Honestly, haven't seen a post, but giving them the ability to have 100% sheild chance for 12-15 seconds would make them pretty epic. They wouldn't change the status of being the smooth damage intakers, but with that kind of buff even more so for a few seconds on a 2 minute cool down. They are the shield tech spec for a reason. Just call it "overpowered/overcharged shield".

This is of course if they also fix sin tanks damage profile we might see pre 2.0 balance again.

 

Honestly, haven't seen a post, but giving them the ability to have 100% sheild chance for 12-15 seconds would make them pretty epic.

I can see a lot of problems with this, especially considering what can be done with Energy Blast. Reactive shield is already pretty amazing, but a long term guaranteed shield like that would be absolutely *nuts*.

Something else to consider is that Vanguards are the absolute weakest tanks against I/E damage: VGs only pack 19% I/E DR and 2% resist chance with only Reactive Shield applying to the damage. Guardians pack 24% I/E DR and 5% resist chance with *all* of their CDs working against I/E damage, and Shadows pack 23% I/E DR and 2% resist chance with 2 CDs that are effective against it. The difference isn't *massive*, but, considering that the only mitigation mechanisms that work against F/T I/E damage are DR and CDs, it's a reasonably big difference.

Honestly, I'd be perfectly happen with a talent linked to Riot Gas that provides the VG tank with 50% F/T damage reduction (which is multiplicative, not additive) for 5 seconds following Riot Gas's use. It's essentially a worse version of Resilience tied to an existing CD which is already used actively by VGs. It wouldn't really complicate things but would provide the burst F/T mitigation utility that the other tanks get.

Excuse my ignorance as I don't ever play pub side. What is the equivilant to riot gas?

Oil Slick.

Honestly, I'd be perfectly happen with a talent linked to Riot Gas that provides the VG tank with 50% F/T damage reduction (which is multiplicative, not additive) for 5 seconds following Riot Gas's use. It's essentially a worse version of Resilience tied to an existing CD which is already used actively by VGs. It wouldn't really complicate things but would provide the burst F/T mitigation utility that the other tanks get.

That would be good, specially because it gives 50% and not full resistance, but I'd like to see this happening in a different ability instead of riot gas/oil slick because you can use those 2 effects on very different situations, maybe hold the line/hydraulic or even create an additional ability

That would be good, specially because it gives 50% and not full resistance, but I'd like to see this happening in a different ability instead of riot gas/oil slick because you can use those 2 effects on very different situations, maybe hold the line/hydraulic or even create an additional ability

The reason why I say it should be on Riot Gas is because it's already on a 1 minute CD. HtL isn't a good option since it's only on a 30 sec CD which would allow it to be used *way* too often. Adding a new ability outright is a bit wonky since the idea behind VGs is to be simple.

Riot Gas only applies to M/R attacks (and actually benefits the other tanks or people that might catch cleaves). Adding the self 50% F/T resist would provide the needed benefits without requiring a lot of rework or borking things.

What about knockback immunity for a few seconds as a 2-3 min cd?

They already have that. Hold the Line is a 30 sec CD that lasts 6 seconds and provides immunity to all physics effects and increases movement speed by 30%. It's an interesting capability that definitely makes VGs interesting, but it doesn't really increase their survivability since they'll still take whatever damage the attack dealt.

The reason why I say it should be on Riot Gas is because it's already on a 1 minute CD. HtL isn't a good option since it's only on a 30 sec CD which would allow it to be used *way* too often. Adding a new ability outright is a bit wonky since the idea behind VGs is to be simple.

 

Riot Gas only applies to M/R attacks (and actually benefits the other tanks or people that might catch cleaves). Adding the self 50% F/T resist would provide the needed benefits without requiring a lot of rework or borking things.

I don't know, if the idea was to make them simple they kinda screwed it by making juggs simple and pt more complicated.

I would not like to waste oil slick on situations like scream on tfb (I would avoid a chunk of dmg from it but would take no benefit from the usual oil slick effect) or huge grenade (same thing).

