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How much Accuracy are u loading for a Sin Tank


floriwie

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If nothing has changed since I was last on I think 110% is the accuracy you should aim for on your normal attacks, because bosses (Not sure if just operation bosses or flashpoint bosses too) have 10% defence, so your 110% becomes 100%.

 

Generally it isn't a good idea to miss, at all.

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Nonsense.

 

You want no accuracy rating at all.

 

The only attacks that benefit at all from are saber strike, trash and assassinate. They are not used often enough to make it worth having any accuracy.

 

All your force abilities will hit 100% of the time anyway and most part of your damage and even greater portion of your threat comes from those.

 

Missing a few saber strikes is never going to make noticeable difference.

 

Even if you did want more damage or threat, many other stats would benefit more.

 

You want all tank stats and no accuracy rating at all.

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Not much if any at all. My Sin Tank sits at

 

65 Shield Chance w/ dark ward

60 Absorb

and 29.** Defense

 

As a sin tank your rotation is pretty much shock, wither, discharge,auto attack(or trash is you have more than 70 force) shock, force lighting.. over and over again only 1 of your attacks(2 if you use trash, 3 is assassinate) use accuracy. Your safe dumping just about all of it.

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I got my info from Noxic (A site I trust): Absorption (50%) = Shield (50%) > Defense (25%) >= Endurance > Willpower >= Accuracy (110%)

 

And reading above I would see missing my Assassinates as a very bad thing. But I do agree that it is probably last on the list, I would still aim for accuracy instead of that last few % shield or absorb.

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I got my info from Noxic (A site I trust): Absorption (50%) = Shield (50%) > Defense (25%) >= Endurance > Willpower >= Accuracy (110%)

 

And reading above I would see missing my Assassinates as a very bad thing. But I do agree that it is probably last on the list, I would still aim for accuracy instead of that last few % shield or absorb.

 

Noxxic's info for shadow/assassin tanks is really, really bad. Their stat priority, for example, is completely wrong. More points in accuracy have a tiny, tiny contribution to tanking assassin DPS, due to the dominance of force attacks in our rotation. Best in Slot is the 91% accuracy that you get from maxing your melee tank. No one, not even DPS classes, should have 110% melee/ranged accuracy. Nothing over 100% matters in PvE, despite what Bioware's tooltips claim.

 

Here is the correct stat priority for assassin tanks moving into the Dread Guard tier:

 

Absorption (60%) >= Defense (30%) > Shield (65%) >= Endurance (27k) >>> Willpower > Power >>> Strength > Accuracy

 

Regarding endurance, once your mitigation is at this point, diminishing returns starts to hit really really hard. That, combined with the very high HPS of the low-thrash rotation means that endurance is very nearly a better stat than the mitigation stats, in terms of survivability contribution. Due to itemization quirks, high-endurance mods have a higher stat budget than low-endurance mods (thus, you're trading 1 point of mitigation for about 1.7 points of endurance). Because of this, all of your Dread Guard mods should be high-endurance (the 27B variants), while your enhancements should be low-endurance (Bastion and Bulwark).

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Noxxic's info for shadow/assassin tanks is really, really bad. Their stat priority, for example, is completely wrong. More points in accuracy have a tiny, tiny contribution to tanking assassin DPS, due to the dominance of force attacks in our rotation. Best in Slot is the 91% accuracy that you get from maxing your melee tank. No one, not even DPS classes, should have 110% melee/ranged accuracy. Nothing over 100% matters in PvE, despite what Bioware's tooltips claim.

 

Here is the correct stat priority for assassin tanks moving into the Dread Guard tier:

 

Absorption (60%) >= Defense (30%) > Shield (65%) >= Endurance (27k) >>> Willpower > Power >>> Strength > Accuracy

Hmm. Much to think on then. Thank you (And all the others here).

 

Are there any good sites out there worth reading? I am just back from a long break and new to tanking, planning on making sure I know what I am doing by the time I level up. Guides I have found are very generic, I like how Noxxic at least shows rotations etc.

