Hey Y'all,

I have a 50 geared Merc Heals on the Bastion, but I want to make a republic healer and I have been wondering what y'all prefer for heals and/or what class seems to be the best at PvP Heals (Commando, Sage, Or Scoundrel).

Please give advice and reasoning.... No arguments y'all and please no trolling.

All The Best,

Krieger

what class seems to be the best at PvP Heals (Commando, Sage, Or Scoundrel).

Scoundrel, without a doubt: the best mobility (HoTs, EMP, Kolto Cloud), the best utility (stealth is amazing), and most useful survivability CDs (Defense Screen and Dodge might not seem like much, but they're better than what Commandos and Sages get).

Scoundrels are a solid healign class, but i dont nessicarily agree with everything Kitru has said above. It's my main, and i love it, BUT a sage/sorc healer is just as viable. It brings with it more utility to the team, and they are both capable of the same raw healing numbers.

Basically, either of the two classes you don't have now are an acceptable choice by most. You will find that most RWZ teams run with one of each.

 

Basically, either of the two classes you don't have now are an acceptable choice by most. You will find that most RWZ teams run with one of each.

Would you say that Merc/Mando heals are not viable in RWZ and PVP?

Merc heals are definitely viable. (I'd urge you not to play commando, though, as it's been shown that energy management for commandos is significantly -- not much, but enough that you feel it -- less flexible.)

It really depends on your play style, Kitru's on the money when he mentions scoundrel defensive cooldowns.

I play all three classes in PvP. All are viable and can be very successful.

Scoundrel: Far and away some of the best survivability tools and defensive cooldowns. You can add a lot to a WZ in addition to healing. Stealth, even as a healer, is extremely useful.

Sage: Full heal-spec'd sages are a rarity these days, in favor of the bubble-stun spec. Personally, I find the spec incredibly boring to play, but it's a huge benefit to the team that has one. Full heals is probably not a good idea. You'll find yourself doing the pillar dance all night.

Commando (but really mercenary): High survivability. Your tank will thank you for having reasonable mitigation before guard damage. One of the best AoE heals in the game (ignore the haters) and a really, really nice passive heal. The class is more or less designed to be stunned, focused, and stay alive.

Sage: Full heal-spec'd sages are a rarity these days, in favor of the bubble-stun spec. Personally, I find the spec incredibly boring to play, but it's a huge benefit to the team that has one. Full heals is probably not a good idea. You'll find yourself doing the pillar dance all night.

Actually, the biggest problem with full heal spec Sages is that Salvation is such a massive liability in PvP. The prevalence of high AoE damage burst specs (re: Focus/Rage Knights/Warriors) means that pretty much any time Salvation would be useful, you're really just grouping your buddies up to eat massive AoE damage. It doesn't help that Sages have the worst damage reduction of the healers, no survivability CDs, and the worst mobile healing (which is a major problem when you consider how their only real method of not getting locked down and demolished is to run away).

Commando (but really mercenary): High survivability. Your tank will thank you for having reasonable mitigation before guard damage. One of the best AoE heals in the game (ignore the haters) and a really, really nice passive heal. The class is more or less designed to be stunned, focused, and stay alive.

The high survivability you talk about is actually a good deal less than you think. Heavy armor equates to roughly 30% K/E DR, medium to 25%, and light to 20%. Real survivability in PvP is accomplished through survivability CDs and the ability to disengage: Reactive Shield is one of the worst survivability CDs in the game (though it's still better than nothing, which means that, yes, they are hardier than Sages), but Comm/Mercs have no real ability to disengage from a fight, which makes them *really* easy to kill. Kolto Bomb is decent in PvP, but it's still nothing compared to Kolto Cloud and scattered SRM.

It's important to mention that Guard doesn't care about what your mitigation is. The damage is split in two *before* any sources of mitigation occur (including Defense and Resistance, so a tank can be hit by an attack that the guarded target dodges) so a tank is going to not more damage when Guarding a Sage than when Guarding a Commando. Functionally, Guard splits any incoming attack into two separate attacks with base damage equal to half of what it would normally deal, one of the Guarder and one on the Guardee, which are then resolved in the appropriate way (M/R attacks go through Defense then Shield/Crit then pass through DR; F/T attacks go through Resistance then Crit then pass through DR).

