Well when we are down to 1 server left and your the last one still typing L2P...lol. We will see who is right about the yank/push/stun fest you have left to play by yourself. The pvp is distasteful and that is what he is saying. I'm done here and see you in F2P. Here is my vote- unsub

 

I didn't see the OP coming on the forums complaining about how distasteful pvp is before him and his guild got rocked in RWZ by a good team. I also didn't see him complain when him and his guild were stomping on pugs in normal WZs, and it's unfair to them pugs. Nope, only when he got rocked in a RWZ did he suddenly "realize" how broken pvp is.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Smashbrother

Well my guild decided to do some Ranked Warzones tonight. Half the team were in full BiS WH, the other half a mix BM/WH - myself being a mix of BM/WH. All of us fully augmented.

 

Now all you people out there saying that a fully augmented BM player is comparable to a fully augmented WH player, are flat out lying or have no idea what they are talking about. The team we went up against, multiple times, have all BiS WH and spammed grenades like there is no tomorrow. I have never, in my entire time spent PvP'ing, died so quickly or have been CC'd so much.

 

I had quite a few 1v1's versus these guys, and my Sentinel could not do a thing to beat any of them, even specs I know how to beat and beat all the time in normal WZ's. Is was not a matter of skill, just shear damage. I have over 1300 Expertise and these guys were cutting through me like butter and there was not a thing I could do about it, even with my uber defensive cooldowns. I was being taken down with shear brute force alone.

 

The last game we played, Huttball, was just a complete joke. I can now say without a shadow of a doubt that the resolve change was the worst idea Bioware have ever had. In a competitive PvP setting it should not be possible to spend over half the game either completely incapacitated or unable to move through grenade/slow spamming. These were pro's and when they mezzed, they made sure not to break us out of it and just focused us one at a time. The trouble is, we could be mezzed/stunned/incapacitated so many times within a minute, our stun breaker was pretty much useless.

 

You people think going up against a 4-man premade of BiS WH players is bad...I think you would quit the game entirely if you played the team we played tonight. These guys were sick, both in a good and a bad way. It just highlighted how utterly broken PvP is at a competitive level - no wonder Season 1 hasn't started yet, it would be absolute carnage.

 

And it doesn't matter if you finally reach BiS yourself, the damage a competent team is capable of through clever use of grenade spamming and coordinating attacks, will bring the best geared player down in seconds. That kind of damage should not be possible in a competitive PvP environment, it is game breaking. I have close to the Expertise cap and 18500 health, so even when I do each BiS myself, I will still die just as quickly, I just may stand a chance at killing them before they kill me. Assuming I stick around that long, this DPS arms race is not fun in the slightest. One mistake, and it's dead. One cooldown unavailable, and it's dead.

 

I knew PvP was in a bad place right now, but I had no idea just how bad until going up against this team tonight. I'm appalled that PvP has been allowed to get this bad. At the very least damage needs to be toned down, I see no logical reason for it being so high when BiS with the limited health pools available, none at all. And the resolve change, my god what were Bioware thinking... So stay away from Ranked Warzones if you want to continue to find some solace in PvP, it's a bad joke, and that joke will be on you - unless your whole team is BiS and can grenade spam and coordinate your attacks to effectively nullify the entire other team because resolve is broken and damage is too high....

 

And for the record this isn't a QQ post, this is a where did it all go wrong post? So very very wrong...

 

Yes i agree with everything u have said I believe the expertise changes made in 1.2 ruined PVP entirely nerf a few classes and then BUFF the hell of of damage expertise and damage reduction and do nothing to heal bonus so in affect the nerfs to some classes was nulifyed! and killed healing in PvP, as a Healer i get focused down constantly unless i have 1 or 2 good healers healing me and me healing them and good dps to peel the attackers off of the healers. I have 1360 expertise 99% WH gear and BM legs fully augemented out and still get hit for 5k smashes so wat the hell can you do ? and on top of that some players feel that that still need to hack (anti interupt/12k hits/shooting thru walls) and generally hacking and cheating! Im not to sure wat BW are planning but they need to fix this BS fast alot of the old players are comeing back includeing myself but if changes are not made soon i can see that this game will be totally F2P with zero subs!

 

LOL @BW *** Thexremstar

I never said I was a PVP god,...

