comes to help and then they complain that the node was lost.

 

It is all about awareness and numbers. Especially on maps like Novra where you can more or less see whats going on. If the enemy aren't in the middle, they must be some where right?!! So instead of waiting for that single node defender to take on 7 players, why not CHECK your node.

 

Yesterday, two of us were defending a node on Civil War and I rushed about half way out to finish off the Jug but despite that, my highly experienced (valour 100) team mate LOST the node as it was ninja capped behind him,

 

I really cant understand what goes through ppls minds when they pvp other than the attitude 'oh someone else can do it'. On certain maps, pressing M can paint the picture of how good/bad your team are and depending on what I see, depends if I say or go as I don't waste my time with idiots.

2/0/6 doesn't beat 2/6/0 in civil lol. It takes less time to get to mid than it does to get to the far turret. You try walking that extra distance and send nobody to mid and they can either leave 2 behind and send another 4 to the node you sent 6 too or send 4 to your node. Either way your screwed if you send nobody to mid.

So in short, its the team's lack of communication and desire for commendations that ruin the PvP matches.

 

Yup, sounds about right.

2/0/6 doesn't beat 2/6/0 in civil lol. It takes less time to get to mid than it does to get to the far turret. You try walking that extra distance and send nobody to mid and they can either leave 2 behind and send another 4 to the node you sent 6 too or send 4 to your node. Either way your screwed if you send nobody to mid.

 

it also takes the attackers longer to get to the left right nodes so in turn it's easyer to defends if your swing team is smart and starts running to the tunnel before the inc is called....

Edited December 17, 2012 by tindin

in the 12 months i've played this game I have yet to see a 2/06 work vs any "good" premade. The only time i've seen it work is when the competition are undergeared pugs.

Voidstar: All zerg right or left. Forget 'stealth left, rest right.' When the defenders leave 1 or more at the other door, your average team beats theirs at the crucial first door, where the game is often won or lost. See rule #1: send more players than the enemy to a node you want to capture.

One thing I've had good luck with, even though I sometimes don't believe it myself, is to stealth along with the main force, and then, don't unstealth right away, but *wait* a bit after they engage before unstealthing and trying to cap. I speculate that the enemy often watches for the immediate-un-stealthing and when that doesn't happen, they forget about it for a while. Or maybe I've just been lucky?

 

It's so infuriating, that I figure Bioware can replace the F2P model by selling the ability to Force Choke teammates.

 

Yes. I would spend all my cartel coins on this, especially since there's nothing else worth anything in the store.

Biggest tip to pug groups - NEVER leave a node/turret etc when u capture it lol

 

Number of pug groups im in and when some1 has catured east in a nova coast they leave it unguarded and same in a civil war lol.

As a bad loser who often starts moaning when a loss becomes inevitable (surprisingly early on Civil War), I have to say this is a great post!

 

I'll try to stay positive in future - that's one thing I've talen from it - but the advice on having even the simplest plan is solid gold.

 

I cannot get over how many times I've simply said 'plan?' at the start of a WZ, inviting someone to suggest one, only to be told 'kill them all'. So hilarious - but it gets you nowhere.

 

After that, I always sugggest a simple scheme for people to stick to, but its amazing how many times people just wander off to do their won thing, die, and lose us the match.

I really cant understand what goes through ppls minds when they pvp other than the attitude 'oh someone else can do it'. On certain maps, pressing M can paint the picture of how good/bad your team are and depending on what I see, depends if I say or go as I don't waste my time with idiots.

 

My favorite is when I see the little purple people stretched out in a dotted line heading toward our natural node in Novare, as they individually get slaughtered 1v6 and wonder why they can't retake it.

There's really nothing I can do in WZ's with this abysmal trash Recruit armor other than stand at nodes in stealth and call out Incs.

Lately, on the pub side of my server what's been happening, especially when we are winning and have control of two nodes, both doors or whatever, is overcommitment when the lesser guarded side gets attacked. I tend to notice the off node needs help before anyone, even before calls for help, because I'm watching everyone's health bars (I play both a commando medic and a gunslinger - I keep the op frame up on both). In fact, I usually end up calling out for help for them, since half of the defenders out there don't bother. It's extremely common for me to start running only to have almost everyone follow me five seconds behind, and zerg off the node leaving maybe one person, or a couple of totally brainless times, nobody left to defend.

 

What I'd love to hear is some kind of strategy to keep puggers from overcommiting and zerging from node to node like idiots. When I ask people in chat not to do it, to look on their mini map and pay attention to where everyone is, it doesn't seem to help. A lot of times, I'll stay behind, and make sure to help guard it myself, only to have the second to last person zerg off the node too and ignore me when I ask for someone to stay with me.

 

We have lost so many games that we should have won because of this. So, any suggestions?

