So, one of the many reasons I went Empire was that I knew that the constant "oh, gee, you care about someone, HAVE SOME DS POINTS" was going to annoy the bejeebus out of me... but, as it turns out, I get the same treatment as a Sith?

 

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

Being a total unrepentant jerk to someone is A-OK.

Storming through the streets painting them red with the blood of your enemies, perfectly fine.

As a BH, shooting your way through a tribal village and walking off with a head as a trophy? Wonderful!

 

...but a G-rated reference to possibly enjoying the consensual company of someone of the opposite sex earns

DS points?

 

This puritanical nonsense doesn't belong on the Sith side of the line. Grumble.

 

(Note: Yes, I did. And they were my first DS points on this character.)

it makes perfect sense for jedi and sith. not so much for anyone else though

sith live through their passions, jedi try to see through them

 

basically if you want to lay everyone you can and get no darkside points i'd suggest rolling something other than a force user

So, one of the many reasons I went Empire was that I knew that the constant "oh, gee, you care about someone, HAVE SOME DS POINTS" was going to annoy the bejeebus out of me... but, as it turns out, I get the same treatment as a Sith?

 

 

So, in the SI quest "Manufacturing Miracles," the one and only neutral option is to tell this nice girl that you're sick of hearing her talk, while both DS options amount to "let's get to know each other."

 

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

Being a total unrepentant jerk to someone is A-OK.

Storming through the streets painting them red with the blood of your enemies, perfectly fine.

As a BH, shooting your way through a tribal village and walking off with a head as a trophy? Wonderful!

 

...but a G-rated reference to possibly enjoying the consensual company of someone of the opposite sex earns

150!

DS points?

 

This puritanical nonsense doesn't belong on the Sith side of the line. Grumble.

 

(Note: Yes, I did. And they were my first DS points on this character.)

 

Emotions = Darkside

 

You don't need emotions to be a jerk.

In the particular quest to which you're referring, you're really not showing genuine care for the young lady. You're using her for your own pleasure and edification, hence the darkside points. The neutral, or light side thing to do would really be to just let her be. I went down the darkside path with my inquisitor, had my way with her, and then down the story line, she tries to 'stay in contact' with you and your response choices are basically 'i'm washing my hair', 'it's not gonna happen' or 'go away'.

 

Clearly, she has fullfilled her role in your character's mind, and he has no more use for her. Again, clearly darkside.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Natarii

I can burn off those dark side points in one flashpoint.

 

This is a non-issue.

This isn't about metagaming the DS/LS points, it's about the story.

 

As for "you're just using her," that's really not how it's presented.

 

 

 

 

Finally... Well, there aren't all that many occasions to quote Van Halen, so I'll avail myself of this one- I ain't talkin' bout love.

I agree that the choices with which you're presented during conversation are a little bit vague. They seem innocent enough, but the dialog those choices actually generate are darker than what the choice implied. It's like that super charismatic guy in the movies who's basically just a playboy and tells the girls what they want to hear to get less dressed! Going through that story arc, it seemed to me that my character really could care less what she had to say, and just wanted his turn on the town bike!

Emotions = Darkside

More or less this.

 

Long story short, light side / dark side is not a morality scorecard.

 

Short story long, anything by Dickens.

The light side Jedi finds love opens you up to emotions that can lead to the Dark Side (aka Anakin Skywalker).

 

The dark side Sith finds love a sign of weakness. Both sides try to discourage it during training. As for non force users, I don't know how the game deals with it.

 

I'm not sure if I read that in game lore or on the Wookiepedia.

Thats also in Kotor. the two jedi love each other at the academy, and they end up running away and getting eaten by 2 tarentateks :3

I've been playing a LS IA.

 

All the conversation options tagged with 'flirt', including some obviously inappropriate ones, have not generated DS points for me.

 

Then again, if LS/DS were not about morality, then it makes little sense for non-force classes to gain LS/DS points. So I still see them as morality. Perhaps for force users, it's morality + a little something else?

Following up from previous comments, I've finished the chain now and it really doesn't seem like a case of manipulating her.

 

 

 

 

As for "emotion = dark, 'peace' = light," there are *plenty* of occasions throughout the game where you can express affection for people, do nice things, etc, without it being dark, while you can be casually, rationally cruel and destructive left, right, and sideways and gain DS points without ever raising your voice. So caring about people, being nice, forming attachments (Vette comes to mind), and the like is A-OK... until the belt buckle hits the floor?

