Just taking the movie aspect out of it, events of ROTJ takes place 23 years after the fight on Mustafar. Vader has been a practicing Sith all that time. Prior to that he was training as a Jedi from the age of 8 or 10.

 

The events of ROTJ takes place 1 year after Empire (although the novelization gives the time period as six months), so that is how long Luke has been studying, on his own, since leaving Yoda to save Han.

 

So, cut the kid some slack eh?

 

So the great Galatic Empire only survived for 1 year?

Annie was the best. Hands down. And it was truly him who brought balance not Luke. Remember it was him who killed the emperor, not Luke.

A joke yes, obviously it happened. Anikin also thought he won. Plus I belive in one of the books it goes into details on a duel between the two.

as i understand it, mace windu, being the senoir council member, was the better swordsman. yodas power was understanding the force, and teaching others. yoda was wise, windu was powerful.

 

anakin was stronger than obi wan, even while he was a padawan, but his arrogance, inexperience and impatience lost him the fight with obi wan.

 

luke is actually the one of the greatest of the jedi, cause he did what neither obi wan or yoda could do. he brought vader back to the light, which is the true sign of a jedi.

 

at least thats my opinion from what ive seen and read

i totally agree in the movies he sucked at fighting especially in ROTJ but i heard in the books he becomes really strong

 

The EU authors have made Luke into the character he should have been all along. Even when Jacen Solo eventually turned into full on Sith, he feared Luke in a straight up battle and always planned to never have to face him.

That quote was a painfully obvious joke from Obi-Wan.

 

Yoda sat Dooku down pretty easily and Dooku's style was very well documented as being dangerous to Jedi because he never adapted his technique to the more modern blaster bolt deflecting styles.

 

Also, in one of the pre-clone war books written from Mace Windu's point of view; his inner monologue reflects his desire to one day be able to best Yoda in swordsmanship. His vaapad technique works well to over power most swordsman, but Yoda simply doesn't wear down.

I like to think that Anikin brought balance to the force by bring Luke into the world.

Its just something I thought of and nothing else. But Anikin destroy all but 2 of the jedi that we know of, and there were two sith. THen when luke became a jedi there was still to Yoda and Luke. "now I am speaking in a vast term when I say jedi, since Luke was not fully trained" Then when luke brought Anikin back to the Light side, Anikin the detroyed one of the sith, before destroying himself. Just the way I look at it. I take all the events that happened and find a way to make sure they are connected.

Mace is the best hands down. He only lost to Sidious because Anakin interfered. This is why he has the purple blade, to show that he is the most skilled Jedi with a sabre.

as i understand it, mace windu, being the senoir council member, was the better swordsman. yodas power was understanding the force, and teaching others. yoda was wise, windu was powerful.

 

anakin was stronger than obi wan, even while he was a padawan, but his arrogance, inexperience and impatience lost him the fight with obi wan.

 

luke is actually the one of the greatest of the jedi, cause he did what neither obi wan or yoda could do. he brought vader back to the light, which is the true sign of a jedi.

 

at least thats my opinion from what ive seen and read

 

Yoda was the Jedi Grand Master, as Luke now is in his Order (EU) and as Satele Shan is in SW:TOR. Yoda relied heavily on the wisdom of the council, but he made decisions pretty much unilaterally.

 

Many times Mace gave orders, but he and Yoda were having private "force" conversations and came to an agreement silently.

Mace is the best hands down. He only lost to Sidious because Anakin interfered. This is why he has the purple blade, to show that he is the most skilled Jedi with a sabre.

 

true true...

wow, just wow... (Not the game, just an exclamation of disgust)

Mace is the best hands down. He only lost to Sidious because Anakin interfered. This is why he has the purple blade, to show that he is the most skilled Jedi with a sabre.

 

We don't really know how much of that was Mace dominating or just Sidious sand bagging to complete his play on Anakin. Mace was very much a match for Sidious, but it was obvious that Yoda was legitimately going to to defeat him and just had an unlucky fall that decided the battle.

I like your idea on Mace being the best, but his purple lightsaber has nothing to do with it.

The only reason he has a purple lightsaber is because it was the only way he aggreed to do the movies. If you want a reason why for SWU then it would prolly be that he got lucky and found it I really dont think the jedi would be like" oh your the biggest BA in all the land here is a purple color crystal" Mace wasvery good with a saber as for the fight with Sidious, I also think the he was sandbaging to get Anikin on his side.

We don't really know how much of that was Mace dominating or just Sidious sand bagging to complete his play on Anakin. Mace was very much a match for Sidious, but it was obvious that Yoda was legitimately going to to defeat him and just had an unlucky fall that decided the battle.

 

Incorrect. We do know. Mace, according to Lucas won the lightsaber duel. This cannot be disputed. Mace = a better swordsman than Sidious. According to the novelization Mace was just about to lose his grip on his saber when.. Sidious suddenly stopped and feigned weakness. If Sidious kept up the lightning, Mace was going to lose his grip and.. that'd have been that.

