Jump to content

Immortal Juggernaut/Defense Guardian Set Bonus Discussion


EricMusco

Recommended Posts

Sorry but that's just out of the realm of balanced vs. a 20% to 30% sonic barrier increase.

 

Sonic Barrier absorbs currently 1700 damage all 12 seconds. Increasing the amount to 3400 damage all 12 seconds wouldnt be near unbalanced. Thats a 283 dtps decrease compared to the former 141 dtps decrease. Furthermore Juggs are the tanks receiving the most damage in most fights in current and former content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest complaint since launch day is my tanks get knocked around or stunlocked way too much in flashpoints and operations. Even with that 4 second knockback resistance buff, it still isn't enough (and sometimes it doesn't even work at all since the buff isn't applied until after you force leap and smarter enemies attack you while you're leaping)

 

I'd rather see a flat chance to not be knocked down (I dunno 5% chance to dodge a knockback?) further cooldown reduction options on Unleash. Whether it's getting stunned reduces the cooldown of unleash by 5 seconds or what I dunno. As of now you can reduce it to 1 min 30 seconds but when every trash mob has multiple foes with a stun it seems kinda pointless. (perhaps that's the real issue with too much knockback and stuns)

 

Really the only new setbonuses i'd want. Much everything else is fine on my jugg (minus the lack of a lightning power)

Edited by Noyjitat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest complaint since launch day is my tanks get knocked around or stunlocked way too much in flashpoints and operations. Even with that 4 second knockback resistance buff, it still isn't enough (and sometimes it doesn't even work at all since the buff isn't applied until after you force leap and smarter enemies attack you while you're leaping)

 

I'd rather see a flat chance to not be knocked down (I dunno 5% chance to dodge a knockback?) further cooldown reduction options on Unleash. Whether it's getting stunned reduces the cooldown of unleash by 5 seconds or what I dunno. As of now you can reduce it to 1 min 30 seconds but when every trash mob has multiple foes with a stun it seems kinda pointless. (perhaps that's the real issue with too much knockback and stuns)

 

Really the only new setbonuses i'd want. Much everything else is fine on my jugg (minus the lack of a lightning power)

I don't know, that's really only a trash pull thing, isn't it? I'd rather have set bonuses that are more useful for bosses.

Edited by AdjeYo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

its not supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be balanced

 

Well, for tanks at least, set bonuses are balanced enough. No point in making these boring bonuses. I'd also like to add that defensive stats aren't all that useful in pvp, since a big part of the damage you take is through guard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Set Bonuses typically(IMHO) should be tuned to the content from which the bonus is acquired. Granted they can be used at any time but presumably the bonuses that appear in a tier are tuned to the mechanics of the bosses in that tier and are targeted to help smooth over rough spots in progression. (Of course I could be completely crazy and the Devs just have a huge set bonus Plinko board but I prefer my delusion.)

 

Next expansion there initially are no new ops or bosses we'll be spending our nights relearning how to do the old content the way it was intended to be done instead of face rolling it. The downside of this is the shear number of ops and bosses to be learned\relearned.

Presumably when a new Op does come out it would have a new Tier with new set bonuses thus I recommend making these intermediate Set Bonuses things that helps either the tank or the whole raid deal with the learning curve.

 

2p - Movement Speed increased by x% for each hit of untargeted damage (AOE). IE help you get out of Fire quicker once you realize your standing in it.

 

4p - CD on Taunt reduced by x% for each debuff or stack of a debuff applied. Helps recover from a mistaunt in a tank swap.

 

6p - On use the focused defense(or warding Call or Saber Ward) effect is applied to all members of the ops team. An additional Op Wide CD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Set bonuses are irrelevant.

 

Jug tanking in pvp is a complete joke.

 

The immortal tree is laughable by design.

 

The "enhanced dps"(????) attributes are disgraceful.

 

I get that sabre reflect is a major component for pve bosses, but it's useless in common pvp applications, given its puny attributes and cooldown, within unpredictable punitive contexts.

