So here we are rounding into November and Operatives and Scoundrels are all but extinct because they still struggle to compete. DPS Sages and Sorcs are also on the endangered species list.

 

If the internal testing is saying operatives are capable of parsing anywhere near 5% of the curve they are wrong, Bioware.

 

I love my operative. It's by far my favorite character as I loved the story and I love the companions. I'm just tired of having to heal to be useful on this class.

 

5% difference is fine. No one is going to sweat the difference between 2k dps Maras and a possible 1900 dps operative. This is no where near the case. It's damn near impossible to break 1700 as an Op. Hell even 1600 is a struggle, especially considering how stupidly tight our rotations are. That's a 20% difference. Not even including Mara group cooldowns. Why in the hell would you willingly bring a class that does 20%+ less DPS?

 

I just don't understand, Bioware. Powertechs are in a solid place right now in this respect. They do similar numbers as Maras but don't bring the group utility. Fair tradeoff imo. Juggs and Assassins are close enough to the curve that it's more forgivable, but they're still lacking comparatively (madness assassins apparently do amazing theoretical dps, but I haven't seen that translated into actuality). Operatives? Yeah.. freaking.. right.

 

We're coming up on the year marker. Can year 2 be the year of equality? Please?

Yup. They said all DPS specs were intended to be within 5 percent of each other. Then they put in combat logging and we now see that some specs aren't even within 10 percent of others, and they haven't said one word about why or whether they intend to fix it. They have had two major patches out since then, with another on the PTS. They made balance changes, even nerfing some of these classes even further for PvP purposes and did nothing to close the disparity in PvE. It's insulting.

Scoundrel dps was the first character I ever played. I was heal spec for most of my time endgame, but switched to dps later. I remember first parsing on the dummy and struggling with it. I really had to concentrate, and one or 2 mistakes would put a big dent in my dps. I was wearing good gear, about Rakata level, actually with some black hole too as I recall.

 

Then I capped a powertech tank and specced pyro dps for the first time ever. My gear was pretty entry level - just daily mods level and Rakata earpiece/implants, non-augmented. Don't remember what my aim was, less than 1500 I think.

 

I found the pyro rotation straightforward and very forgiving, and was amazed to see I was doing almost as well as my geared scoundrel. After only 3 minutes on the dummy in worse gear! I can only imagine what I'd be pulling if I was in the equivalent level gear.

 

Sure it's fine to have some classes/specs with a higher skill level, but at least make our numbers a little more comparable. I mean this isn't even an issue of pure dps vs. hybrid class either.

 

(Edit: This was pre-1.4. I haven't parsed or raided on my scoundrel since the patch, but for some reason it feels like I'm hitting harder when doing dailies. Did we get a dmg buff of some kind?)

Edited October 27, 2012 by Stenrik

There is nothing wrong with an OPs damage in a raid format, well at least for lethality. There are a few raiding dps OPs on The Harbringer or at least alts that see a decent amount of play time.

 

The problem is survivability, utility and the amount of ACs that can fill the role as a melee dps. Look at PTs, Juggs, Sins, Mara; they all have good defensive cool downs and or a higher mitigation rating then a OP. This leads them to having higher survability, then OPs, this also means if played right they will take less damage and be less of a burden on healers.

 

Lets look at utility: Maras in their current form will always be given a spot due to their group buffs/best defensive CD's in the game (their cd's are better then any of the tanks actually). PTs have some of the best on demand burst in the game (that is easily executed), while having the ability to taunt (and actually have the armour to tank gold mobs in OPs) and the ability to pull mobs. Juggs, have the ability to taunt, intercede raid members (works well as a way to reduce damage done to them, and or lower their threat), they also provide an armour debuff if it isnt present. Sins, have the ability to taunt (but are squishy), can exit combat and rez, cleanse themselves of dots/debuffs. OPs, can exit combat and rez, able to spot heal (but so can 2 different range classes, cleanse themselves and/or others.

 

The biggest thing that are hurting OP dps in raids though is the fact that most 8 man groups try not to bring more then 2 melee dps. With Marauders basically getting a guaranteed spot based on their raid buffs (they are not needed, but they sure do help when progressing through new content), that leaves one spot open and 4 classes that can fill it. Myself would fill it based on this order of importance PT, Jugg, Sin, OP; the sin would get a spot before an OP based on survivability and uptime on dpsing.

 

There needs to be something more special about OPs dps then what there currently is, or at least their survivability needs to be increased, but either way i believe OPs will always be seen as a bastard dps due to the number of melee dps, and the size of raids.

Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.

 

That's an awful lot of utility, so asking to ramp up their DPS to be comparable to a pure DPS class like Marauder seems a bit over the top...and I play both classes. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.

