We agree that Gunslingers/Snipers need a bit more, as far as PvP survivability is concerned. We are open to hearing the community’s ideas here. Specifically, what would the community like to see done that increases the Gunslinger’s/Sniper’s survivability in PvP without increasing their survivability in PvE?

Usually, the problem is being stunned and killed while stunned. Give Gunslingers / Snipers some damage reduction while stunned. In PvE, you are usually not attacked while stunned too much, but in PvP, most damage comes while you are stunned. Vital Regulators / Cool Under Pressure seems like a good skill to put this ability under.

It is possible that we might even decide to address the Scatter Bombs issue in a prior update, but would Saboteur/Engineering players want this skill toned down if they are not also receiving an overhaul to the rest of their skill tree with it? Let us know!

Yes, if you increase the damage that Incendiary Grenade / Plasma Probe does.

Both have almost the same cooldown. Incendiary Grenade / Plasma Probe is much easier to use than Scatter Bombs. It also discourages hybrid specs somewhat and does not involve changing more that the 2 skills.

The rest of the rotation and skills are doing fine. Some of us like the long rotation this one has. XS Freighter Flyby / Orbital Strike could use a small buff though in this tree. Maybe Arsonist / Experiment Explosives could increase XS Freighter Flyby / Orbital Strike damage somewhat.

Edit: Going to re-evaluate my opinion on the three questions later.

I saw what you wrote earlier (I am not calling you out on it btw!), and as much as I don't like what's in yellow there are very strong points in their answer (with exceptions to one or two points). All I hope is that the PvP survivability issue gets sorted out soon and for the new expansion to come before the next world cup.

I could do without the cheese of scatter bombing people twice in a row; but if you say it can wait until I get something in return, I'd wait.

I actually like Sab as is, personally outside the scatter bomb thing. It's clunky if you try to put everything in some sort of rotation which probably is ideal for DPS performance for PvE players, but I just don't use it like that I guess. All about the set up for burst for me. Maybe if I lived long enough to set up...

Either way, I think i will be happy so long as slinger/sniper both keep their identity with cover. I love the cover system for a ranged class to give a reason to take a knee or go prone to "aim" in a sense rather than run around kiting.

The parses that the best players can do, show the sniper at the bottom of all classes now. (not counting Eng for ops)

Is a shield twice per Boss fight worth between 100 and 500 DPS under the best of circumstances?

Both Marksman and Lethality could use a slight buff to get at least somewhat closer to the other classes imho. Marksman aoe especially is kinda sad.

PvP Damage -> Some sort of reduced dmg while stunned would help a lot for survivability in PvP.

In a nutshell:

[G]roup leaders still prefer a Gunslinger/Sniper. Gunslingers/Snipers still bring a lot of utility and survivability to a group.

[E]ven if

we increase Gunslinger/Sniper sustained damage output, the increase would

not

be very substantial.

Ah, these are not the issues we are looking for? Another perception problem, eh?

1) Because reasons, right? 2) Likewise, the utility and survivability make up for the sub-par DPS because reasons? 3) Thank you very much.

We do

not

have

any

plans regarding Gunslinger/Sniper survivability in PvP.

Thank you very much.

In the

expansion

after

Galactic Strongholds.

RotHC was released in April 2013. GSF was released 10 months later in February 2014. GS (planned and developed in parallel with GSF) was supposed to come 4 months later in June, but was postponed until August, 6 months later. So, in the best case scenario, this putative next expansion will be released anywhere between December 2014 (wishful thinking since none is planned) and June 2015 (more likely, possibly later)? Meaning the community will have to wait, oh, just another 5-11 months for you to resolve a problem which you identified way back in the last QA round? Again, thank you very much.

How many of you snipers would give up your "Utility" to have the orbital strike back?

Thanks for letting us know the class will still suck 6 months from now, guess its better than the assassin that sucked for 2 years.

GG snipers it was fun ride.

Ah, these are not the issues we are looking for? Another perception problem, eh?

1) Because reasons, right? 2) Likewise, the utility and survivability make up for the sub-par DPS because reasons? 3) Thank you very much.

