You're kidding right?

No, not kidding. The funny thing is that everyone seems to think that stat priority drastically changed since 2.0 landed and there is some new way to gear your tank. Yes there was an overhaul on the effectiveness of shield and absorb do to shields working on F/T attacks, but that should not change how one gears their class. Guardians are still stacking defense, VG's are still stacking sheild/absorb, Slingers stack some crit, sentinels stack no crit (in most cases) and power is king for dps, etc. Why would stat priority remain the same for all these classes, yet change drastically for shadow/sin? Especially knowing BW is slow when it comes to class changes. Does everyone really think they would re-work the way sin tanking works? Maybe the class is not the problem, it's the gear. Defense proc was never BIS for sins pre 2.0 so why now? There is a reason BW added some passive def rating to that relic and that's because it sucks. Also sin tanks get an amazing return on shield chance, so why would anyone stop at a 750 rating? Why is everyone crying about getting hit with unshielded attacks and then not stacking shield augments or relics? Funny really

No, not kidding. The funny thing is that everyone seems to think that stat priority drastically changed since 2.0 landed and there is some new way to gear your tank. Yes there was an overhaul on the effectiveness of shield and absorb do to shields working on F/T attacks, but that should not change how one gears their class. Guardians are still stacking defense, VG's are still stacking sheild/absorb, Slingers stack some crit, sentinels stack no crit (in most cases) and power is king for dps, etc. Why would stat priority remain the same for all these classes, yet change drastically for shadow/sin? Especially knowing BW is slow when it comes to class changes. Does everyone really think they would re-work the way sin tanking works? Maybe the class is not the problem, it's the gear. Defense proc was never BIS for sins pre 2.0 so why now? There is a reason BW added some passive def rating to that relic and that's because it sucks. Also sin tanks get an amazing return on shield chance, so why would anyone stop at a 750 rating? Why is everyone crying about getting hit with unshielded attacks and then not stacking shield augments or relics? Funny really

No really, you have to be kidding. Just about every statement in that wall of garbage was either a misrepresentation, tangential to the conversation, or outright wrong.

Where is Leafy Bug's post? I saw it, went to work, then it was gone.

He apparently still believes that the way to go about this is to nerf the Guardian instead of buffing the shadow. They still need to buff the Shadow, regardless of the slight nerf to terminate the way I see it.

I'd like all the tanks to be on the Guardian's level, to be honest, rather than on the Shadow's.

I'd like all the tanks to be on the Guardian's level, to be honest, rather than on the Shadow's.

I'd settle for them all just being on the same level. Whether it be the shadow's level, the guardian's level, or the vanguard's level, just make them closer in terms of actual tanking viability, but with different play styles and ways to achieve that similar viability.

For two months we have asked for tank balancing and not nerfs. I think the shadow community is the most understanding and we do not condone how BioWare does class balancing by taking from one class and giving to another. It took over a month to get a reply in our forums form the community manager and not Jesse Sky. Which is a bit ironic because Jesse Sky felt the need to reply, instead of Eric, in the 'separate HM/NiM mode lockouts' thread. We have asked nicely, we are still asking nicely but this time using a language BioWare speaks : nerfing one class at the expense of the weaker. Having said that, I will promote, from this day forth, Guardian Tank nerfs and if you think I am a fanboi who hates the game and cries for nerfs all the time, check my post history for the past months and you will see that all my posts say ' guardians should not be nerfed, they are okay'.

 

 

I have changed my tune as this is the method which gives results. Shadows were nerfed all the time due to the daily cries in the PVP section. The majority cried nerfs and the minority cried balancing. The majority won so we are taking a page out of that book and we support Nerfs. So having said that please find below :

 

 

1. Saber reflect is an OP skill that is not bugged like resilience. Saber reflect does not have the 200% and 5% chance to be hit. Saber reflect works all the time and is an OP skill favoured by Jesse Sky. Look at the content design leaning towards saber reflect and completely ignoring resilience. Either both work or none at all, that is balancing. We are talking about nerfs here so increase the cooldown on it, like you did with resilience when you re-did the skill tree.