 

That's an awful lot of utility, so asking to ramp up their DPS to be comparable to a pure DPS class like Marauder seems a bit over the top...and I play both classes. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

There is no such thing a a pure DPS class in PvE. All DPS classes are pure DPS. We aren't talking about PvP where off heals and stealth have real value. If a DPS is throwing off-heals in an operation, they aren't doing their job and are putting their group in serious danger of hitting enrage. DPS who do this will actually get yelled at by their healers. There are rare occasions where an off-heal is actually a benefit, but Marauders have bloodlust, which is valued far more than the rare off-heal. Stuns don't work on bosses and all heal classes have an in-combat res. And again, rezzing is the healer's job, not the DPS. If you use the phrase "pure DPS class" in one of these discussions, you don't understand the issue.

What they need to do is nerf inspiration on the sents. and either buff scoundrels or nerf the other classes. In the beginning scoundrels had too much dps but now we have much too little. It is by far the most fun class I have ever played but I am continually pushed aside for sents and sometimes even guardian dps. Edited November 11, 2012 by bryceman

Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.

 

Marauders have team buffs and better defensive cooldowns. That alone trumps any of the "utility" mentioned above, most of which is of little use in a raid environment

What they need to do is nerf inspiration on the sents. and either buff scoundrels or nerf the other classes. In the beginning scoundrels had too much dps but now we have much too little. It is by far the most fun class I have ever played but I am continually pushed aside for sents and sometimes even guardian dps.

 

If you look at the math inspiration/bloodthrist isnt quite as strong as you would think. Let say during a burst phase all 4 dps are pushing 2k dps, so a total of 8k dps total. BT adds 15% for 15 seconds, so it adds 1200 dps.... for a grand total of 18k more damage, which isnt game breaking imo.

If you look at the math inspiration/bloodthrist isnt quite as strong as you would think. Let say during a burst phase all 4 dps are pushing 2k dps, so a total of 8k dps total. BT adds 15% for 15 seconds, so it adds 1200 dps.... for a grand total of 18k more damage, which isnt game breaking imo.

 

Yes but that doesn't stop the entire community from bashing other melee classes (scrapper scoundrels, Vanguards, guardians). On my server the only time I get to bring in my scrapper scoundrel is if there are literally no other sents available.

If you look at the math inspiration/bloodthrist isnt quite as strong as you would think. Let say during a burst phase all 4 dps are pushing 2k dps, so a total of 8k dps total. BT adds 15% for 15 seconds, so it adds 1200 dps.... for a grand total of 18k more damage, which isnt game breaking imo.

 

That 18k can easily be the difference in some burst phases. Consider the battlewalker on EC HM Kephess. Having at least one Sentinel/Marauder on this fight is a HUGE advantage if your group is at all close on DPS.

A concealment op and hybrid sorc were keeping up with a mara and merc in the NM EC I was in this week. You can keep up, you just need to know your class.

Anecdotal evidence, sans data no less, is not useful to the discussion.

 

My op can pull 1700 dps. I know maras in NM EC that barely pull that. I also know maras that pull 2k+

 

A 300 dps difference is kind of huge.

I am a Scrapper Scoundrel, and keep up with every DPS class, and at times surpass them. However... If I make one MISTAKE, on my energy management/rotation, I am screwed. I just believe the Scrapper/Scoundrel Spec to be the most challenging and fun class to play. I also have an Operative that has the exact same spec (Vibro Knifes are very cool to).

A concealment op and hybrid sorc were keeping up with a mara and merc in the NM EC I was in this week. You can keep up, you just need to know your class.

 

I'm being serious when I say I'd like to see their gear/rotations so I can learn how to do that. My op is a healer but it would be nice to do something In a raid that's not healing. Every time I go dps I have to dust off my sorc when I would rather go with my op

 

Also - I use leahtilty as my dps spec, is that ok or derpy

I probably won't get a lot of love for this statement in this thread, but it was my understanding when I pre-ordered this game that Bioware would focus on PVP balance first. Op/Sc has seen it's damage abilities nerfed in the early patches because they were packing to much of a burst in PVP. Ideally they would be able to balance both. If PVE balance has to suffer to keep PVP as balanced as it can be, such is life in this mmo imo.

it was my understanding when I pre-ordered this game that Bioware would focus on PVP balance first.

 

Myself, and many others in fact, expected the game to be more PvE driven, since the main selling point has been the story. Apparently Bioware said this at some point as well (so I've heard from people on forums) but please don't take my word for that as I have absolutely nothing more than word of mouth to support that. Since it's such a story-driven game, it follows that they'd focus more on PvE balance than on PvP balance, or should do anyway. Saying that, they don't seem to have kept balance anywhere near the 5% that they claimed they were aiming for in either PvE or PvP.