 

Crushing blow??? Lmfao. If crushing blow could deliver and also spread the Shii-cho force crush effect, then pvp jug tanks *might* stand a chance at comparable dps output like our PT counterparts.

 

Until they revamp the Immortal tree, pvp jug tanking will always be a pathetic waste of time.

 

Atrocious. ATROCIOUS!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
A set bonus increasing defense chance by a small amount would be amazing

 

Why would we need even more protection against M/R+K/E damage? Juggs are vulnerable to F/T+KE damage and thats why we need shield or absorb. Furthermore I/E damage was increased within the new operations which made Assasin Tanks really valuable for their increased protection against this damage type especially with the old 186 gear. Not to mention PTs with their gread DCD Explosive fuel which increased their chance to resist I/E damage by 30%. Either more shield/absorb or more shielding by sonic barrier/sonic wall otherwise Juggs will fall behind.

 

Furthermore defense does not do anything in pvp. Keep in mind that pvp setbonus and pve setbonus are the same. Most dmg in pvp is F/T+KE. Thus we need more shield or absorb. Compared to pts or assas Juggs just have the lowest shield and absorb of those classes because most of our skills only increase defense chance. Looking at the new class talents also reveals that ravage now gives us 6% more defense. Wow even more uselessness. This exactly shows how much designers want the jug to be the defense tank, instead of balancing the classes. But without making F/T+K/E defendable with the new addon the changes are going to make the juggernaut the worst tank.

 

I get that sabre reflect is a major component for pve bosses, but it's useless in common pvp applications, given its puny attributes and cooldown, within unpredictable punitive contexts.

 

It was made less useful for most pve bosses

Edited by Methoxa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Why would we need even more protection against M/R+K/E damage? Juggs are vulnerable to F/T+KE damage and thats why we need shield or absorb. Furthermore I/E damage was increased within the new operations which made Assasin Tanks really valuable for their increased protection against this damage type especially with the old 186 gear. Not to mention PTs with their gread DCD Explosive fuel which increased their chance to resist I/E damage by 30%. Either more shield/absorb or more shielding by sonic barrier/sonic wall otherwise Juggs will fall behind.

 

Furthermore defense does not do anything in pvp. Keep in mind that pvp setbonus and pve setbonus are the same. Most dmg in pvp is F/T+KE. Thus we need more shield or absorb. Compared to pts or assas Juggs just have the lowest shield and absorb of those classes because most of our skills only increase defense chance. Looking at the new class talents also reveals that ravage now gives us 6% more defense. Wow even more uselessness. This exactly shows how much designers want the jug to be the defense tank, instead of balancing the classes. But without making F/T+K/E defendable with the new addon the changes are going to make the juggernaut the worst tank.

 

 

 

It was made less useful for most pve bosses

 

100% agree with you man. I was trying to be sarcastic :p

 

Immortal Juggernauts have been given the short end of the stick, as it were. I'm glad they implemented some increases to Absorption with Aegis Assault in 3.0, and I'm hoping they do something additional so that as a tanking class we're more on par with our rivals. Sick of seeing only Powertechs and Assassins in the hardcore progression groups :mad::(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets be honest here people. Jugg tanking sucks!!!! Always has and always will until the devs stop catering to pvp players. Pvp and pve gear, set bonus, and so on should be completely different. I Jugg tanked for years and I will probably never use that toon again in a raid. Awesome defensive abbilities, Zero threat (this has been the issue since beta and the devs think that making a Jugg tank harder to kill is going to help my raid team, that's what my healers for). When are you going to give Juggs a decent chance of holding threat? Backhand? What a joke!! The whole class is a joke. The only tank worth playing is a powertech and you guys are going to screw that up with 4.0 i'm pretty sure. All because a bunch of pvp'ers are complaining. As usual. You guys have dumbed this game down worse than WOW, and bordering on GW2. PVE Jugg tanks don't need a passive speed boost brought on by proc. Assasin tanks have one, PT tanks have one, and of course once again juggs get the shaft. The gear that is available is a joke as well. Alacrity? Really? Why in God's name would any tank choose alacrity over main stat or tertiary? It's mind boggling that you guys would even have that discussion at the table. Before you start trying to improve (Bwhahahahahahahah!!!!!) the set bonuses, why don't you finally fix the myriad of things that have been wrong with Juggs since you guys launched this game? You've had 4 years!!!!!! And nothing!!!! So stupid!!!!. We need threat above and beyond anything else, a speed boost ability that is activated like the other tanks have, NO MORE ALACRITY!!! None of us care what you say about this worthless stat (Unless your a healer). Alacrity should not be in a single piece of gear, at all. for tanks. Period!! Get it through your heads!!! NO ALACRITY!!! Threat, we need threat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't see why people are complaining about jugg tank threath? I rarely have issues with it, only times I might lose aggro is when opening and everybody's got all their offensives and is doing opening burst, which is why the 4piece is so great, because you get a straight 18 seconds of guaranteed boss facing you, which is enough time to gather enough aggro.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't see why people are complaining about jugg tank threath? I rarely have issues with it, only times I might lose aggro is when opening and everybody's got all their offensives and is doing opening burst, which is why the 4piece is so great, because you get a straight 18 seconds of guaranteed boss facing you, which is enough time to gather enough aggro.