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I got my info from Noxic (A site I trust): Absorption (50%) = Shield (50%) > Defense (25%) >= Endurance > Willpower >= Accuracy (110%)

 

Noxxic is absolutely wrong about many things.

 

It suggests exactly same percentages juggernauts as it does to assassins (which is wrong due to their different abilities) and to make matters worse suggests that those classes reach the same percentage with about same amount of rating stats (which is wrong since they start at different percentages without any stats on gear)

 

I could spend all day writing about everything that is wrong with Noxxic (granted it has been more wrong in the past and has improved just a little bit, but it is still wrong in so many things)

 

 

now to the other point:

Noxxic does not really understand how accuracy works:

"Normal attacks (Ranged/Melee) start with a base chance to hit of 90% and special attacks (Force/Tech) start with a 100% chance to hit. Bosses have a 10% defense chance which can be offset by 10% Bonus Accuracy for a total of 100% Ranged/Melee Accuracy and 110% Force/Tech Accuracy."

This is wrong. Special attacks are NOT the same thing as force or tech attacks as noxxic falsely claims.

 

Only your Saber Strike is a normal attack which has 90% base accuracy.

 

Other melee attacks such as Trash and Assassinate are melee special attacks which have 100% base accuracy, but they do still benefit from accuracy since they can be parried or dodged by the bosses defense chance and accuracy over 100% will reduce the bosses defense chance.

 

Your force (and tech for other classes) attacks do not benefit from accuracy rating at all in pve when doing level appropriate content. They have 100% base accuracy and will hit 100% of the time even without any accuracy rating. Going to accuracy over 100% does not benefit these abilities at all in any form, since even operation bosses do not have any avoidance chance against force and tech attacks. (The only time PvE enemies have avoidance against force and tech abilities is if you are low level character still leveling up but trying to kill mobs 5 levels higher than your own character, which is the only time force/tech abilities would benefit from accuracy rating)

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Hmm. Much to think on then. Thank you (And all the others here).

 

Are there any good sites out there worth reading? I am just back from a long break and new to tanking, planning on making sure I know what I am doing by the time I level up. Guides I have found are very generic, I like how Noxxic at least shows rotations etc.

 

mmo-mechanics.com/swtor is usually a good site for info. You might have to dig through the threads for what you want, but it's much better than Noxxic. They also have a pretty detailed spreadsheet you can use to play with numbers before investing money or coms. It'll give you accurate percentages based on the ratings you plug in and "squishiness" and "spikiness" values as well.

Edited by Pernicia
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Is 0 accuracy isn't little bit exaggerated...

 

The reason I asked about accuracy, I was reading my combat logs and I read that a boss dodged 3 of my assassinates during the burn phase which I think should hurt, it is one of our cheapest big hitters....

 

If u have goodly DPSes which are all parsing 2000 on the dummy this might not be so important but my guild is not in this league and they need my DPS also...

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Is 0 accuracy isn't little bit exaggerated...

 

The reason I asked about accuracy, I was reading my combat logs and I read that a boss dodged 3 of my assassinates during the burn phase which I think should hurt, it is one of our cheapest big hitters....

 

If u have goodly DPSes which are all parsing 2000 on the dummy this might not be so important but my guild is not in this league and they need my DPS also...

 

Adding accuracy makes very, very little difference in your DPS. As an example, my Assassinate hits for a little over 2k (3k if it crits), which is an average damage of 2285.6. It's a special attack, so has an extra 5% accuracy, and I have a bonus 1% accuracy from legacy companions. So, it will miss, on average, 4% of the time. Let's assume a static 360 second fight. Of that fight, 108 seconds will see the boss below 30%. Assassinate has a cooldown of 6 seconds, but in practice, you can't use it that often. Since the proc'd channel is more valuable (both in terms of damage and in terms of healing), you generally use assassinate twice per channel, which comes once every 15 seconds (when you have to wait for force regen due to assassinate usage). Thus, the frequency of Assassinate is 2/15 = 0.133/sec, or 14.4 total assassinates per boss. At a 4% miss rate, we will see an average of 0.576 assassinate misses per fight. That's a damage loss of 1316.51, which comes out to 3.66 DPS.