 

So pretty much. Mace can defeat Sidious in saberskill. Sidious is still more powerful. Note that Mace is likely a better swordsman than Yoda. Vaapad works it's best against dark side users. Which Yoda is not. It's able to use the opponent's inner darkness against them. Yoda doesn't really have any inner darkness.

 

Mace, in the novels, has made it very clear that even he is wary of his own form and holds back. He comes very close to darkness when using his form. In the novelization of ROTS it states that Windu gave himself fully over to his form, which while a huge risk, was completely necessary. Pretty much Windu was using Vaapad like he's never done before. Which makes sense because everything was on the line. If in all his years he was holding back and in that one fight he put everything he had into his form.. it's very likely in that one moment. He was the superior swordsman.

 

This is what the Novelization says about Yoda's duel with Sidious.

 

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

 

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

 

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

 

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

 

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

 

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

 

Finally, he saw the truth.

 

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

 

just--

 

didn't--

 

have it.

 

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

 

He had lost before he was born.

 

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

 

They had become new.

 

While the Jedi--

 

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

 

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

This is what Leland Chee has to say about it

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

Yoda clearly lost to Sidious.

 

There was no unlucky fall. The same way OBi Wan maneuvered Anakin into him having the high ground is the same thing Sidious did. He maneuvered Yoda into the senate chambers. It was no accident they ended up there. Further, when Yoda leaps back up on the senate pods. Sidious turns and blasts at him with lightning. Yoda blocks with his lightsaber and loses his saber than resorts to force absorption. Had neither of them fallen off Sidious would have his saber. Yoda's saber was all the way at the bottom. Assuming it didn't break from the fall.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Rhyltran

 

While the Jedi--

 

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

 

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

I agree with you here, however a thousand of years of preparation would not be left to chance regarding the defeat of Windu. Your suggestion is that Sidious somehow underestimated him, but the same breath he was able to manipulate the fight with Yoda to his own terms. I don't buy that at all.

 

If Sidious had any doubts at all that he would not be able to cleanly defeat Windu, then he would have never executed his plan with the need to face him in battle. He would have simply eliminated him.

 

Mace is one of my favorite jedi, but he very clearly allowed himself to be used as a pawn because of his rigid belief structure. This is reason why I love the EU's representation of Luke's Order. Luke has all but figured out the fallacies of the previous Order and corrected them to leave room for adaptation.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Valsdad

I agree with you here, however a thousand of years of preparation would not be left to chance regarding the defeat of Windu. Your suggestion is that Sidious somehow underestimated him, but the same breath he was able to manipulate the fight with Yoda to his own terms. I don't buy that at all.

 

If Sidious had any doubts at all that he would not be able to cleanly defeat Windu, then he would have never executed his plan with the need to face him in battle. He would have simply eliminated him.

 

Mace is one of my favorite jedi, but he very clearly allowed himself to be used as a pawn because of his rigid belief structure. This is reason why I love the EU's representation of Luke's Order. Luke has all but figured out the fallacies of the previous Order and corrected them to leave room for adaptation.

 

That quote was about Yoda and Yoda's point of view. Not Mace Windu's or Sidious. As for his battle with Windu. Windu was going to die regardless if Anakin came in or didn't. The novelization makes that clear as well. Either way he was going out the window.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Rhyltran

The novelization makes that clear as well. Either way he was going out the window.

 

Lol, yep. I need to go back and re-read the novelization. I've read so many SW books that they all seem to run together.

Putting aside the difference in technology from the 80s to 2000s.....

 

From a story point of view, Anakin was trying to kill Obiwan with all his might.

 

Luke and Vader were not trying to kill each other. They each wanted to bring the other to their side. It wasnt until vader threatened leia that luke actually wanted to hurt/kill vader. Well, at that point, you have Mark Hammil fighting an older, tall man wearing a bulky mechanical suit.....Yeah, minus some CGI, its not gonna look fantastic.

Luke becomes a ridiculously powerful Jedi after he movies. He throws conventional force theories out the window and creates his own force techniques that incorporate both the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith, while still staying as a force for good. In the book The Swarm War he uses force storm to kill 50 or so Kiliks in an anti grav chamber while he was without his lightsaber. That's power

Luke becomes a ridiculously powerful Jedi after he movies. He throws conventional force theories out the window and creates his own force techniques that incorporate both the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith, while still staying as a force for good. In the book The Swarm War he uses force storm to kill 50 or so Kiliks in an anti grav chamber while he was without his lightsaber. That's power

 

That was the lightside version of it known as "electric judgement." that Plo Koon invented awhile back.

His training under Obi-Wan only goes as far as that initial lesson on the Falcon. He then has 3 years is it where he's training on his own. Logically, he can't have been on Degobah for that long when he leaves.

 

However long he gets with Yoda and then another 6months to a year on his own.