 

It does make sense though, even with the dps difference guilds are still running 3 snipers 1 mara configuration to down content. And the funny part is, these guilds (without naming) are accused of taking the easy way in PvE. Do I need to go and start counting guild that are as well running with 4+ snipers in their 16-man OPs ?

Edit: Just to be clear, I do think they need the buff.

i feel like i read something similar to this before somewhere.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7486401#post7486401

i'll respond in detail later

In general I feel like what the devs are saying makes a lot of sense and is quite reasonable.

For their first answer, yes, I feel that after 2.8 raid groups are starting to realize that a sniper is no longer needed to compete in NiM operations, but is still very useful. In 8man there is no dps check strong enough so that a group cannot clear content with a sniper, 8man groups still have 1 sniper and 16man still stack snipers for the aoe shield. We're in a good spot for PVE. That being said, I'm still hoping for a damage buff but also acknowledging that it isn't strictly necessary.

I don't pvp so I can't comment much on that, and as for engineering yeah, they aren't miracle workers.

Keep up the good work devs, we appreciate you expressing knowledge of how snipers are currently balanced and that you also have limitations to remedy that.

Oh deary me, carrying that heavy force field generator is holding back my dps.

Disapointing and predictable answers.

Alright so I'm gonna write my opinions on the answers:

Q.1:

We believe that many operation group leaders still prefer bringing a reliable Gunslinger/Sniper to their operations over many of the other damage dealers in the game. Our goal in boosting the sustained damage output of other classes was to give those classes a chance to actually compete for a spot in an operation group (our hearts sank seeing operation groups full of nothing but Gunslingers/Snipers and Sentinels/Marauders in their DPS slots).

 

As you pointed out in your question, Gunslingers/Snipers still bring a lot of utility and survivability to an operation group. If it turns out that this utility is not enough to keep a spot in an operation group for a Gunslinger/Sniper, then we will adjust damage accordingly. We know that with all the utility Gunslingers/Snipers bring to an operation group, having Gunslingers/Snipers deal sustained damage equal to that of other classes will guarantee the Gunslinger/Sniper the spot over the other classes (in the opinion of many operation group leaders), so even if we do end up needing to increase Gunslinger/Sniper sustained damage output, the increase would not be very substantial.

 

While we are on the topic of damage versus utility (or utility tax, as some may call it), let us clear up some confusion here, as we are currently still in the process of transitioning away from the old way of thinking, and we have to explain our current balance philosophy based on a combination of old and new thinking.

 

• Old Way of Thinking (game update 2.0 and prior): Sentinels/Marauders and Gunslingers/Snipers need to bring the most DPS and the most utility, or they will not be brought to operations because they cannot tank or heal.
  
  
• New Way of Thinking (game updates after 2.0): Every damage-dealing specialization should bring some utility, and no class or classes should have absolute damage dominance over the others (though this must also come with the general understanding that there will always be differences that can lead to players calling out “best” and “worse” specializations, because all the specializations are different, and we do not intend to turn this game into Checkers in an effort to create perfect balance by eliminating all diversity).
  
  

 

In the expansion after Galactic Strongholds, we intend to give all of the damage dealers some utility, such that operation group leaders will want some utility or another from every damage dealer. At that time, we intend to make the damage output closer between each damage dealing specialization as well. But we cannot do this in a regular game update, because it is a massive overhaul to our existing systems and design philosophies, and it takes a significant amount of time to implement (longer than the typical 4-8 weeks that a normal update might take). So for now, while we are forced to work with the current iteration that was solidified in game update 2.0, we must continue to consider utility versus damage – otherwise we are short-sighted, and operation group leaders will continue to build groups that have nothing but Gunslingers/Snipers and Sentinels/Marauders in their DPS slots.

 

Our ultimate goal is for every damage dealing specialization to viably fill the DPS role in operations. We know that we are not there yet, but we have begun the long process to get there. Please be patient as we work toward this goal and as we refer back to our old design philosophy at times to defend some of our current balance decisions.