What about adding a mechanic to hydraulic override in the tanking tree.. make it work like force shroud... for the first 3 seconds you would be immune to F/T attacks.. stick it on a 60-90 second CD

I just started playing my Jugg again since I was able to transfer it.... Saber Reflect is so OP its not even funny...as much as i'd like something like this for my PT I don't think its needed

What about adding a mechanic to hydraulic override in the tanking tree.. make it work like force shroud... for the first 3 seconds you would be immune to F/T attacks.. stick it on a 60-90 second CD

 

 

I just started playing my Jugg again since I was able to transfer it.... Saber Reflect is so OP its not even funny...as much as i'd like something like this for my PT I don't think its needed

As Kitru pointed out, you can't change the cooldown on HtL/Hydraulic Override without affecting ALL Troopers and Bounty Hunters.

stick it on a 60-90 second CD

The problem is that this would require nerfing Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides. Having a talent that increases the CD while providing said buff would be potentially detrimental in some situations (like when you have lots of KB but not much F/T) and the entire point of the talents is that they have *no* detriments (every talent is an explicit buff).

This is the main reason why I'm not entirely fond of making the capability act as a rider on HtL: the CD is just too short to really make it work in a balanced manner. The closest I could see it getting would be a 50% resist *chance* so that it averages out to the same contribution but is weakened by the fact that it's not reliable. This, of course, makes it clash with the whole "VGs are reliable" thing so it's not really thematically appropriate. Any amount of multiplicative DR that would really be considered balanced and useful (I can pretty much guarantee you it won't be additive since the point is to make it effective against F/T, though it *could* be done as something like 25% I/E damage reduction without getting particularly borked since I/E is so comparatively rare and it's the *major* weakness of VGs that needs some level of address) would be too low to really make a difference. Even 25% would be a bit too high thanks to the uptime and low CD. The closest I could imagine would be 15-20%, which isn't really enough to do what is being asked for.

Now, there *is* one idea I had that could allow HtL to be the carrier of the ability without being borked though it's pretty wonky. Include a talent that provides HtL with 200% resist chance for the duration but, if you resist an attack while it's up, the CD is increased by 45 seconds (just once per CD). The one issue is that most physics effects are F/T in origin so using it for its *existing* purpose would, quite often, put it on a much longer CD anyways. Conversely, the CD could be left alone but resisting an attack while HtL is active could place a visible debuff on the user that prevents the rider ability that grants the resist chance from being applied for 60 seconds after (so it only works on F/T once every other time, if it actually *applies* to said F/T, but can be used for physics immunity/move speed every time).

Honestly, Riot Gas/Oil Slick really is the best option because it requires the least reworking to attach an F/T rider to. HtL requires either complicating the rider or screwing up the ability for everyone else. Simplicity means that it's much more likely to happen, though I admit that I do like that last idea for HtL that I had (resisting an attack while HtL is active prevents you from getting the resist benefits for 60 seconds) quite a lot: it'd probably be my *favorite* implementation.

A debuff locking out just any talented buff from HtL would be an idea, but again the problem is what if you use HtL for one thing 5 seconds before your lockout expires and before you feel you need it for something else? You just effectively increased the lockout by 25 seconds.

Honestly wouldn't it be simplest to just give them another completely separate cooldown? Adding one ability isn't going to stop them from being the "simple" tank, and even if it did adding something as a rider on another ability, regardless of implementation, is only really going to complicate their decision trees and be less simple than simply adding another button to press. That may be more desirable, I don't know, but then the argument that adding a whole new ability ruins them as a "simple tank" kind of stops holding water.

Said it at the start, will say it again. It seems people are asking not for a proper cooldown but a mechanic cheeser. We already have that in Hydraulic Overrides. Let's take an actual look at the current situation of tank cooldowns:

Self Heal:

Jugg – Endure Pain. Instant 15.2k heal. Refunds the health after 20 seconds (though it’s better to click it off when you’re good on health).

Sin – Overcharge Saber. Instant 5.7k heal. Causes Dark Charge to heal for roughly 60 HPS more than normal. Also has 25% DR tied in.

Powertech – Kolto Overload and Shoulder Cannon. Kolto Overload heals at 2800 HPS when under 30%, and 900 HPS when over 30%. That’s between 7.2k and 22.4k healing over 8 seconds. Shoulder Cannon heals 1900 HPS for 4 seconds, or 7.6k total. Active self healing can then range from 7k to 30k. Also has passive self healing when taking damage from AOE.

Notes: I argue with myself every day if Kolto Overload or Endure Pain is better. Kolto overload heals for a lot more, but Endure Pain wins against large spikes every time. Sins are definitely lagging in this department (looking only at the healing capabilities of the above, not any tied in DR).