 

Totally agree with this. The class is not overly difficult to play.

 

I think with the changes brought about to the class in 3.0, Immortal Juggernauts got a decent boost to AoE threat. Crushing Blow in combination with the Aegis Assault buff and our Sweeping Slash attack both hit up to 8 targets, up from 4. Saber Reflect also helps a lot with generating threat on multiple targets. Yes, Powertechs and Assassins still perform better for AoE threat, but I think that's the beauty in playing the class -- it's challenging, but fun.

 

I think the only issue I have is when targets are spread out, just the affects of being a purely melee class. I find Threatening Scream + Saber Reflect helps in these sort of situations.

Edited by Horano_Heresy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
I really miss the old school 2 piece set bonus that provided a 10% self heal on intercede.

 

I tried a couple warzones with the 8% heal, swapped a couple armours out and took the reduced intercede cooldown. Problem was each warzones had 3 healers per team lmao. It would heal me for 3401 each time I would friendly leap, which was every 15 seconds i think. But heh, yeah I wish they would introduce the heals on intercede as well, for the level 65 set bonuses. Good times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Why would we need even more protection against M/R+K/E damage? Juggs are vulnerable to F/T+KE damage and thats why we need shield or absorb. Furthermore I/E damage was increased within the new operations which made Assasin Tanks really valuable for their increased protection against this damage type especially with the old 186 gear. Not to mention PTs with their gread DCD Explosive fuel which increased their chance to resist I/E damage by 30%. Either more shield/absorb or more shielding by sonic barrier/sonic wall otherwise Juggs will fall behind.

 

Furthermore defense does not do anything in pvp. Keep in mind that pvp setbonus and pve setbonus are the same. Most dmg in pvp is F/T+KE. Thus we need more shield or absorb. Compared to pts or assas Juggs just have the lowest shield and absorb of those classes because most of our skills only increase defense chance. Looking at the new class talents also reveals that ravage now gives us 6% more defense. Wow even more uselessness. This exactly shows how much designers want the jug to be the defense tank, instead of balancing the classes. But without making F/T+K/E defendable with the new addon the changes are going to make the juggernaut the worst tank.

 

 

 

It was made less useful for most pve bosses

 

Agreed on the need some kind of boost to shield/absorb and/or an enhanced blade/sonic barrier. Also, for the need for that high defense chance to be usable (in some measure..perhaps as just a slight increase to DR vs. those attacks) on F/T+K/E based attacks.

 

Totally agree with this. The class is not overly difficult to play.

 

I think with the changes brought about to the class in 3.0, Immortal Juggernauts got a decent boost to AoE threat. Crushing Blow in combination with the Aegis Assault buff and our Sweeping Slash attack both hit up to 8 targets, up from 4. Saber Reflect also helps a lot with generating threat on multiple targets. Yes, Powertechs and Assassins still perform better for AoE threat, but I think that's the beauty in playing the class -- it's challenging, but fun.

