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Why the Vanguard is considered balanced by EA/BW.


tehrealdealz

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why bother ss in game when i can just link in torhead?

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fAylTmX/death-field

 

Ok, I was slacking, I'll give you that one, but that does'nt make your statement correct.

 

Death field is a part of the madness tree which is one of few abilities that does internal damage (so called tank killer trees because they mainly deal internal damage) Lethality, madness, advanced prototype arsenal, annihilation are other type of these trees and are exceptions, now how about the 66% of the attacks that aren't internal damage (most dps classes have 1 internal damage tree with 2-4 abilities that deal internal damage while the rest don't)?

 

(I'm pretty sure you know you've lost aswell, you're just doing it because your stubborn as hell, because it's obvious very few of the force attacks/tech attacks are internal/elemental damage, everyone knows this)

 

Remember this was your statement we're discussing:

 

yay, again we have the "heavy armor" argument!

 

please remind me again how helpful that heavy armor is against force attacks?

 

Yet when I hover over my abilities on all my characters I barely can find force attacks that aren't kinetic/energy, strange.

Edited by Reveillere
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Remember this was your statement we're discussing:
yup

Yet when I hover over my abilities on all my characters I barely can find force attacks that aren't kinetic/energy, strange.

perhaps you need to hover over the death field ability?

 

i comment did not say anything about "all force attacks", perhaps this is a issue for you, but words like "all", and "every" have meanings, as well as the lack of those words. they make a difference.

 

for example:

  • ALL posts on the pvp forum are troll posts
  • posts on the pvp forum are troll posts

 

they carry different meanings.

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yup

 

perhaps you need to hover over the death field ability?

 

i comment did not say anything about "all force attacks", perhaps this is a issue for you, but words like "all", and "every" have meanings, as well as the lack of those words. they make a difference.

 

for example:

  • ALL posts on the pvp forum are troll posts
  • posts on the pvp forum are troll posts

 

they carry different meanings.

 

Then go back to your original message and tell me how much sense does it make?! Heavy armor is a huge survivability because a huge majority of the attacks is mitigated by armor

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Then go back to your original message and tell me how much sense does it make?! Heavy armor is a huge survivability because a huge majority of the attacks is mitigated by armor

it protects against 50% of the damage types.

 

i guess you're a "cup is half full" type of guy.

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it protects against 50% of the damage types.

 

i guess you're a "cup is half full" type of guy.

 

and those 50% of the damage types cover a huge majority of the abilities in the game, your post still makes no sense, I guess you're one of those who needs an op class to carry you

 

(edit: you also have to take into consideration in questions of survivability stuff like range, instant abilities, reduced active cooldown on your "crappy shield" which is actually extremely good)

Edited by Reveillere
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DPS VG/PT survivability is crap.

 

In a 1v1 situation (which I'm guessing most qq'ers on this thread are referring to in their OP claims) it may seem that way because let's face it, whoever kills the other guy faster wins, and there's no argument that PT/VG is tops in burst damage right now.

 

However, on my Assault VG, if I get focused by 2 or more competent players and I don't have a pocket healer, then I go down very very quickly. My watchman sentinel feels much more tanky in comparison, I can easily stall 2-3 times longer on my sentinel in order to wait for backup to arrive as needed.

 

Some people always look at class balance strictly from a 1v1 perspective.

Edited by kingrimlock
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DPS VG/PT survivability is crap.

 

In a 1v1 situation (which I'm guessing most qq'ers on this thread are referring to in their OP claims) it may seem that way because let's face it, whoever kills the other guy faster wins, and there's no argument that PT/VG is tops in burst damage right now.

 

However, on my Assault VG, if I get focused by 2 or more competent players and I don't have a pocket healer, then I go down very very quickly. My watchman sentinel feels much more tanky in comparison, I can easily stall 2-3 times longer on my sentinel in order to wait for backup to arrive as needed.

 

Some people always look at class balance strictly from a 1v1 perspective.

 

Exactly. I think alot of people need to understand that in almost every mmo, pvp isnt built around 1v1 but more around team play. But even then a Vanguard is far from the king of 1v1. Like I said try to 1v1 a marauder/shadow/operative and then you'll see what broken damage is. Anyway, Vanguard isnt getting changed folks so lets just stop it alrdy.

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Haha, OP is the same guy who was asking for advices because his class got nerfed and he will be re-rolling a Marauder. Think you are the last person on the Earth who should be talking about L2P issues but usually people like you use those phrases, anyway.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=398482

 

Hmm I dont get it. How does that thread have any relevance to this thread.

 

Actually never mind. I just found this gem.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=495870

 

Talk about l2p huh. :cool:

Edited by tehrealdealz
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Reveillere is correct in saying that most damage done, even by force users, is mitigated by Armor.

 

He's wrong though saying it's a big boost to survivability. If it was Commandos wouldn't be nearly as squishy and worthless in PVP as they are. It's cooldowns, escape tools, and tank stance (and preferably healers) that make a class survivable in PVP. Everything else is just window dressing sadly.