Defense Chance:

Jugg – Saber Ward. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase, with the first 2-3 seconds being 100% defense chance. 2.5 minute CD gives it an uptime of 8% if used on cooldown. Also has a 25% damage reduction for Force/Tech attacks tied into it.

Sin – Deflection. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase. 2 minute CD gives it an uptime of 10%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

Powertech – Oil Slick. 17 seconds of 30% defense chance increase on targets in marked area. Raid members other than the PT tank can benefit from this effect. 1 minute CD gives an uptime of 28.3%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

Notes: Looking strictly at the above CD’s effects on Melee/Ranged damage we see good balance between the 3 tanks. Juggs and Sins are very similar, with Juggs getting a longer CD to penalize the 100% initial defense chance. Powertech’s have a smaller Defense Chance increase but this is balanced by Oil Slick having remarkable uptime, and the ability for Oil Slick to be used for the co-tank’s benefit (in fact, Oil Slick is the only CD you can pop for another tank).

Damage Reductions:

Jugg – Invincible. 40% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime.

Jugg – Saber Ward. 25% damage reduction to all Force/Tech attacks (Kinetic or Internal). Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime. Has 50% melee/defense chance increase tied to it.

Jugg – Total effect. Having 12 seconds of CD followed by 12 seconds of CD each on a 2.5 minute timer gives an uptime of 16%.

Sin – Overcharge Saber. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 15 seconds on a 2 minute CD giving a 12.5% uptime. Has a 5.7k heal tied to it.

Powertech – Energy Shield. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 18 seconds on a 2 minute CD, giving a 15% uptime.

Notes: Sins and Powertechs are very similar in this department. They each have the same DR and same CD timer, and the longer effect on Energy Shield is balanced by the initial self heal for Sins. Juggs really pull away in this department by having 2 cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage. Even though the uptimes are 12.5% - 15% - 16% (more balanced than initial appearances) being able to activate a CD at 2 separate times is a strong advantage.

I Win Buttons:

Jugg – Saber Reflect. 100% damage immunity to specific Ranged, Force, or Tech attacks. Lasts 5 seconds on a 1 minute CD giving an 8.3% uptime.

Sin – Force Shroud. 100% Resist chance to Force/Tech attacks. Last 5 seconds, and the cooldown is nominally 1 minute but can be reduced to around 45 seconds, giving an uptime between 8.3% and 11.1%.

Notes: Powertech’s aren’t on this list. There is nothing a PT can do to say “I win for the next 5 seconds.”

The asymmetries are that 1) Sins fall behind in the initial self heal department (other 2 tanks balanced here). 2) Juggs are far ahead in the long duration cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage (other 2 tanks balanced here). 3) Powertechs don’t have the “I win button” that has been a long time feature of Sin tanking and was handed to Juggs in 2.0.

How does all of that play out in practice? Well, for 1) it depends on the fight but Sins can cloak out of combat to reset their medpac (which PT and Jugg can’t) on the same cadence of Overcharge Saber. While not optimal, Overcharge Saber + Medpac can be simultaneously used for an 11k heal. That’s still behind Endure Pain, but it’s enough to eat another spike hit (remember you get the 25% DR too) and you don’t have to refund the HP. For 2) a small but incomplete balancing of having twice as many F/T Cd’s is that Juggs have the worst F/T mitigation. And for 3) Force Shroud and Saber Reflect are never actual guarantees of winning. Popping either on Writhing Horror will mitigate 1 out of 4 hits, and bad timing can actually cause 0 hits to be mitigated (the F/T hit is every 6 seconds). As far as using either to break mechanics, the Powertech’s counterpart is Hydraulic Overrides, which is a 6 second duration on a 30 second CD.

At this point with Jugg’s armor value encroaching on Powertech’s, and Juggs being a simpler class to play now (there I’ve said it, I can just do more with the PT, it isn't the simple tank anymore), the staple of Powertech’s should now be that they don’t need the “I win button.” I really like to think of Powertechs right now as riding a motorcycle without a helmet. You just look so much cooler while doing what everyone else can, often better. You just can’t crash.

Said it at the start, will say it again. It seems people are asking not for a proper cooldown but a mechanic cheeser. We already have that in Hydraulic Overrides.

Except that being immune to physics isn't really a mechanic cheeser. The only mechanics that really matter are the massive damage ones. Getting to ignore physics doesn't measure up to being able to ignore Scream, Huge Grenade, and the like.