 

I think the only issue I have is when targets are spread out, just the affects of being a purely melee class. I find Threatening Scream + Saber Reflect helps in these sort of situations.

 

Agreed on this as well. I have never really had a problem with threat generation or maintenance. If anything, I accidentally pull off PT's and Assassins rather easily if I am not paying attention to my threat. We can generate threat pretty easily with our rotation.

 

The taunt bonus from the 4 piece is okay, but it's not very useful for Guardians/Juggernauts who don't need to taunt fluff for threat. Personal opinion is that taunt fluffing shouldn't be necessary at all in ops/FP's/regular play (save for specific fights or phases as an added challenge). The DR bonus from the 2 piece is good..but I would rather it be placed back on Guardian Strike by default (like it used to be) and have that 2 piece bonus replaced with something else (perhaps the Taunt bonus?).

 

As for the 4 piece, I agree with some of the other posters here that have asked for bringing back the 20-30% shield boost to blade barrier. I have a slightly long winded reason why.

 

Here is a link to the current tanking stats for optimally geared tanks:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=842859

 

Guardians/Juggernauts are around 50+ points of damage tanked per second behind the others at a minimum. Let's not even go into our dps (we can generate threat really well, but that doesn't mean we hit hard). Part of the reason for this is our reliance on blade barrier and the fact that it's strength hasn't been keeping up with the damage output in raids. Also, our shield/absorb, as mentioned before, is much lower compared to the other tanks.

Think link here is to the predictions for each tank's possible DTPS with time. Guardians primarily slip behind due to blade barrier being so integral to our rotation and its strength not scaling. Note, this link has not been updated for 4.0, so look at the first link I posted for the 4.0 stats.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=804989

 

Re-changing how the class tanks is not going to happen, and if anything it is not entirely necessary. However, if we are going to have to tank a certain way (Blade barrier+heavy defense), we'll need some boosts in either passive abilities or set bonuses to keep up with the others so that we're still AS raid viable as the other tanks (we are raid viable at present, it's just better to bring the others).

My suggestion is to either bring back the 20% bonus to blade barrier, have some ability provide a buff that will increase the next blade barrier's effectiveness (which will indirectly provide an increased barrier), or provides a direct bonus to our force healing (which also empowers our Focused Defense).

 

Just my two cents.

Edited by Siefer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

2p bonus

 

You've never exactly been generous with stat boosts, so, I guess, for a 2p bonus it's ok. A whole 2% reminds me of that "20% chance to shoot an extra whatever" in D3 that never procced; like, you never see that it procs, you forget that it's there, you don't really care, and if you get the chance to change it to something better, you will.

 

4p bonus

 

Now this is quite great, actually, and I don't feel like I should have to mention why.

 

6p bonus

 

Blade Turning? Hmm, that's actually quite lovely. Now I can doze off a little more.

 

Invincible, who cares? The only time I ever use Invincible is when I'm near death, at which point I use it with Saber Ward, and I die anyway, because I took on more than I could handle. Lower the cooldown by more than 3 seconds, and I might actually care to remember that this ability exists.

 

Quick recap:

 

The 6p bonus should be the 2p bonus.

The 2p bonus should be the 4p bonus.

The 4p bonus should be the 6p bonus.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited by Nilatis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...
2p bonus

 

You've never exactly been generous with stat boosts, so, I guess, for a 2p bonus it's ok. A whole 2% reminds me of that "20% chance to shoot an extra whatever" in D3 that never procced; like, you never see that it procs, you forget that it's there, you don't really care, and if you get the chance to change it to something better, you will.

 

 

^This, pretty much describes my feelings when I saw that bonus the first time... so... meh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
  • 8 months later...
  • 3 months later...

For me i think we should have the following bonuses, in what order is down to the community

 

force scream generates a shield that absorbs a moderate amount of damage (this is an older effect that used to be on threatening scream i believe)

 

have one of our core rotation abilities reset the cool down of single target taunt

 

interceding to a target heals you for 8% and removes all threat from that target

 

all of those are useful to some extent in both pvp and pve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...