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The game isn't balanced around 1v1 that has been stated over 100 times by BioWare (from a 1v1 point of view I would even go as far as saying pyro powertech is underpowered, but that's not what we're discussing), and the damage output from a pyro powertech is too high compared to other classes because of 1. high crit chance 2. easy resource management 3. powerful dots 4. hard hitting abilities. A pyro powertech can replace and do a better job than any dps class in the game, together with marauder and sniper.

 

This is a great point. Of course VG and PT players want to claim that they are not op in anyway. However, it consistently blows my mind that a heavy armor class can have has a dps spec that produces some of the highest dps numbers in pvp, consistently. There is a reason why RWZs are filled with these pyro spec classes. Sure, the utility is lower, but that does not account for the incredibly easy dps capacity of the class. And, the survivability during direct combat is out of control.

 

I have played dps classes for almost 20 years now in MMORPGS, and VG and PT have been the absolute easiest to push insane DPS. It is laughable that anyone would argue differently, so L2P. That being said, I will still stick with my broken scrapper scoundrel because it is a consistent challenge to produce the dps I desire.

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and those 50% of the damage types cover a huge majority of the abilities in the game, your post still makes no sense, I guess you're one of those who needs an op class to carry you

 

(edit: you also have to take into consideration in questions of survivability stuff like range, instant abilities, reduced active cooldown on your "crappy shield" which is actually extremely good)

 

Yep, this link nicely demonstrates just how many attacks are mitigated by armor for those not sure

 

http://utils.lmstudio.ru/swtor/class-damage-types.html

 

Read the left column for classes and the Kinetic/Energy column for all those attacks (including "force attacks") and its quite clear that most "force attacks" are either kinetic or energy based and will be partially stopped by armor.

 

And if I recall correctly, "weapon attacks" (those in the second column) primarily translate into energy or kinetic, hence also get mitigated by armor. So, the majority of damage received is reduced by armor.

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flamnubs got their nerf reduction in range. bout time

 

welcome to the club.

 

now who's left?

 

Yep, this range reduction will certainly change the play style on my Vanguard a little. I am going to miss the standard opener from range especially when running in towards a node.

 

Does that now mean all 'melee' classes are now on a fairly equal footing with regards to having no DoT applicator or top of tree damage ability applicable from 30m range ?

 

Probably not but I need to read up more on that.

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@OP,

 

You are nuts. Vanguard/PT damage is extremely high (lol at your comparison to the other classes) and a decent chuck of it bypasses armor (internal/elemental). Can they be beaten 1v1? Sure, with skill, luck, cooldown advantage or some combination thereof.

 

But this game is not 1v1 and that is the major flaw in the OP. A Vanguard backed up by a decent healer is overpowered, especially in less coordinated pug matches.

 

We'll see if the nerfs bring you guys more in line.

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Yep, this range reduction will certainly change the play style on my Vanguard a little. I am going to miss the standard opener from range especially when running in towards a node.

 

Does that now mean all 'melee' classes are now on a fairly equal footing with regards to having no DoT applicator or top of tree damage ability applicable from 30m range ?

 

Probably not but I need to read up more on that.

 

Am I the only one who finds the linked page from this post funny because it lists Assault Plastique as an AoE? :rolleyes:

 

Yep, this range reduction will certainly change the play style on my Vanguard a little. I am going to miss the standard opener from range especially when running in towards a node.

 

Theagg, if you've ever experimented with Tactics the current test build for Assault will play very similarly. The benefit of Tactics, however, is Hold the Line.

Edited by DacRycar
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Am I the only one who finds the linked page from this post funny because it lists Assault Plastique as an AoE? :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Theagg, if you've ever experimented with Tactics the current test build for Assault will play very similarly. The benefit of Tactics, however, is Hold the Line.

 

Heh, on the AP being listed as an AoE, yes I noticed that. Must be a Russian thing then :)

 

On the latter, my original Vanguard spec was Tactics but fellow guildies 'persuaded' me to try out the Assault Spec :) (For its higher DPS and 'slow' ability). As such, I do miss Hold the Line but enjoy the slightly more versatile nature of Assault when it comes to kiting an opponent (High Impact Bolt's 10m range in the tree that benefits that most versus Stockstrike's closer range requirement in the Tactics tree which favors that ability.)

 

However, the energy usage management in Assault really sucks compared to that of the Tactics build.

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The thing is that the 1.4 changes don't really affect much. Instead of being able to do everything at 30m, you'll instead be able to do it at 10m Sure, you've gotta run into combat which puts you at a disadvantage of ranged attackers. But you've got a 30m pull which negates that disadvantage. At that point, you get to go back to the spam spam spam play style.

 

I swear, you'd think that the PT/Van community would stand up and ask for some variety in their play style instead of ************ about a slight gameplay change. You mash 4 offensive buttons plus a pull. One of those is on a 15s cool down which means you get a lot of basic attack and Ion/Flame Burst. Yee-f'ing-haw!!! Most of the bads don't even bother with Rocket Punch/Stock Strike and almost everyone ignores Unload/Full Auto. Its awful. And yet, some cretin decides to start a thread about how your class got nerfed. It boggles the mind.

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