This is the only decent answer of all questions in my opinion. Not only addressing Gunslinger and Snipers, but also addressing their new way of approaching class balance. I do think our utility is strong enough to be viable DPS spots in progression raiding, so it is relieving that BioWare is seeing it as of now.

We do not currently have any detailed plans to share regarding Gunslinger/Sniper survivability in PvP, but we know that Warzone Arenas present Gunslingers/Snipers with some situations that are difficult to survive. In a prior update, we nearly made Dodge/Evasion grant practically full invulnerability for Gunslingers/Snipers, but we pulled the change out before it went live because many players were concerned that it would be too powerful.

 

We agree that Gunslingers/Snipers need a bit more, as far as PvP survivability is concerned. We are open to hearing the community’s ideas here. Specifically, what would the community like to see done that increases the Gunslinger’s/Sniper’s survivability in PvP without increasing their survivability in PvE?

Unfortunately, I can't speak much for PvP as I don't do ranked, but I can express some disappointment from this answer. Definitely similar to some PvP Survivalbility answers in other class forums in fact. If this answer can be more in-depth and apart from other class answers, then it would be just decent.

There will be major changes to the Saboteur/Engineering Gunslinger/Sniper in the expansion after Galactic Strongholds. At this time, we cannot discuss all the details of these changes, but we can say that the changes will address the damage done by Scatter Bombs and the clunky feeling of the specialization without eliminating area-of-effect capabilities.

 

It is possible that we might even decide to address the Scatter Bombs issue in a prior update, but would Saboteur/Engineering players want this skill toned down if they are not also receiving an overhaul to the rest of their skill tree with it? Let us know!

Another disappointing answer, mostly because it was already a given assumption that Engineering will receive a major overhaul in the expansion. I was hoping that the developers would at least modify the Engineering spec mostly in 2.9, but it looks like that won't be the case.

I also would not recommend taking away or nerfing Scatter Bombs without rectifying other AoE damage capabilities. Leave it as it is and change it along with the major updates you developers will be planning in the expansion.

@Znihilist, I did edit out the original post as "disappointing" without my analysis, but I was out with my cell phone available to see the questions. But still, I still stand by my judgment that these questions failed to at least give me a good impression for my fun class.

Hopefully 3.0 will be the new era of balancing.

EDIT: @Skotal, you were right all along.

@Znihilist, I did edit out the original post as "disappointing" without my analysis, but I was out with my cell phone available to see the questions. But still, I still stand by my judgment that these questions failed to at least give me a good impression for my fun class.

Oh as I said, I wasn't calling you out on it (not for what you wrote or for the edit). I just felt that it was interesting enough for me to give an opinion on what's going on.

There will be major changes to the Saboteur/Engineering Gunslinger/Sniper in the expansion after Galactic Strongholds. At this time, we cannot discuss all the details of these changes, but we can say that the changes will address the damage done by Scatter Bombs and the clunky feeling of the specialization without eliminating area-of-effect capabilities.

Wildcard question first for me as it's the question I care about the most. It's nice to hear that there are changes planned but it's the timeframe that concerns me. Eric, I thank you for the information but I truly believe we need some kind of indication on how long we can expect to wait. I'm all for expansions but as you haven't even announced what it is yet it doesn't give me any hope that it'll be any time soon. Essentially, please can you go back to the devs to get some kind of time frame, it doesn't have to be exact but 1 month, 2, 6 months? 12 months? No information on that is going to be highly frustrating to the extreme and I'm sure you can appreciate that fact.

Some kind of time frame even if it is open to change is far better and easier to live with than none whatsoever.

It is possible that we might even decide to address the Scatter Bombs issue in a prior update, but would Saboteur/Engineering players want this skill toned down if they are not also receiving an overhaul to the rest of their skill tree with it? Let us know!

From a pvp perspective in a heart beat!! The ability to do wall bangs need to be removed entirely, it's bad for the spec. To some degree I'm amazed that other classes aren't complaining about it (could be it's due to there not being many of us around). My own personal opinion is I don't care if it would gimp my spec, I simply want it gone.