Edited December 17, 2012 by Prisoner

That's actually a great post!!! I think this should be stickied tbh!

Nice post OP.

 

I have been thinking more and more about the basics and how to explain it to people since my son is now playing. I will be honest and say he is likely as bad of a player as you could ever see as far as I can tell from watching him, so I have been trying to stress to him objectives and situational awareness and emphasizing watching chat and using it.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Technohic

So in short, its the team's lack of communication and desire for commendations that ruin the PvP matches.

 

This, right here

My favorite is when I see the little purple people stretched out in a dotted line heading toward our natural node in Novare, as they individually get slaughtered 1v6 and wonder why they can't retake it.

 

I scream at people about this constantly. I tell them to go in groups of 3, at a minimum. Do they wait? Nope, they run in like lemmings to die over and over. It's kind of funny if you stop caring about winning.

i'd like to add a few things 1 or 2 players can do to increase chances of winning

 

novare coast: at the beginning it's mostly a big fest zerg going on south, as soon as enemy numbers diminish look at their door if they're coming back to challenge south or not.. there's no need for 6 people to finsh off 3 ~~. you could head to the east/west node to help defend before the node is taken.

 

 

civil war: at the beginning what i (sage) like to do with a friend of mine a commando healer is: we head mid, he pops a -15% damage taken warzone pack, activates what he can and tries to tank to the other side wall, we've even made a mini-game out of it : D. most of the time he'll be focused hard, giving vital time to capture mid. if it's possible i'll pull him back (sage). it's not only numbers positional play can counter numbers.

 

Often in pugs stealthers play a different game, like going to the same node the whole game long in a desperate attempt to capture another node. if possible i whisper them and join them poking at the defenders from beneath the wall with dots, boulder in your face and whatnot. sometimes i don't even have to do that, they'll just come after me as i'm presenting an easy kill/medal.. as stupid as it sounds falling for that trap i just lure them away for the stealther to take the node as i mezz, slow, root, stun them..

 

be the first to leave while!! defending a node. when the enemies start to die, that's when you leave, your damage/heal at that point is not needed anymore and the other node is probably already been attacked~~ mostly without an inc call..

 

 

huttball: whisper a stealther at the beginning to sit in stealth at the enemy goal line, it hardly takes a force sprint from middle over the acidpuddle down the pit to be in pass range, you do not have to be a juggernaut/knight to carry the ball in a pug.

 

don't always go for the ball-carrier, damaging the following! or running infront pulk will often lead to inexperienced healers to heal themselves, others..

 

 

voidstar: when defending and the doors open, charge infront, try to get the redbuff, and present yourself as target on the left or right side doesn't matter.. your teammates will follow and you've successfully built a front that 1) shortens the way to swith sides without having to hope not to get attacked when doing so 2) somewhat forces the enemy team to go the other side as we all had that pug experience where you were desperatly fighting at that ship/the box and couldn't manage to push forward

 

at the second door defending after the bridge: if you're a ranged class fight from the redbuff podium it's very easy to keep the doors in sight from there, focus on thinning the lines of enemies coming from the bridges. wait for opportunities to jump off the podium and instagib them down the ledges.

 

when defending don't kill people after losing a door, either die quickly or get ahead...

 

 

ancient hypergate: not much to say yet, just get familiar with los in that map, it's great : D

 

general things one can do: you don't have to kill.. don't go out of your way just to kill an opponent, like jumping down the pit in huttball T_T, damaging 2 opponents fairly > killing one, slowing/ mezzing 3-x people >>> trying to kill 1... even more so with if they have a healer. as everyone has a rough estimate about how much damage he/she/others can do to a single target with the first 2-3-4 abilities he/she activates + the greediness of most pugers it is better to enable them to press their desired 2,3 buttons and making them feel good for stomping the poor soul u prepared for them, all while you prepare the next one ~~

 

scroll your camera out. the amount of people i see in alderaan jumping on the ledges next to the wall in middle just to get a glimpse of what's happening @ snow/grass disturbs me. i imagine them just stopping if they're not in the mood to do the "extra effort"..

 

PRESS M. you're channeling a 3 sec attack from a safe position? why not press m and check if the dots on the map are moving in strange patterns which might indicate they're being attacked/ some stealthy hoping to be seen in huttball @ enemy endzone/ there's only one palyer @ other door? same goes for Watch your back/ the node you're supposed to be defending. Not just after dying if at all ~~..

you're leaving a node after defending it only to notice that everyone and their mother is abandoning the node? well it just became your duty. some games are just like that. And any defender > no defender, even a dps mando/merc/sage

 

 

keep in mind this is all for a single player abusing pugs, most of this stuff does not work well, is unnecessary in organized play.