Except that being immune to physics isn't really a mechanic cheeser. The only mechanics that really matter are the massive damage ones. Getting to ignore physics doesn't measure up to being able to ignore Scream, Huge Grenade, and the like.

Exactly that.

As I said before, I don't think that the lack of a major cd on a powertech is a balance breaker issue, but nonetheless it is an issue, and at the same time while the other tanks do have a 100% dmg reduction ability on a short cd I do believe that powertechs should not have that but instead have something that improves *greatly* your survivability in a massive dmg situation, and I do think that this is even more needed now that powertechs are not the best passive mitigation in game, if they were I could undertand not having a great cd but right now we have another class with better passive mitigation, ridiculous cooldowns and one mechanic cheeser ability, this is a big unbalance.

And since shoulder cannon was mentioned, for me it is a very well thought skill but a bad implementation (and even worse for dps trees btw) since you have 2 bad options: You either use it every time it is available to make sure the cd keeps going and in doing so you will be getting heals when you don't really need while probably not having it when needed, or you load the 4 missiles and wait for a situation where you need it and spam it, problem is if you don't use them you end up loosing it (therefore having to spam them all just to not waste it) or even if you have to use it the cd only happens when you actually fire the missiles so you have less healing during the fight because you reduced the uptime on the missiles. Those problems make it a very unreliable skill, I personally use it always when available only making sure I don't overheal, I really think its easy to fix this by just either giving you the 4 missiles right away, removing the time on the missile buff so you can save the missiles without fear of loosing them after some time or putting the ability on cd as soon as you load the 4th missile and not after you fire it, either of the 3 options are simple and good fixes that could make shoulder cannon much better for tanks.

Jugg – Endure Pain. Instant 15.2k heal. Refunds the health after 20 seconds (though it’s better to click it off when you’re good on health).

Endure Pain is not a heal at all so putting it in this category doesn't make sense. Now I realize you did so because you have nowhere to put it due to the way you've listed the defensive cooldowns. It being a temporary health increase doesn't make it work. If you want to put something here, put Enraged Defense since that's an actual heal.

Jugg – Invincible. 40% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime.

 

Jugg – Saber Ward. 25% damage reduction to all Force/Tech attacks (Kinetic or Internal). Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime. Has 50% melee/defense chance increase tied to it.

 

Jugg – Total effect. Having 12 seconds of CD followed by 12 seconds of CD each on a 2.5 minute timer gives an uptime of 16%.

 

Notes: Sins and Powertechs are very similar in this department. They each have the same DR and same CD timer, and the longer effect on Energy Shield is balanced by the initial self heal for Sins. Juggs really pull away in this department by having 2 cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage. Even though the uptimes are 12.5% - 15% - 16% (more balanced than initial appearances) being able to activate a CD at 2 separate times is a strong advantage.

This is misleading because no decent tank uses Saber Ward for the damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks on the vast majority of fights. The melee/ranged defense boost is far more effective and is the main reason to use the skill. Unless you are fighting SoA or Kephess the Undying, the 25% damage reduction to Tech/Force is incidental at best and irrelevant for the most part.

Endure Pain is not a heal at all so putting it in this category doesn't make sense. Now I realize you did so because you have nowhere to put it due to the way you've listed the defensive cooldowns. It being a temporary health increase doesn't make it work. If you want to put something here, put Enraged Defense since that's an actual heal.

First off, Enraged Defense is *not* a useful tank CD. It costs *way* too much Focus and demolishes your threat. It's pretty much entirely worthless for a tank.

Secondly, Enure fulfills the same *functionality niche* as Adrenaline Rush and the self heal on Battle Readiness: they both provide emergency hit points. Yes, said hit points only exist for a short period of time, but, when you consider the scenarios that you *need* emergency hit points for, you're not looking to achieve immortality; you're almost *always* looking to buy yourself a few extra seconds to get some heals thrown on you, which is exactly what Enure does. In fact, it does it better than any of the other similar CDs because it's a 30% cushion and can be used *proactively* or reactively, with no diminished effect either way.

Now, I have no idea how good this idea actually is, but what the heck.

So, my idea is that when the PT/VG takes X amount of damage, say 1000 points of damage, it gives him a 1% Damage Reduction for, say, 20 seconds. This would be able to stack five times, and the effect couldn't occur more than once every ten seconds.

This would still keep VG/PTs as the "Smooth Damage Takers," and in effect, make them able to take more damage the more damage they take.

Feel free to tear this idea to pieces.