PVE however is an entirely different question, I understand that if it was removed or toned down then that would hurt the spec quite a bit. So a compromise for me would be to take that damage away from scatter bombs, tone it down and put it on plasma probe. That way you still have some sort of control about it.

Specifically, what would the community like to see done that increases the Gunslinger’s/Sniper’s survivability in PvP without increasing their survivability in PvE?

That's a very difficult question, with the way things are currently there's just no way you can because as soon as you buff something for pvp you also buff it for pve. Therefore the most obvious one would be to alter the pvp armour set bonuses.

The only way you could alter something for pvp without making it available for pve is to actually code it (it meaning whatever the buff/change is) so it only works in pvp. You've done it for warzone medpacs and certain skills have different effects on weak, standard, elite and boss pve mobs so why not the same for pvp? So with that in mind why not give a boost to the amount of damage shield probe absorbs?

I'd gladly take a raid-wide shield debuff like the Bloodthrist debuff if that's all it took to get some bigger damage buffs(and some QoL debuffs for MM/Leth would of course be nice as well). Only thing I don't like about that idea is that there would be an additional debuff cluttering up my UI.

First off, it's not like gunslingers only have a shield. If that were the case then a shadow tank alone would be enough to trump their utility. They bring a lot of other tools to the table that push the scales quite a bit. On demand, low-cooldown moderate AoE is a big plus (not just Flyby, which is still passably good, but Thermal Grenade and Shrap Bomb in some specs). The roll can be utilized in certain interesting ways to the advantage of some groups (e.g. cheesing mechanics, but sometimes just controlled mobility). Hunker Down is very powerful, and while it generally affords more of a personal advantage than a raid advantage, it can be both (think: EC Kephess 60% yank). Leg Shot, Cover Pulse, Dirty Kick, Diversion and Flash Grenade are also situationally invaluable for some fights (most of S&V NiM can be lolcheesed with four gunslingers). And of course, all of it pales in comparison to the utility of Shatter Shot, which is what makes it possible for a raid group to stack slingers and ignore Gunnery/Arsenal and/or the entire Guardian AC.

In short, gunslingers have a lot to offer even when they aren't using the shield. Massive massive amounts to offer. Bioware is right: raid leaders are still taking a lot of slingers into operations, just because of the utility (think: Severity Gaming). And people were stacking exclusively snipers and marauders in a lot of raid groups before the DPS was toned down.

As for the DPS, it's no where near as bad as most people think. My guild's first clear of NiM Raptus was with three slingers and a commando. We passed the DPS challenges and nearly beat the hard enrage…and one of the gunslingers had neither an off hand nor a main hand barrel equipped! (legacy gear fail) Given that slinger was in both challenges, that's really saying something. If slingers as a class were that far gone, then it wouldn't be possible to clear the tightest burst DPS check in the game with a DPS composition that is 75% gunslinger and 25% weaponless.

i feel like i read something similar to this before somewhere.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7486401#post7486401

 

i'll respond in detail later

O_O I need to look into whatever crystal ball you found...then again I suspected as much myself.

Looks like I'll just use this double XP week to grind out another class for whatever flavor-of-the-month class comes up next. A little piece of utility does not compensate for the current gap in dps. Bioware acts like they do not like the groups that run with 2 sentinel 2 gunslinger format, yet you do not see any sentinels being gimped of their huge numbers AND they get inspiration.

The only way you could alter something for pvp without making it available for pve is to actually code it (it meaning whatever the buff/change is) so it only works in pvp. You've done it for warzone medpacs and certain skills have different effects on weak, standard, elite and boss pve mobs so why not the same for pvp? So with that in mind why not give a boost to the amount of damage shield probe absorbs?

I'm a bit worried this would snowball into creating 16 advanced classes (8 for pve, 8 for pvp). Then again, this might very well be a great idea. I guess the only way to test it would be to see it live.