Edited December 17, 2012 by nemdra

And as a tank shadow , its not hard to take 3 people at once if you have good gear and managed your CD. Plus guard is a killer when you want to 2v4 2v3 a node.

Good point about gear: it makes a big difference in level 50 WZ's, especially.

 

But what I meant about not sending a team in lower numbers is that an average team - and really, what else is your typical PuG? - will lose where it has lower numbers.

 

Say you have 2 to West (strong-side) in Novare, 1 to East (enemy-side), and 5 to South vs 2/6/0. Your team would lose South, where it made the biggest push, sending your dead teammates to the respawn point farthest from the East node you just took, mad skillz Superman that you are. If you'd gone South, you'd be holding a node with your teammates beside you.

 

2/0/6 doesn't beat 2/6/0 in civil lol.

We don't need to disagree about the initial caps, since 2/0/6 will beat 2/6/0 every time: your team outnumbers theirs at both sides.

 

I believe you're saying that mid/side is easier to hold, and I hear you. But while mid players can reach a side faster, the reverse isn't. Side to mid takes longer than side-to-side, and it requires a run past the enemy spawn point.

 

The key point, though, is that with an average team, games are won by sending more of your players to a target node than the enemy does.

 

2/6/0 vs 2/6/0 in Civil War is a toss-up, yet it's the most common approach in Civil War, followed only by the miserable, unannounced 2/5/1, which gives your team superior numbers at only one node.

 

Don't count on Superman out-deathmatching everyone in sight. Send more of your team to the target and win.

2/6/0 vs 2/6/0 in Civil War is a toss-up, yet it's the most common approach in Civil War, followed only by the miserable, unannounced 2/5/1, which gives your team superior numbers at only one node.

 

Don't count on Superman out-deathmatching everyone in sight. Send more of your team to the target and win.

 

Civil War openings are classic Prisoner's Dilemma. Why go 2/6/0 if you think they are going 2/6/0? You are much better off going 1/7/0 to have superior numbers at 2 nodes, right? Which makes the 2/5/1 just fine if that 1 guy is good. This ends up going in circles because for every strat I name you can name a better counter strat.

 

The big difference between Civil War and the Dilemma is that you get some information about the enemy's deployment at the beginning. Being able to see approx how many go to your off node is a big help, but only if the dummies from mid actually hop over the wall to assist.

Civil War openings are classic Prisoner's Dilemma....This ends up going in circles because for every strat I name you can name a better counter strat..

 

Yep. I don't mean to suggest that Civil War can be won by always going 2/0/6. As you say, any strategy can be met with a counter.

 

But teams don't need to keep going 2/6/0 when they expect the other team to do the same, as they do in so many matches. The key is to get your team thinking about going where the enemy is not, instead of thinking they can go to the same place and win because of their mad skillz.

 

 

Which makes the 2/5/1 just fine if that 1 guy is good..

Everyone thinks they're that guy - that good - and they're often not. But even when they are, they lose the other contested node with their average team. Remember, your PuGs are, on average, average. They'll lose when outnumbered. So don't get outnumbered.

 

And what of that Superman player who heroically capped a node? He or she is now standing solo, waiting for dead teammates to respawn. That's a big deal in Novare, where the respawn is far away. It's less of a problem in Civil War, thanks to the direct speeders, but only if your teammates hustle to reinforce. In an average team they might or might not.

 

That same Super-player could have made a difference at the other node in both cases, which they'd now hold with their teammates around them... and even an average team can see the benefit of that.

Edited December 17, 2012 by CBGB

All it comes down to is situationel awareness and always go for the objectiv and not death match.

 

If ppl can get that into their heads they'd win more.

The key is to get your team thinking about going where the enemy is not, instead of thinking they can go to the same place and win because of their mad skillz.

 

I like a lot of these posts (who knew there could be rational discussion on the forums! ) - but one thing that I have seen time and time again, which (IMHO) loses WZ that we'd probably have otherwise won, is people apparently applying this strategy even after we have two capped. I boggles my mind how many times we fight for and finally get that second node, and then as we continue to fight, and people die and respawn, they all head to the node we don't have to try to cap it. I think the idea is that "well, the one we have is going to be really hard to hold because they are all attacking it, so I'll go cap the the other one because they won't have anyone there!".

 

I'll admit that once in a while this works, but most of the time it just ends up with only having one node to defend. I think there should be a corollary to your original point up there... once you cap two, reverse that strategy and head to where they ARE (unless they are all defender-medal-farming at their remaining node).

Updated for Ancient Hypergate.

 

Strategy for it will become more refined, but for now, it's as forgiving as Voidstar. You can win even if much of your team sticks to deathmatching, as long as you have a few good souls retrieving orbs.

 

That makes it much easier to deal with an average (or below-average) team: getting even one or two solid players to hit the objectives goes a long way.