As for "emotion = dark, 'peace' = light," there are *plenty* of occasions throughout the game where you can express affection for people, do nice things, etc, without it being dark, while you can be casually, rationally cruel and destructive left, right, and sideways and gain DS points without ever raising your voice. So caring about people, being nice, forming attachments (Vette comes to mind), and the like is A-OK... until the belt buckle hits the floor?

As with all choices: it depends on the circumstances.

 

It's possible that Bioware simply considered any casual sexual encounter to be submitting to passion (not just lust, but overwhelming emotion), whereas the aforementioned attachments involve a much more controlled understanding of emotion?

 

I haven't seen but a fraction of the options, so I can't say for sure, but it's possible?

I guess at the end of the day, there is no way to 'capture' all the back story and circumstance that would really be needed, to assess whether such a situation was morally good or bad.

 

The LS/DS scale is arbitrary and artificial, and we never get enough information about our characters, the other characters or circumstance.

 

That being said, I think most LS/DS options are stereotypical for anyone familiar with star wars lore. Like other than being marked out, I don't think any are very surprisingly (although some are debatable).

 

We're still a really long way from video games where we can actually make choices of morality and for the game engine to be 'smart' enough to capture that.

I guess at the end of the day, there is no way to 'capture' all the back story and circumstance that would really be needed, to assess whether such a situation was morally good or bad.

 

The LS/DS scale is arbitrary and artificial, and we never get enough information about our characters, the other characters or circumstance.

 

That being said, I think most LS/DS options are stereotypical for anyone familiar with star wars lore. Like other than being marked out, I don't think any are very surprisingly (although some are debatable).

 

We're still a really long way from video games where we can actually make choices of morality and for the game engine to be 'smart' enough to capture that.

 

Good Points;

 

Without starting an argument (discussing morals generally about as dangerous as stampeding across a live minefield) Bioware did a fair job of presenting a moral compass in line with Star Wars 'lore'. The difficulty is that three people picked at random will 'probably' have three drastically different ideals about morality, and one of them 'probably' will be mortally offended no matter what choice is made.

More Bioware having a poor understanding of Star Wars lore and the force....

 

WOooo.

 

Its sad how right the, psychotic pre-launch, Jedi Knight forum turned out.

Edited December 23, 2011 by LordOfTheDance

Good Points;

 

Without starting an argument (discussing morals generally about as dangerous as stampeding across a live minefield) Bioware did a fair job of presenting a moral compass in line with Star Wars 'lore'. The difficulty is that three people picked at random will 'probably' have three drastically different ideals about morality, and one of them 'probably' will be mortally offended no matter what choice is made.

 

But the light and dark side aren't 100% about morality, stereotypically good and evil, are they? They are just perceived as such. Jedis are technically the same as chinese warrior monks, who give up all earthly pleasures to gain better control over themselves and the force.

 

In starwars legacy comic, during the 'massacre at Ossus', Cade Skywalker used dark side power to heal his master, Wolf Sazen, from certain death (he had been skewered by Darth Nihl). Thats already pretty paradoxical if you look at it only from morality perspective. How can healing someone be wrong? It was wrong because he gave in to emotion. Cade did that many times over the course of the series.

 

ps. Sith are generally perceived as 'evil' because they emphasize strife, and 'survival of the fittest' attitude over Jedis preaching of peace. To Sith, peace is a lie (as the sith code says).

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength

Through strength, I gain power

Through power, I gain victory

Through victory, my chains are broken

 

ps. If it was simple to determine what is bad and what is good, it wouldn't nearly be as fun nor make as good a story.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Karkais

Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Attachments, they cause a fear of loss, and that can lead to the dark side, that is the story of the fall of Anakin Skywalker.

Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

 

I really like that quote from Obi Wan. He seems to be one of the few Jedi, who actually recognizes the relativity of the Jedi views on the Force and morality.

 

My main char is a Sith Sorcerer, because I like the fact, that they don't deny or try to rationalise their emotions. But I began to become a bit dissatisfied after I've figured out that they think that love leads to weakness. I was hoping, that they see some strength in love, even if it would have been through the possible dark emotions it can generate, like hate, jealousy etc.

I think it is partially a cultural thing.

 

Dark 1 for the Empire does not equal Dark 1 for the Republic (except in game mechanics).

 

The way I see it, the sith live with a different baseline of darkness than the jedi.

Just getting by in the Sith Empire gives you a few metaphorical darkside points or hardens you to it all... or both.

 

Emotions, however, is where they seem to line up, at least functionally.

Edited December 23, 2011 by CaptainMax