[..] Hunker Down is very powerful, and while it generally affords more of a personal advantage than a raid advantage, it can be both (think: EC Kephess 60% yank). Leg Shot, Cover Pulse, Dirty Kick, Diversion and Flash Grenade are also situationally invaluable for some fights (most of S&V NiM can be lolcheesed with four gunslingers). And of course, all of it pales in comparison to the utility of Shatter Shot, which is what makes it possible for a raid group to stack slingers and ignore Gunnery/Arsenal and/or the entire Guardian AC.

[..]

Are you kidding? In NIM no Mob can be rooted, kicked back, stunned or singel soft stunned for 10 sec during bossfights and no one stays in an aoe even with 60% damage reduction!

Uuuh I have a big shield every 3 min for what?

Dread Fortress:

First Boss: Running gag since 2.8

Second Boss: Every heal combination can take it easely

Third Boss: If you need a Shield, you have bad tanks

Fourth: Shield needed only if your heals have a bad day or need to replace undworld eq

Fifth: To much movement, so not needed

Dread Palce:

First Boss: only to protect half of the group or one tank in panic

Second Boss: When it is needed it is already to late mostly

Third Boss: To much movement and only used in panic moments

Forth Boss: DPS boss

Fifth Boss: The group is spread totaly and one tank is kicked while the other have to move

Conclusion: A big shield is only nice to have!

I prefer 500dps+ than an 3min cd shield that I mostly not use during bossfights and 500dps+ instead a shield will be nice little indirect buff to survive an arena

Thanks for the answers, especially no. 1.

PvP survivability will always be a tricky pony.. From my own experience, roots and stuns are what kills me the most. How about adding root break to Covered Escape? Shouldn't break PvE and allow us to get out of focus fire for 2-3 seconds IF we have Entrench up (avoiding stun lock). CE doesn't move us very far, most classes have a counter to CE already, stealth/sprint/LoS. Ranged classes almost don't exist in this game, since everyone can close gaps in a very short time.

As for Engineer, I don't like how roll banging works, I think it's hilariously fun, but it doesn't fit a ranged DPS. I suggested once to rename it to Explosive Rounds and make Series og shots deal moderate AoE damage around the target. Perhaps it would make SoS way too powerful for one skill though A buff to plasma probe and/or frag grenade would also be nice.

Are you kidding? In NIM no Mob can be rooted, kicked back, stunned or singel soft stunned for 10 sec during bossfights and no one stays in an aoe even with 60% damage reduction!

 

Uuuh I have a big shield every 3 min for what?

 

Dread Fortress:

First Boss: Running gag since 2.8

Second Boss: Every heal combination can take it easely

Third Boss: If you need a Shield, you have bad tanks

Fourth: Shield needed only if your heals have a bad day or need to replace undworld eq

Fifth: To much movement, so not needed

 

Dread Palce:

First Boss: only to protect half of the group or one tank in panic

Second Boss: When it is needed it is already to late mostly

Third Boss: To much movement and only used in panic moments

Forth Boss: DPS boss

Fifth Boss: The group is spread totaly and one tank is kicked while the other have to move

 

Conclusion: A big shield is only nice to have!

 

I prefer 500dps+ than an 3min cd shield that I mostly not use during bossfights and 500dps+ instead a shield will be nice little indirect buff to survive an arena

Have you actually ran Nightmare Ops? You can't be directly assuming that Sniper utility is useless in general. The Ballistic Shield and the 60% AoE Reduction is much more valuable than what you can perceive...

I'm sorry, but unless you have been clearing content in Nightmare, your assumptions are completely invalid.

FYI: Energy Orbs in NiM Brontes can be rooted.

Are you kidding? In NIM no Mob can be rooted, kicked back, stunned or singel soft stunned for 10 sec during bossfights and no one stays in an aoe even with 60% damage reduction!

Let's take these one at a time. Roots/stuns/knockbacks:

• Nefra - LOL?
  
• Draxus - Not in NiM
  
• Grob - If you cleared this boss pre-nerf, you know exactly how potent these utilities are. Even post-nerf, they're worth it
  
• Draxus - Not in NiM
  
• Brontes - My kingdom for a shorter cooldown on Leg Shot. Orbs can be stunned, mezed, rooted and knocked back. Clockwork adds can be stunned and mezzed (lower incoming damage).
  