First off, Enraged Defense is *not* a useful tank CD. It costs *way* too much Focus and demolishes your threat. It's pretty much entirely worthless for a tank.

 

Secondly, Enure fulfills the same *functionality niche* as Adrenaline Rush and the self heal on Battle Readiness: they both provide emergency hit points. Yes, said hit points only exist for a short period of time, but, when you consider the scenarios that you *need* emergency hit points for, you're not looking to achieve immortality; you're almost *always* looking to buy yourself a few extra seconds to get some heals thrown on you, which is exactly what Enure does. In fact, it does it better than any of the other similar CDs because it's a 30% cushion and can be used *proactively* or reactively, with no diminished effect either way.

Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.

Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

 

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.

Yeah but as a healer I would take the extra time to go back and heal when things are all good than just a little increase on the tank hp that still requires me to heal him right now.

Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

 

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.

in tank eyes, that might be right. in few scenarios where boss will be forced to attack you instead of anyone else.

But 2 seconds after you use enraged defense, you lose aggro and he no longer hits you - no more heals from hits, and some one else is to heal (probably dps) who needs more healing then you. yes, taunt, another 6 seconds he's on you, a taunt that could be used on next target switch is blown cause tank decided to use enraged defense.

there are few places where you would turn it on just to neutralize one big hit incoming and then click it off, but reflect is much better for that.

by all means, it's a great utility - for dps jugg specced into it (both trees has their bonuses for it) and for tank being focused in PVP.

but that's off topic.

please give us atleast 6-8 % into shield chance... take the flamethower if you must... all that buffs to absorb are being not used with low shield chance

What if we just buffed the existing Shield CD? Say, 50% damage reduction to all vs. the current 25%?

-Fits with the 'Shieldtech' theme of the Powertech (and VG, yes, sorry)

-Keeps with the theme of "we don't have an OH @$!% button but we take very smooth damage

-Keeps with the theme of "it's a fairly simple tank style and thus (rightfully?) lacks a pure shroud cheese mechanism"

-Simple to implement

I plucked 50% out of thin air. Insert whatever percentage makes sense. It would be nice to keep (or restore, after the warrior/guardian megabuff) the PT/VG "feel", i.e. has slightly less effective CD's because it's the least spiky tank. But otherwise, I like the central thrust of this thread. When they eventually fix shadow/sin dmg spike profiles to fit the new NiM content, the PT/VG goes right back to 'least viable endgame PVE tank' unless we receive either an additional CD or significant buffs to existing CD's.

What if we just buffed the existing Shield CD? Say, 50% damage reduction to all vs. the current 25%?

It would be massively borked because it lasts 18 seconds (+3 from set, +3 from AC passive) and it already provides 25% additive damage reduction. For K/E, this means that you're already taken less than half of the damage you would normally take while it's active. With your change, VGs would take *no* K/E damage for the entire duration since it would push their DR above 100% (it's ~51% already).

It also doesn't address the fact that VGs only have a CD up half as often as a Shadow (and even less than a Guardian, because Guardians are *totes* balanced). The need isn't for *stronger* CDs. It's for *more*, and, honestly, since Guardians got Saber Reflect, any tank that is incapable of cheesing at least a few spike mechanics is going to be sub-par which is why VGs need one. When Shadows were the only tank with a cheesing mechanism, it wasn't really required, but, now that Guardians have one as well, it's, honestly, something that should be standard across all tanks.

in tank eyes, that might be right. in few scenarios where boss will be forced to attack you instead of anyone else.

But 2 seconds after you use enraged defense, you lose aggro and he no longer hits you - no more heals from hits, and some one else is to heal (probably dps) who needs more healing then you. yes, taunt, another 6 seconds he's on you, a taunt that could be used on next target switch is blown cause tank decided to use enraged defense.

there are few places where you would turn it on just to neutralize one big hit incoming and then click it off, but reflect is much better for that.

 

by all means, it's a great utility - for dps jugg specced into it (both trees has their bonuses for it) and for tank being focused in PVP.

 

but that's off topic.

please give us atleast 6-8 % into shield chance... take the flamethower if you must... all that buffs to absorb are being not used with low shield chance

All that stuff can happen if someone uses Enraged Defense incorrectly, but after getting practice on it, I've never had threat or rage issues with it. This is a guide I wrote on how to use Enraged Defense properly. Anyways, this topic is about PT/VGs so that's the end of my piece.