 

 

2. Guardian defensive cooldowns are OP. Guardians are the only tanks that have a 100% survival chance at Sunder in HM taking two 'The End' in a row. The other tanks cannot do this and another point in favoritism. Increase the coodldown of saberward as it was pre- 2.0.

 

 

3. Guardian mean mitigation profile is poor, however, it has perfect spike mitigation profile. Drop the spike mitigation profile and improve the mean mitigation profile. This brings the tanks closer in terms of spike damage and increase the chance of the guardian almost dying in cases where other tanks do and the guardian facerolls.

 

 

4. A poorly geared Guardian is able to clear SV/TFB HM 8 man 16 man without any issues. The vanguard follows closely but the shadow needs to be BIS and played at a very high skill cap to actually stay alive. This discrepancy should not exist, nerf is needed to bring the tank in line with the others.

First off i'd like to point out your beginning statement where you said you're asking for class re-balancing, and not nerfing. When the title of this post is asking for a nerf to Guardian tanks. Second, how about you stick to the first part of the statement. I understand your frustration. I play all three tanks on both sides, and I agree assassin/shadow tanks need a little love. Most content has been cleared. Including nightmare modes with an assassin/shadow tank. Does it take a lot more work? Yes, of course it does. Asssassins/Shadows had it pretty easy when the game first came out up until 2.0. Guardians/Juggernauts had to work just as hard as you're having to work right now pre-2.0, and I don't care what anyone's argument is. It's a well-known fact that juggernauts/guardians had to really try hard to get guilds to have them tank for end-game content. So excuse me if I feel that when an assassin/shadow tank is asking for guardians/juggernauts to be nerfed that I run for a barrel to gather up the tears so I may drink them later on. I distinctly remember when I mainly played my Juggernaut pre-2.0 that there were a few tweaks here and there that were asked for, but Juggernauts didn't go on to the assassin/shadow forums asking for them to be nerfed. Granted, it was mainly other classes asking for nerfs because they were pretty amazing in PvP. That is besides the point though. Again, I understand your frustration. However, to ask for a nerf against a tank class that really needed some loving is a bit over the top when it's just assassins/shadows that need to be fixed.

Asssassins/Shadows had it pretty easy when the game first came out up until 2.0.

 

Guardians/Juggernauts had to work just as hard as you're having to work right now pre-2.0, and I don't care what anyone's argument is. It's a well-known fact that juggernauts/guardians had to really try hard to get guilds to have them tank for end-game content.

 

So excuse me if I feel that when an assassin/shadow tank is asking for guardians/juggernauts to be nerfed that I run for a barrel to gather up the tears so I may drink them later on.

Preach it. +1 for truth.

Asssassins/Shadows had it pretty easy when the game first came out up until 2.0. Guardians/Juggernauts had to work just as hard as you're having to work right now pre-2.0, and I don't care what anyone's argument is. It's a well-known fact that juggernauts/guardians had to really try hard to get guilds to have them tank for end-game content. So excuse me if I feel that when an assassin/shadow tank is asking for guardians/juggernauts to be nerfed that I run for a barrel to gather up the tears so I may drink them later on.

And then I read something like this and think. Maybe we should actually nerf guardians. Because the fact that BW was horrible at class balance then justifies them somehow for being bad at class balance now? The fact is that both states are intolerable.

And then I read something like this and think. Maybe we should actually nerf guardians. Because the fact that BW was horrible at class balance then justifies them somehow for being bad at class balance now? The fact is that both states are intolerable.

And then I read something like this and think. Maybe we should just focus on fixing assassins and shadows rather than nerfing something that isn't broken.

And then I read something like this and think. Maybe we should just focus on fixing assassins and shadows rather than nerfing something that isn't broken.