It's for good reason that Scoundrels are pretty much always considered the best outright PvP healers: they're the hardest to kill (excellent CDs, excellent ability to disengage), bring great utility (stealth, CC, stuns), and have the best sustainable and hardest to lock down heals. A Commando or a Sage could put out similar numbers, but they can't do it while moving and being beaten on.

I kinda disagree with Kitru, too. While the Operative certainly has some nice cooldowns, they have a rather long cooldown. I actually think my Sorc is much better at staying alive due to rooting knockback, stun-bubble and of course the greatest of it all: Fadeout (gotta love it when smashers jump you). All 3 are on a much shorter cooldown then the Ops defensive skills. And yes, I'm putting out the same numbers of heal with my Sorc as with my Ops.

Haven't played my Merc in PvP much, but I can see its advantages, too. Will probably try it, once they nerv stun-bubble.

I kinda disagree with Kitru, too.

You'll notice I specifically mentioned that I was referring to full Seer. Bubble-stun is a different beast altogether and makes up for the lack of mobile and AoE healing with substantially better utility. Egress/Fadeout and Force Wave/Overload applying an immob give you a couple of excellent tools for disengaging, and the bubble stun is just amazing.

The high survivability you talk about is actually a good deal less than you think. Heavy armor equates to roughly 30% K/E DR, medium to 25%, and light to 20%. Real survivability in PvP is accomplished through survivability CDs and the ability to disengage: Reactive Shield is one of the worst survivability CDs in the game (though it's still better than nothing, which means that, yes, they are hardier than Sages), but Comm/Mercs have no real ability to disengage from a fight, which makes them *really* easy to kill. Kolto Bomb is decent in PvP, but it's still nothing compared to Kolto Cloud and scattered SRM.

I agree but also disagree with this summary of Commando heals in PvP. Trust me when I say, the damage reduction is nice from heavy armor, especially since we can buff it over 40% with Advanced Medical Probe (if talented in Armor Screen) and Charged Barrier (from a Supercharged Kolto Bomb). I'd rather eat a 5.5k smash than a 7k smash any day as a healer any day of the week. And of course, both of those aforementioned buffs are great for tanks/those in heavy armor.

My biggest disagreement with you is on Reactive Shield. 25% damage redux for 12 seconds (can be up to 18 seconds with set bonuses), +20% healing received (if talented) in combination with all other healing received buffs, and interrupt immunity isn't something to be scoffed at. I'd actually say its one of the best defensive cooldowns amongst the healers. Having full resolve and/or an Expertise buff while the shield is up should make you damn near immortal for the duration of the shield.

With that said, we don't have a disengage and that does make things much more complicated (read: you must tank your way through it). Also as you mention, the spec really strains to accomplish group healing. It's doable, but isn't nearly as efficient as Sage or Scoundrel. I wouldn't discount Kolto Bomb so easily, though. While it's numbers won't make you King of the Scoreboard, there is a lot of versatility to it (it should also be your most used heal).

Actually, the biggest problem with full heal spec Sages is that Salvation is such a massive liability in PvP. The prevalence of high AoE damage burst specs (re: Focus/Rage Knights/Warriors) means that pretty much any time Salvation would be useful, you're really just grouping your buddies up to eat massive AoE damage. It doesn't help that Sages have the worst damage reduction of the healers, no survivability CDs, and the worst mobile healing (which is a major problem when you consider how their only real method of not getting locked down and demolished is to run away).

I agree with most of this, you're right on. I expect you mean worst instant healing, when you say mobile healing. The best sorcerers tend to be insanely mobile (between passive speed increase due to the bubble and low cool down force speed). Combined with semi-constant blinds and an AoE KB that roots...the majority of sorcerer survivability comes from controlling where your opponents are in relation to you. Honestly, I think you're giving sorcerers a bad rap on instant healing while on the move. Bubble, so long as we're willing to call that a heal, is a very potent instant ability.

It's true that much of the sorcerer's repertoire is hard cast or channeled, but they aren't nearly as lacking in the instant/mobile department as they might seem.