 

Even if your group is having issues meeting enrage timers, an extra 4 DPS is not going to help in the slightest. You will literally pick up more DPS by simply allowing your healers the opportunity to throw in a cheap attack now and again, and you can accomplish that goal by stacking mitigation over accuracy. Thus, I would argue that stacking accuracy *reduces* your group's overall DPS.

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Not much if any at all. My Sin Tank sits at

 

65 Shield Chance w/ dark ward

60 Absorb

and 29.** Defense

 

As a sin tank your rotation is pretty much shock, wither, discharge,auto attack(or trash is you have more than 70 force) shock, force lighting.. over and over again only 1 of your attacks(2 if you use trash, 3 is assassinate) use accuracy. Your safe dumping just about all of it.

 

 

Just slight note, you should be using thrash more than that, to proc energize or gt shock off cd.

 

Basic rotation is : shock->wither->discharge->thrash up to x2->shock->FL

 

Even if you have to fill in a saber strike after proccing energize, you'll still gain dps and proc your melee crit bonus if specced 31/0/10.

 

Sin doesn't suffer from degenerating ressource generation.

 

 

As far as accuracy goes, looking at previous rotation, accuracy is not worth it. I'm still using level 49 mods of shield/absorb on my rakata/BH geared tank-sin in the rakata pieces since the stats on them is endurance and accuracy first. BH mods are fixing that slowly tough.

 

Also why did someone put strenght in the stats priority list? Even placed at "low" or even the bottom of it, it means using a mod or armoring for warrior, and it should NEVER happens.

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Adding accuracy makes very, very little difference in your DPS. As an example, my Assassinate hits for a little over 2k (3k if it crits), which is an average damage of 2285.6. It's a special attack, so has an extra 5% accuracy, and I have a bonus 1% accuracy from legacy companions. So, it will miss, on average, 4% of the time. Let's assume a static 360 second fight. Of that fight, 108 seconds will see the boss below 30%. Assassinate has a cooldown of 6 seconds, but in practice, you can't use it that often. Since the proc'd channel is more valuable (both in terms of damage and in terms of healing), you generally use assassinate twice per channel, which comes once every 15 seconds (when you have to wait for force regen due to assassinate usage). Thus, the frequency of Assassinate is 2/15 = 0.133/sec, or 14.4 total assassinates per boss. At a 4% miss rate, we will see an average of 0.576 assassinate misses per fight. That's a damage loss of 1316.51, which comes out to 3.66 DPS.

 

Even if your group is having issues meeting enrage timers, an extra 4 DPS is not going to help in the slightest. You will literally pick up more DPS by simply allowing your healers the opportunity to throw in a cheap attack now and again, and you can accomplish that goal by stacking mitigation over accuracy. Thus, I would argue that stacking accuracy *reduces* your group's overall DPS.

 

Normally that would be my logic also but in this combat log the gods of statistic betrayed me and I got 3 sequential misses and that I had started questioning my logic...

 

To say the truth, I am full blackhole / Campaign mix but my health is aroung 26K I am not believer of 27K+ setup, I stack quite a lot willpower and I can say until now I never loost aggro to a DPS (even to above 2000+ parsers...), I find it no so optimal that the DPS has to slow down because I can generate enough aggro, so my Assinnate hits little bit harder then 2200 average....and one point u are missing, the doom of Sin Tank, it is hard to stick 15s FL HD rotation, for ex, red circle phase in Toth&Zorn , it is really tough to time a full cast of FL there, in that phase I stick more to the Assassinate...