And then I read this and think that that has already been tried before, constructively, to no fruition, so we make threads crying for nerfs, which BW actually tends to listen to.

Well, why LOS tricks then if you can simply stealth out?

I don't know if anybody answered you, but stealth isn't up again in time for the second heat beam, else you could. You have to LOS one of them.

Hopefully this weeks Q and A session gets Jugg tanks nerfed

I'd much rather my Assassin tank become more viable than my Guardian become less viable thanks. I like Kitru's 4-5% DR attacked to Force Breach/Discharge for 15secs idea, and it seems very numerically sound.

Hopefully this weeks Q and A session gets Jugg tanks nerfed

Misery loves company, lol

Misery loves company, lol

The whole idea of this thread is that since Bioware doesn't listen or respond to the large amount of constructive criticism posted about shadows, but they do listen to the pvp players crying for sin nerfs in tank spec, that us crying about jugg tanks needing nerfs would be seen as more rational to them then the actual rational approach.

Constructive criticism = nothing

Crying for nerfs = nerfs given with amazing imprecision

Why would the former situation even be attempted if it does not ever pan out in a decent fashion

Not to mention the large buff juggs got when 2.0 came out, mainly including yet another OP cooldown, while shadows got a large nerf in part due to changing DR curves and getting a ****** phase walk ability

The whole idea of this thread is that since Bioware doesn't listen or respond to the large amount of constructive criticism posted about shadows, but they do listen to the pvp players crying for sin nerfs in tank spec, that us crying about jugg tanks needing nerfs would be seen as more rational to them then the actual rational approach.

 

Constructive criticism = nothing

Crying for nerfs = nerfs given with amazing imprecision

 

Why would the former situation even be attempted if it does not ever pan out in a decent fashion

 

Not to mention the large buff juggs got when 2.0 came out, mainly including yet another OP cooldown, while shadows got a large nerf in part due to changing DR curves and getting a ****** phase walk ability

Exactly. So an amazingly imprecise nerf to guardian/juggs would bring nothing to shadow/sins. Except some of them will feel better knowing that other class got nerfed.

Exactly. So an amazingly imprecise nerf to guardian/juggs would bring nothing to shadow/sins. Except some of them will feel better knowing that other class got nerfed.

Pretty much. That's why I feel such disdain towards this sort of negativity.

Pretty much. That's why I feel such disdain towards this sort of negativity.

In that case lets let this thread die and have more productive threads rise to the top!.

Edit : To ArchangelLBC: I made sure that when I replied to this thread it was already on the very top. To make sure I was not the cause of bumping it when making said comment .

In that case lets let this thread die and have more productive threads rise to the top!

I was trying, but you idiots keep bumping it =P

Exactly. So an amazingly imprecise nerf to guardian/juggs would bring nothing to shadow/sins. Except some of them will feel better knowing that other class got nerfed.

I guess you don't realize that an imprecise nerf started all this, back in 1.7 i think, when the tank tree was nerfed due to guys using dps armor on tankassins to great effect. Instead of nerfing damage, they nerfed survivability, screwing us over for end game tanking down the line.

My point through all of the previous post was that BW doesn't respond to creative suggestions to fix class issues, and instead they just swing the nerf bat, which buff the other two classes at the same time. Don't be mad at these threads, be mad at BW for not using the mounds of data collected regarding shadow tank spikiness to bring the classes in line with each other.