The high survivability you talk about is actually a good deal less than you think. Heavy armor equates to roughly 30% K/E DR, medium to 25%, and light to 20%. Real survivability in PvP is accomplished through survivability CDs and the ability to disengage: Reactive Shield is one of the worst survivability CDs in the game (though it's still better than nothing, which means that, yes, they are hardier than Sages), but Comm/Mercs have no real ability to disengage from a fight, which makes them *really* easy to kill. Kolto Bomb is decent in PvP, but it's still nothing compared to Kolto Cloud and scattered SRM.

Reactive shield, in terms of actual incoming damage reduction is probably the single best CD available to any of the healing classes. Evasion is great for avoiding a ravage or removing especially deadly DoTs (pre-cull, for example), and shield probe is mostly worthless outside the nice healing buff you might choose to spec into. Under focus fire, it's not going to last long enough to really be noticed.

Its cooldown is quite low, the DR is post-mitigation, and the ability to go totally uninterruptable is friggin' fantastic. The nature of the CD forces a certain kind of playstyle which is very unlike the operative/scoundrel, but I think this is a very powerful cool down.

In addition, Kolto Shell really shines in a PvP environment where stuns are the norm.

As far as DR from armor is concerned, those are the right numbers. I was going to argue that passive resistances for the merc are higher, but apparently they aren't. (doh.) 5 and 10% reduction would matter if it wasn't armor (which most things in PvP avoid anyhow). Darn.

It's important to mention that Guard doesn't care about what your mitigation is. The damage is split in two *before* any sources of mitigation occur (including Defense and Resistance, so a tank can be hit by an attack that the guarded target dodges) so a tank is going to not more damage when Guarding a Sage than when Guarding a Commando. Functionally, Guard splits any incoming attack into two separate attacks with base damage equal to half of what it would normally deal, one of the Guarder and one on the Guardee, which are then resolved in the appropriate way (M/R attacks go through Defense then Shield/Crit then pass through DR; F/T attacks go through Resistance then Crit then pass through DR).

I'm not sure you're right about guard mechanics. (Actually, it's more than I hope you're not right and suspect you are.)

I'd understood that when guard is active it adds a 5% damage reduction to the affected player and transfers 50% of the damage that player receives to the tank as unmitigated damage, completely bypassing the tank's shield/defense mechanics. My understanding was that attacks went through mitigation on the target's part -up to passive resistance- before the attack was divided. It doesn't seem mechanically possible to divide the attack pre-mitigation.

When I receive damage via guard on my tank, my combat logs aren't showing any attempt at active mitigation (dodging, shielding, etc.). By the same token, I suspect/hope that I'm only taking damage that's actually going through to my guarded target. If it's the case that I'm taking damage that my guarded target is dodging, that seems...unbelievably weird.

It's for good reason that Scoundrels are pretty much always considered the best outright PvP healers: they're the hardest to kill (excellent CDs, excellent ability to disengage), bring great utility (stealth, CC, stuns), and have the best sustainable and hardest to lock down heals. A Commando or a Sage could put out similar numbers, but they can't do it while moving and being beaten on.

As someone who mains an operative, I definitely agree with this. The playstyles between the three are completely different: I definitely feel like I can facetank much more successfully on my lesser-geared mercenary than I can on my operative (the combination of long duration CDs and passive self-healing might be the trick). My operative is constantly disengaging and moving, focused on instant heals, while the mercenary feels somewhat more jerky (move while instant heals are up, pause for a few GCDs to hard cast, move for instant heals, etc.). I think you're wrong that a properly played sage is less able to disengage, although I definitely agree that the commando is lacking there.

I'm not sure you're right about guard mechanics. (Actually, it's more than I hope you're not right and suspect you are.)

There was a thread a 1-2 months back about someone that finally went and did a reasonably comprehensive experiment to determine exactly what Guard does. The poster found that it was the base damage that was separated (since the two took different amounts of damage; the poster also "undid" the math and found that it only added up when you split the damage of the incoming attack into 2 separate attack "packets" with 50% of the baseline damage) and that attack type was maintained such as I explained before (the Guarding tank had 3 distinct ranges of incoming damage for the M/R attacks: more than normal for a crit, normal for a hit, and substantially less than normal for a shield). I believe that the poster also mentioned that the logs never mentioned that the redirected damage was the source of a relevant attack or not and that the only way to suss out the Guard/crit/hit was to look at the listed damage and dodges/resists had to be seen by the disparity in number of times damage was taken (essentially, Guard just says "damage taken" and doesn't even say anything when the attack is dodged by the tank).