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I use 0% bonus acr, and prefer getting defensive stats, our main rotation is wither, discharge, shock, trash (sometimes) or just saber strike, and FL when you have 3 stacks of HD. which means that our main agro build is force which never miss. So for PVE nothing at all.
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Noxxic's info for shadow/assassin tanks is really, really bad. Their stat priority, for example, is completely wrong. More points in accuracy have a tiny, tiny contribution to tanking assassin DPS, due to the dominance of force attacks in our rotation. Best in Slot is the 91% accuracy that you get from maxing your melee tank. No one, not even DPS classes, should have 110% melee/ranged accuracy. Nothing over 100% matters in PvE, despite what Bioware's tooltips claim.

 

Here is the correct stat priority for assassin tanks moving into the Dread Guard tier:

 

Absorption (60%) >= Defense (30%) > Shield (65%) >= Endurance (27k) >>> Willpower > Power >>> Strength > Accuracy

 

Regarding endurance, once your mitigation is at this point, diminishing returns starts to hit really really hard. That, combined with the very high HPS of the low-thrash rotation means that endurance is very nearly a better stat than the mitigation stats, in terms of survivability contribution. Due to itemization quirks, high-endurance mods have a higher stat budget than low-endurance mods (thus, you're trading 1 point of mitigation for about 1.7 points of endurance). Because of this, all of your Dread Guard mods should be high-endurance (the 27B variants), while your enhancements should be low-endurance (Bastion and Bulwark).

 

I dont know if I am understanding this wrong or whatever, but to me it looks like you are saying once you have hit 30/45/60 putting points in end and keeping the same def/shield/abs is going to be more beneficial.

 

I believer still stacking def/shield/absorb after 30/45/60 is better and any extra end you get(going from 61 to 63 for eg) is bonus. So I would still look at mods/enhancement which give me more mitigation stats as when I got from robust 26 to robust 27 I get more abs+ more end but I will not go from 26 to 27B in order to get more end.

 

correct me if I am wrong

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I dont know if I am understanding this wrong or whatever, but to me it looks like you are saying once you have hit 30/45/60 putting points in end and keeping the same def/shield/abs is going to be more beneficial.

 

That is what he's saying.

 

Self-healing is a non-trivial part of our overall survivability, and the only method of improving self-healing is increasing HP pool.

 

Once far enough into the DR curves, improving self-healing will do more to improve survivability than will simply adding more mitigation. 30/45/60 (in round numbers) is about where that occurs.

 

Regardless, the effective difference is minute, and KN's suggestions are predicated on the idea that you are gathering and spending Harnessed Darkness stacks as quickly as possible. If you are not good at maximizing your HD gain/spend, and/or you just don't give a hoot (which, let's be honest, many tanks, even serious raid tanks, don't), you're not going to be shockingly more squishy by stacking additional mitigation.

 

But hey, with the way mitigation and gearing are implemented in this game, it's all hairsplitting to begin with. Fight knowledge, situational awareness, reaction times (coupled with the right reactions!), the quality of the people around you, and sometimes just sheer luck are drastically more important than min/maxed gear. That said, min/maxing your gear never hurts. :D

 

Edit: KN is wrong about one thing, however, in that Assassinate has a 10% boost to Accuracy (due to the isSpecial flag). This does nothing to improve the value of Accuracy rating however.

Edited by Omophorus
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That is what he's saying.

 

Self-healing is a non-trivial part of our overall survivability, and the only method of improving self-healing is increasing HP pool.

 

Basically, after the 30/45/60 point (roughly), endurance and mitigation stats have equal value in terms of survivability contribution, and so you want to stack them evenly. However, the way gear is itemized actually carrots us to stack a lot more endurance than mitigation. The 27B mods have a substantially higher stat budget than the 27 (unlettered) mods, it's just that the stat budget is devoted primarily to endurance. Since endurance is of equal value to the mitigation stats at this point in the DR curves, the 27B mods provide a substantially higher survivability contribution than the 27 (unlettered) mods.