I am understanding that a new patch is coming and it consist of ending up nerfing the guardian tank even more than it always is we that play this class has been putting up with this for a long time:mad:

and still swtor seems to have no clue.. what is sucks and has suck every since is that a shadow can out tank a guardian which to me is a load of crap I have never care for the way this was done and I never will I tell ya swtor being your developers don't seem to understand jedi knights and even from the beginning of this game you have nerf guardians

so after playing swotor I find myself finally disappointed enough to say I game play time is about up if you do nerf the guardian in any way I shall be done of course I imagine that you don't really care what a paying customer wants and don't mind if some leave your game.. why am I wasting my time playing and paying for a game that is nerf and as one may say lacks balance

I am understanding that a new patch is coming and it consist of ending up nerfing the guardian tank even more than it always is we that play this class has been putting up with this for a long time:mad:

and still swtor seems to have no clue.. what is sucks and has suck every since is that a shadow can out tank a guardian which to me is a load of crap I have never care for the way this was done and I never will I tell ya swtor being your developers don't seem to understand jedi knights and even from the beginning of this game you have nerf guardians

so after playing swotor I find myself finally disappointed enough to say I game play time is about up if you do nerf the guardian in any way I shall be done of course I imagine that you don't really care what a paying customer wants and don't mind if some leave your game.. why am I wasting my time playing and paying for a game that is nerf and as one may say lacks balance

,,,,,,,,,,............!!!!??? <- here have some of my punctuation, feel free to use it as you please.

And how are guardians being nerfed again?

Holy Mother of Necro.

And Guardian Tanks are being buffed, not nerfed.

A CD that is almost a full heal if used right? Yes, thank you..

I am understanding that a new patch is coming and it consist of ending up nerfing the guardian tank even more than it always is we that play this class has been putting up with this for a long time:mad:

and still swtor seems to have no clue.. what is sucks and has suck every since is that a shadow can out tank a guardian which to me is a load of crap I have never care for the way this was done and I never will I tell ya swtor being your developers don't seem to understand jedi knights and even from the beginning of this game you have nerf guardians

so after playing swotor I find myself finally disappointed enough to say I game play time is about up if you do nerf the guardian in any way I shall be done of course I imagine that you don't really care what a paying customer wants and don't mind if some leave your game.. why am I wasting my time playing and paying for a game that is nerf and as one may say lacks balance

Beyond the fact that this post is so badly written I can barely make sense of it, the content I can identify is just incorrect.

First off the patch isn't nerfing Juggernaut/Guardian tanks. It's buffing them. Secondly, the Assassin doesn't really out tank the Guardian / Juggernaut. It's better for some situations and worse for others. This is the case with all tank classes. And if you actually knew anything about the three tank classes and how they work in actual operations you would know that they are fairly well balanced. (More on this later.)

As for your third point, you couldn't be further off base. BioWare does listen to what their paying customers and others want. The problem is that few people actually understand what's really going on and ask for things that will make the game worse. So BioWare takes action to please the masses that are QQ'ing about this or that. So they swing the nerf bat wildly and buff what doesn't need to be buffed. Most nerfs or buffs tend to address things BAD players ***** about. That's why Sorcs are getting unnecessarily buffed in 2.7, Operatives, Assassin's, Marauders and Juggernauts are getting nerfed. So thanks to BAD players ************ we now have an AoE damage spec in PvP getting nerfed into a mediocre single target spec. This is the kind of logic that results from BioWare listening to their customers and ultimately a great example of what happens when they do. Is this really the kind of stupid **** you want BioWare to do to all the classes? I hope not.

So, BioWare does listen. Sometimes that's the problem. What they need to do often times is stick to their guns and STOP changing what doesn't need changing.

As for the tank classes, an Assassin only "out tanks" Guardian's and Juggernaut's on group mob pulls. That's about it. This is due to better threat generation. But like everything else with tanks this is situational. If Saber Reflect is applicable to the trash pull the Juggernaut and Guardian have the best AoE threat generation. Assassin's are spiky with regard to damage profiles and require a high level of skill to play well as their rotation makes up allot of their mitigation. That is certain abilities add mitigation to their stats which are pretty much the worst in base form.