 

That's actually always been my biggest issue with the original trilogy. Luke seems to advance way to fast and with limited training. With zero lightsabre to lightsabre training he manages to hold his own against Vader and then a year later, defeat him.

 

Well Luke did have the potential of the chosen one, which means he has an affinity for accelerated learning. He probably learned more in 4 years that it takes a regular jedi to learn in a decade, whats more impressive is that Luke didn't need all the fancy stuff of the old jedi era had which only makes his advancement in learning even more impressive. By the time he fought Vader on Cloud City, sure he lost but even he impressive a dark lord of a sith by his fighting ability.

Luke sadly was only trained by old men who were out of there prime. This really look bad for him on technical skill or was it that the stunt director was not as verse in different martial arts as the stunt director from the prequals.

From a story point of view (disregarding the difference in technology when the movies were filmed), I don't see the problem with the Luke vs. Vader fight(s).

 

Vader has probably not been in a legitimate lightsaber duel for a long time before he fights Luke. Who would he fight? Virtually every Jedi is dead after Order 66, and the few remaining tend to get killed by the Emperor's Hands rather than by Vader himself. Not to mention, he's now decades older than he was back then, and he has all kinds of bulky prosthetic limbs and attachments that he needs in order to just keep himself alive. He can't even breathe without help from the machines, and you expect him to be in top physical dueling form? Come on.

 

Not to mention, if we go strictly from a midichlorian standpoint (bear with me here, I don't like the midichlorian explanation either), Anakin gets pretty messed up in his fight on Mustafar. If I recall, he loses two legs around the knees, and loses an arm. If midichlorians are in your blood (and we don't know if they can be regenerated... I've never heard or read of anything that claims this), he now has a much lower midichlorian count post-Mustafar than he did pre-Mustafar. This is just a fact: if you lost three limbs, you'd have a lower overall blood cell count than you did before.

 

Luke on the other hand is still young when he fights Vader, and has just recently trained (albeit incomplete training). He is also not trying to kill Vader, he's trying to convert Vader back to the light, as Vader is trying to coerce his son to the Dark Side. Neither is legitimately trying to kill anyone. That's why there's so much tension in these fights because the duels are more of an emotional battlefield than a physical one.

Originally Posted by Maruset

As I recall from...somewhere, lightsabers were originally intended to be very heavy, unwieldy weapons.

 

They weren't intended to be, they just came out that way because the props were heavy metal poles.

 

Oh yes they were. George Lucas said so in the interviews in the Original Trilogy DVD special features. I just happened to watch it again the other day. George wanted the actors to fight like the LS were really heavy as swords were from medieval times. However, he changed his mind as he got into the prequels because those jedi were supposed to be much better trained and he knew the fans were expecting faster LS combat.

From a story point of view (disregarding the difference in technology when the movies were filmed), I don't see the problem with the Luke vs. Vader fight(s).

 

Vader has probably not been in a legitimate lightsaber duel for a long time before he fights Luke. Who would he fight? Virtually every Jedi is dead after Order 66, and the few remaining tend to get killed by the Emperor's Hands rather than by Vader himself. Not to mention, he's now decades older than he was back then, and he has all kinds of bulky prosthetic limbs and attachments that he needs in order to just keep himself alive. He can't even breathe without help from the machines, and you expect him to be in top physical dueling form? Come on.

 

Not to mention, if we go strictly from a midichlorian standpoint (bear with me here, I don't like the midichlorian explanation either), Anakin gets pretty messed up in his fight on Mustafar. If I recall, he loses two legs around the knees, and loses an arm. If midichlorians are in your blood (and we don't know if they can be regenerated... I've never heard or read of anything that claims this), he now has a much lower midichlorian count post-Mustafar than he did pre-Mustafar. This is just a fact: if you lost three limbs, you'd have a lower overall blood cell count than you did before.

 

Luke on the other hand is still young when he fights Vader, and has just recently trained (albeit incomplete training). He is also not trying to kill Vader, he's trying to convert Vader back to the light, as Vader is trying to coerce his son to the Dark Side. Neither is legitimately trying to kill anyone. That's why there's so much tension in these fights because the duels are more of an emotional battlefield than a physical one.

 

Vader was practiced. Sith practice diligently even if they're not fighting anyone. You are mostly right however. Vader did not want to kill Luke. Luke called him out of it in return of the Jedi. He could sense the conflict within him. To use the dark side properly. You must give in to your passions. Being conflicted means you can't fight to your full potential and when you don't want to kill someone you're going to hold back. The dark side, along with his suit, was the only thing keeping him alive. So not being able to use the dark side had an even worse effect on Vader than it would against a normal force user. He was literally crippled by his conflict in ROTJ.

 

In the jedi academy series. Luke expresses that if Vader really wanted to kill him. He'd have been dead. This makes sense. Vader is one of the best duelists the order has ever seen. If he wanted to kill Luke.. it'd have been over.