 

The same is not true of enhancements though. The low-endurance enhancements have almost exactly the same stat budget as the high-endurance enhancements. Thus, here you're better off stacking mitigation over endurance. Overall, your mods should all high-endurance low-mitigation (27B), while your enhancements should be low-endurance high-mitigation (Bastion and Bulwark).

 

Regardless, the effective difference is minute, and KN's suggestions are predicated on the idea that you are gathering and spending Harnessed Darkness stacks as quickly as possible. If you are not good at maximizing your HD gain/spend, and/or you just don't give a hoot (which, let's be honest, many tanks, even serious raid tanks, don't), you're not going to be shockingly more squishy by stacking additional mitigation.

 

This is a very important point. If you have around 26k HP and your combat logs on an average boss fight show less than 200 HPS (including proc heal relic), you're probably not managing your self-heal ideally and my advice is not applicable.

 

Edit: KN is wrong about one thing, however, in that Assassinate has a 10% boost to Accuracy (due to the isSpecial flag). This does nothing to improve the value of Accuracy rating however.

 

Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.

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Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.

 

101% Special Accuracy. Between needing 100% to guarantee a hit, and then 10% defense chance to deal with, you should expect to see ~9% missed Assassinates/Thrashes, though the low usage count means the sample size is tiny and variance in miss rate will be huge.

 

Once your Accuracy passes 100%, you can't outright miss a mob, however they can still defend (via parry/dodge), and the reason DPS classes dependent on white damage go to ~100% base Accuracy is to push their Special Accuracy to 110% and negate that defense chance entirely.

 

The 10% defense chance is in addition to any innate possibility of missing via being below 100% Accuracy.

 

Edit: This is easiest to see/understand looking at a dual wielding class. Offhand accuracy never passes 100%, so you *will* see missed hits that are not dodged or parried because they never landed in the first place.

Edited by Omophorus
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Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.

 

It wouldn't.

It would indicate that melee special attacks get avoided by the bosses 10% (or 9% if you have +1% from companion buff) of the time. You would need 110% melee special attack accuracy for the special attacks to hit 100% of the time. Note that 110% melee special attack accuracy is reached at 100% melee normal attack accuracy, so you still need only 100% melee accuracy for the special attacks to not get avoided. Normal attacks (Saber Strike only) can still be avoided at that point.

 

If special attack accuracy was only +5% (as in 95% base accuracy) then you should expect them to miss or get avoided 15% of the time against a target with 10% defense chance, but that does not seem to be the case.

 

 

 

Force and tech attacks of course do always hit even without any accuracy rating and they do not benefit at all from accuracy over 100% (which is their base accuracy) since pve enemies, not even ops bosses, do not have any avoidance (resist chance) against them, (unless you are low level character trying to kill mobs over 5 levels higher than you)

 

 

 

Not that I think that the ingame tooltips are always completely reliable, but just look at your character sheet and move your mouse over your melee accuracy and read the on-mouse-over popup tooltip.

 

It should look like this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/screenshot2012120719511.jpg/

 

So melee normal attacks have 90% base accuracy and melee special attacks have 100% base accuracy.

10% difference.

 

In this case I think the tooltip is correct.

 

As for the notion that operation bosses have 10% defense chance, I'm not so sure about that.

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As for the notion that operation bosses have 10% defense chance, I'm not so sure about that.

 

That's easy enough to test on the ops dummy. In fact, people have been doing precisely that since combat logging landed. 10% is a fairly well-verified number at this point.

 

As for the rest of the explanations, thank you! That clears things up quite a bit.

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That's easy enough to test on the ops dummy. In fact, people have been doing precisely that since combat logging landed. 10% is a fairly well-verified number at this point.

 

As for the rest of the explanations, thank you! That clears things up quite a bit.

 

Not only is it verified on the dummy, it's also confirmed outright by the devs. It was several months back, in fact.

 

They explicitly said current bosses (and the dummy was built to represent them) have a 10% defense chance.

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