Juggernaut's and Guardian's have very high base mitigation stats and only one active ability that buffs their mitigation. Assassin's have to work hard to stay alive and Juggernauts and Guardians need to work hard to hold threat. In contrast a Powertech has high base mitigation and their abilities boost that mitigation even further. Unfortunately they don't have any damage stopping abilities like Saber Reflect or Force Shroud and virtually no cool downs to speak of. So when they are spiked hard and end up low on health (which is comparatively rare) the Powertech and Vanguard ends up in a dangerous situation as they just don't have the cooldowns to manage a low health condition for very long. The trade off is that their rotations are incredibly forgiving and their health loss in a fight is usually nice and smooth. They do not excel or suck at threat generation and fall exactly in the middle of the road compared to the other two tanks.

So what we have are three very different tank classes with different play styles each with their own situational advantages and disadvantages. All three are viable for all current content in the game. Hopefully BioWare learns their lesson and doesn't do what they did to Assassin's and Shadows for any tank class when the next round of NiM content arrives.

A bad Guardian/Juggernaut can't hold agro, a bad Vanguard/Powertech will keep on trucking and a bad Shadow/Assassin will simply die.

Beyond the fact that this post is so badly written I can barely make sense of it, the content I can identify is just incorrect.

 

First off the patch isn't nerfing Juggernaut/Guardian tanks. It's buffing them. Secondly, the Assassin doesn't really out tank the Guardian / Juggernaut. It's better for some situations and worse for others. This is the case with all tank classes. And if you actually knew anything about the three tank classes and how they work in actual operations you would know that they are fairly well balanced. (More on this later.)

 

As for your third point, you couldn't be further off base. BioWare does listen to what their paying customers and others want. The problem is that few people actually understand what's really going on and ask for things that will make the game worse. So BioWare takes action to please the masses that are QQ'ing about this or that. So they swing the nerf bat wildly and buff what doesn't need to be buffed. Most nerfs or buffs tend to address things BAD players ***** about. That's why Sorcs are getting unnecessarily buffed in 2.7, Operatives, Assassin's, Marauders and Juggernauts are getting nerfed. So thanks to BAD players ************ we now have an AoE damage spec in PvP getting nerfed into a mediocre single target spec. This is the kind of logic that results from BioWare listening to their customers and ultimately a great example of what happens when they do. Is this really the kind of stupid **** you want BioWare to do to all the classes? I hope not.

 

So, BioWare does listen. Sometimes that's the problem. What they need to do often times is stick to their guns and STOP changing what doesn't need changing.

 

As for the tank classes, an Assassin only "out tanks" Guardian's and Juggernaut's on group mob pulls. That's about it. This is due to better threat generation. But like everything else with tanks this is situational. If Saber Reflect is applicable to the trash pull the Juggernaut and Guardian have the best AoE threat generation. Assassin's are spiky with regard to damage profiles and require a high level of skill to play well as their rotation makes up allot of their mitigation. That is certain abilities add mitigation to their stats which are pretty much the worst in base form.

 

Juggernaut's and Guardian's have very high base mitigation stats and only one active ability that buffs their mitigation. Assassin's have to work hard to stay alive and Juggernauts and Guardians need to work hard to hold threat. In contrast a Powertech has high base mitigation and their abilities boost that mitigation even further. Unfortunately they don't have any damage stopping abilities like Saber Reflect or Force Shroud and virtually no cool downs to speak of. So when they are spiked hard and end up low on health (which is comparatively rare) the Powertech and Vanguard ends up in a dangerous situation as they just don't have the cooldowns to manage a low health condition for very long. The trade off is that their rotations are incredibly forgiving and their health loss in a fight is usually nice and smooth. They do not excel or suck at threat generation and fall exactly in the middle of the road compared to the other two tanks.

 

So what we have are three very different tank classes with different play styles each with their own situational advantages and disadvantages. All three are viable for all current content in the game. Hopefully BioWare learns their lesson and doesn't do what they did to Assassin's and Shadows for any tank class when the next round of NiM content arrives.

 

A bad Guardian/Juggernaut can't hold agro, a bad Vanguard/Powertech will keep on trucking and a bad Shadow/Assassin will simply die.

<3 thank you