 

If PVE balance has to suffer to keep PVP as balanced as it can be, such is life in this mmo imo.

 

1) If they ruined PvE balance consistently for PvP they would ruin themselves even more. Most people play this game for story and PvE in my experience. I don't deny there are plenty that do play PvP though.

2) Due to the nature of this game, PvE balance > PvP balance and it should always be that way. Sacrificing PvE for PvP is simply not fair at all.

 

TL;DR - PvE is more of a focus for SWTOR than PvP. As such, PvE balance should not suffer for the sake of PvP balance.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Codle

I hear a lot of people basically saying L2P. I would like to see a scoundrel push significantly higher than 1700 in a 5 minute parse. Show me a parse. Highest I've hit is 1650 in either spec. Augmented, optimized dread guard/campaign.

 

And yes, we used a sage DPS for the first 3 NiM EC bosses. He then switched to his lesser geared vanguard and it was insanely easier.

Edited December 21, 2012 by MelliMelon

I hear a lot of people basically saying L2P. I would like to see a scoundrel push significantly higher than 1700 in a 5 minute parse. Show me a parse. Highest I've hit is 1650 in either spec. Augmented, optimized dread guard/campaign.

 

And yes, we used a sage DPS for the first 3 NiM EC bosses. He then switched to his lesser geared vanguard and it was insanely easier.

 

Heh yep. I run my sorc as main now. Recently have been gearing out my ptech. Sorc is not quite full DG, ptech is not quite full BH and parsing about the same on bosses even with making many resource errors.

This is an easy fix, make all classes exact same skills, just different image. Class that shoots, just shoots light sabres instead. Done.

To any of you QQing sages that say it sucks, yeah dummy parses = bad. The 1/12/28 hybrid is the best dps for raiding and once you actually l2p, your numbers will be great, surpassing vanguards and sentinels in some fights.

To any of you QQing sages that say it sucks, yeah dummy parses = bad. The 1/12/28 hybrid is the best dps for raiding and once you actually l2p, your numbers will be great, surpassing vanguards and sentinels in some fights.

 

That is solely dependent on fight and skill. The hybrid spec is an amazing spec overall due to the fact that is really easy as its a 4 button rotation with no energy management. However lots of fights, Withering Horror, Denova Kephiss which you can stand still and turret the fight out telekinetic is better. Balance is too force tight in a lot of fights.

 

That is would also challenge Vanguards and Sentinels is just not true. Both personal experience and ranked logs show that sages are behind on nearly all the fight (if not all) in the game at the moment dps wise. Vanguards, Commandos, Gunslingers and Sentinels just have too much higher base dps. I love my Sage and love dps with it but it is behind more than it logically should.

 

*Also as a note, it would be nice seeing some Bioware response to the issue of dps imbalance overall in the game at the minute, Shadows, Sages and Scoundrels are falling behind and there is no reason why these classes should have lower dps.

Edited January 9, 2013 by MisterMuse

To any of you QQing sages that say it sucks, yeah dummy parses = bad. The 1/12/28 hybrid is the best dps for raiding and once you actually l2p, your numbers will be great, surpassing vanguards and sentinels in some fights.

 

On my sorc 3/7/31, I prefer it over the hybrid, almost full dreadguatd, I do routinely beat powertech and marauders.

 

But when I hop over to my BH geared powertech, I beat my sorcs numbers by like 200 DPS.

 

And I'm a lot more experienced and skilled on the sorc than I am on the ptech.

 

Not to mention on-demand burst for burn phases, which is nonexistent for a sorc, and an execute-style ability, and comparable or better (short term only) aoe.

*Also as a note, it would be nice seeing some Bioware response to the issue of dps imbalance overall in the game at the minute, Shadows, Sages and Scoundrels are falling behind and there is no reason why these classes should have lower dps.

reasons

stealth/overpowered healing but dps is correct/stealth

 

balance is there for pvp not pve so yea it works just the way it was ment to and it is fairly tight for similar gearing.

reasons

stealth/overpowered healing but dps is correct/stealth

 

balance is there for pvp not pve so yea it works just the way it was ment to and it is fairly tight for similar gearing.

 

DPS is not right at all between the classes and balance is there for both PvP and for PvE, all classes need to be able to keep the same level of end game quality in terms of dps and usefulness which just isn't the case. A Sage maximum dps (optimal gearing and 100% perfect execution) on a dummy at the moment lies around 1970 while Sentinels can reach up to above 2200, thats a damned 11% difference which is far to much for competitive gaming. Also the classes aren't even balanced for PvP. Its even worse for Scoundrels if I understand correctly which also needs to be meele distance at times.