I'd understood that when guard is active it adds a 5% damage reduction to the affected player

There's something that a lot of people don't realize about Guard and that the 5% DR isn't additive DR (meaning it's added to an existing number like your K/E and I/E DR) and is instead mutliplicative DR (meaning that you simply multiply what you would have taken if Guard were not present by .95 in order to determine how much you actually take). As such, the 5% is really *really* hard to actually notice. 5% additive is a *lot*; 5% multiplicative is... somewhat less so.

I think you're wrong that a properly played sage is less able to disengage, although I definitely agree that the commando is lacking there.

It helps that Scoundrels have a hard disengage in the form of Disappearing Act, which Sages do not have. Sages have excellent mobility (they've still got the worst mobile healing imo, thanks to the bubble lockout) and control, but it's not the same as the ability to disengage: after you use Force Speed or Force Wave, melee characters can still use their gap closers on you (I always laugh when a Sorc attempts to gank me in world PvP, proceeds to get his face trod in, and then attempts to flee only to get locked down by my using Force Speed, Force Pull, stuns, etc.) so it's not as if you're really able to reliably guarantee a successful disengagement. If you have someone else playing interference, you can often manage to get away with it, but most people can do so if they have a buddy playing interference regardless of class.

There was a thread a 1-2 months back about someone that finally went and did a reasonably comprehensive experiment to determine exactly what Guard does. The poster found that it was the base damage that was separated (since the two took different amounts of damage; the poster also "undid" the math and found that it only added up when you split the damage of the incoming attack into 2 separate attack "packets" with 50% of the baseline damage) and that attack type was maintained such as I explained before (the Guarding tank had 3 distinct ranges of incoming damage for the M/R attacks: more than normal for a crit, normal for a hit, and substantially less than normal for a shield). I believe that the poster also mentioned that the logs never mentioned that the redirected damage was the source of a relevant attack or not and that the only way to suss out the Guard/crit/hit was to look at the listed damage and dodges/resists had to be seen by the disparity in number of times damage was taken (essentially, Guard just says "damage taken" and doesn't even say anything when the attack is dodged by the tank).

That...is the dumbest way they could've set up those mechanics. Grar.

That...is the dumbest way they could've set up those mechanics. Grar.

It actually makes a lot of sense, imo, since it allows a tank to Guard a target, shunting damage off of their ally without rendering their tank stats meaningless. The problem, as I see it, is actually in the programmatic complexity of doing such (my guess would be that it is accomplished by applying 50% outright DR to the Guarded target and Guard causing the Guarded player to clone all attacks and direct them at the Guarding tank since Guard damage is considered damage from a player). It's an excellent execution, imo, if a bit strange for most players to cogitate, but it makes the most sense from an applicable/balance standpoint.

Satedbuffalo,

It was me who began the post on PvP Guard damage mitagation a month or so back, and some wonderful people did tests of their own. Go look it up in the tanking forums section, its a good read. IIRC, the multiplicative thing your going on about is wrong. Their results proved you take 5% off the initial raw damage dealt, then split it into 2 even parts, the target deals with 1 part, the tank the other. All tank stats including defense/shield/abosrb as well as mitigation will reduce tank damage.

To OP:

Comm/Merc heals can be viable for most PvP situations if you are a great player, but due to their complete lack of mobility (both in and out of healing) and lack of utility, are not viable for RWZ at this time. It is a rarity that you ever see one in RWZ. I can't remember it happening to me in a while.

People can choose to ignore skill trees and things when they say one is a better healer than the other. Thats fine. The fact remains, almost every RWZ team i have ran, played in, or watched play has included 1 sage and 1 scoundrel for heals. They are both completely viable, and both viewed as nessecary, especially the sage with bubble stuns in the current metagame. (And lets face it, the metagame here changes extremely slowly, we aren't expecting any changes for months until the expansion.)

Also, i will point you to the Highest PvP records thread, where currently a Sage/Sorc holds the record No.1 highest HPS in game.

Good advice and thanks for the thoughts.

I run usually 450-600k Heals on my merc, and do a pretty good job with a scoundrel by my side. So i feel like they are just as viable in PVP