• Bestia - Nada. Though, Diversion is nice if you have it.
  
• Tyrans - Well, the boss has immunity…
  
• Calphayus - I believe some of the adds do not have boss immunity, but I don't do the first past phase very much. Either way…lol?
  
• Raptus - Nope. Good thought though.
  
• Council - No adds.
  

If we extent to prior content:

• Writhing Horror - Nope
  
• Dread Guard - Not in NiM
  
• Operator IX - Almost all the adds can be rooted, stunned, mezed, knocked back and otherwise controlled. Many strategies leveraged this.
  
• Kephess - Unfortunately not.
  
• TfB - Also unfortunately not.
  
• Dash'roode - Womp rats and Xuuvas are both vulnerable. Very useful.
  
• Titan VI - Surprisingly not.
  
• Thrasher - Not in NiM
  
• Ops Chief - Oooooh yes, and very usefully too. Every add can be knocked back or stunned, though very few can be mezzed. This is super-helpful, especially on Blue and Gold. Oh, and also skipping past the droids on the way to the end.
  
• Olok - I wish. Oddly, some of the adds are susceptible, but immediately reset if you try it (see: final phase Arms Dealer).
  
• Cartel Warlords - Depends on which boss you kill last. In the standard NiM strategy, nothing is vulnerable. If however you're insane enough to try Horic last, you'll be treated to adds that cannot be mezzed but are vulnerable to everything else.
  
• Styrak - The grand-daddy Godfather of all utility bosses. Clearing this boss without at least one AoE knockback is hell. Clearing it with four is trivial. Clearing it with four roots *and* four knockbacks is hilariously easy.
  

Nightmare EC also contains a wide variety of physics-susceptible NPCs (particularly Kephess). However, off the top of my head, I do not believe that any of the NPCs in NiM EV or KP are susceptible, so I guess there was some truth in your statement.

So not applicable everywhere, but certainly useful enough to matter. I can think of a lot of utilities which provide less universal value (Inspiration, for example, which only matters during burn phases and is otherwise less than a fraction of the value of Shatter Shot alone).

As for the AoE DR, I didn't even mention that, but yes it is valuable. Use it on Calphayus (my guild actually gives every circle to the slingers for this reason). Use it on Brontes to make the final phase enormously easier (and yes, occasionally stand in bad for higher DPS). Use it on Nefra back when the DoT damage mattered (the DoT is, oddly, AoE). The list goes on…

First Boss: Running gag since 2.8

Second Boss: Every heal combination can take it easely

Sure, but pre-nerf shields were very helpful, particularly in phase 5. Groups running one or more slinger had a profound advantage here.

Third Boss: If you need a Shield, you have bad tanks

Fourth: Shield needed only if your heals have a bad day or need to replace undworld eq

Pre-nerf it was very useful in certain phases of hte fight when the damage was high if not cheesing the mine. We never cheesed the mine, so we needed shields in a few places.

Fifth: To much movement, so not needed

Watch some Brontes kill videos and then talk to me.

First Boss: only to protect half of the group or one tank in panic

With some creativity, there's actually a lot of strategies which become viable with a short-duration 20% reduction in damage.

Second Boss: When it is needed it is already to late mostly

Plan ahead more. Very useful if coordinated appropriately.

Third Boss: To much movement and only used in panic moments

Largely yes. Also this boss is LOL.

Forth Boss: DPS boss

Sort of. Making the healing in the final phase easier (especially if you failed a DPS challenge) is really nice. Certainly not needed, but appreciable.

Fifth Boss: The group is spread totaly and one tank is kicked while the other have to move

Group can't be spread out all the time. In fact, they really aren't. Also, the shield in the final burn is the most powerful defensive cooldown application point in the entire game by far.

I prefer 500dps+ than an 3min cd shield that I mostly not use during bossfights and 500dps+ instead a shield will be nice little indirect buff to survive an arena

Which is precisely why everyone is running four shadow DPS these days. Oh wait…