 

I'd bet anything that I know 100x more about this game then you,

 

So you're not claiming to be a SWTOR PvP expert but you're a SWTOR PvP expert.

 

You also seem confused by wanting to be seen as the game expert, and react defensively when your expertise is questioned, while dismissing the subject you want to be an expert in. Which is understandable, because that undermines any kudos you'd gain from being accepted as an expert.

 

But when someone presents a solid argument, while at the same time understanding their playing limitations, the idiots so spam L2P, look just as that, IDIOTS.

 

And when he presents a solid argument I'll accept it. His team was massively outplayed, he could work out how to improve, but would prefer to blame the game and insist it should be changed. I'd accept he has a point when he says getting thrashed isn't fun for people - but crucially he's got thrashed because the other team was better. Skill was the factor. The arguments that one legal move is fine while another is "demeaning" aren't coherent.

 

He's also correct that getting stunned and unable to act isn't fun. But neither is getting killed, and we're not going to ban that I hope, while you don't spend the whole time stunned against teams of similar ability (be they good or bad). I'd say stuns could be toned down (like a shorter cd on breakers), but the main cause of his problem still arises from being mismatched.

 

I said this once, and I'll say it again. SWTOR is a laughing stock in the MMO community, and no way in hell, anyone takes the PVP seriously. When was the last time you actually saw someone mention SWTOR PVP as great and or competitive to the point where real e-sport teams are considering playing it? Never - because that's what I'm seeing right now. You guys can point fingers and laugh at people but LOL is having multi-million dollar tournaments, and at the same time, GW2 is announcing the same thing.. However, SWTOR devs are spending millions of dollars on useless **** like the Legacy Tree, instead of working on the PVP.

 

Which can be covered by "why on Earth should I care?". I don't play SWTOR so I can be in at the ground floor of the next esport and have all the MMO-PvP-esport community ("community", that's a laugh) be impressed at me. This rant is obviously some stored-up resentment of yours that you've felt able to tack onto OP's conflation of getting soundly beaten by a better team with design problems, but it's really not related.

 

If you're angry that SWTOR didn't give you credibility in this minor field why not try and find something more rewarding to spend your time on? And maybe play a game for fun rather than status. And not hold a grudge that game developers didn't pay enough attention to you for your liking.

 

All isn't perfect in SWTOR PvP, no, and I am not the best player in the world. But I seem to have a bit more perspective on how to deal constructively with disappointment.

Yes I'm very sensitive to people who like to lie.

 

First off you need to go back to school because you obviously don't understand grammar. Your title in no way informs the reader that you thought pvp was broken before doing RWZs.

 

Please quote me where I said "pvp is just fine the way it is", because I wrote tons of stuff in this thread suggesting all the ways pvp needs to be fixed. Just because I think all your ideas are stupid doesn't mean I think pvp is just fine.

 

I'm not even going to go into how immature half of what you just said sounds. You haven't written tons of stuff about how to fix PvP, you've tried your hardest to bash me because you think I'm being "stupid". You're looking at the whole situation with tunnel-vision, and that's fine, you're entitled to look at things any way you want, but you really aren't winning anyone over here.

 

I didn't see the OP coming on the forums complaining about how distasteful pvp is before him and his guild got rocked in RWZ by a good team. I also didn't see him complain when him and his guild were stomping on pugs in normal WZs, and it's unfair to them pugs. Nope, only when he got rocked in a RWZ did he suddenly "realize" how broken pvp is.

 

Actually if you check my post history I have been very vocal about how distasteful I find PvP. It's a pity, some of my best posts have been deleted by Bioware's iron fist as of late for criticising developer interaction and the games impending doom if PvP is left in its current state, which were weeks before I made this thread, weeks before I played in those RWZ matches. And for the record, I have found PvP distasteful since 1.2, but that is another discussion and not much we can do about that now. All we can do is look at the mistakes made and try to overcome them, but I can assure you, if PvP stays as it is, the game will suffer and quite possibly fail. Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Sweeet

So you honestly feel the current state of CC and high burst is OK? Shame on you.

 

No I said his post doesn't cover what is broken. Cc in this game is one of the worst designed elements in an Mmo to date since Daoc's stungard days.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Mercbenz

So you're not claiming to be a SWTOR PvP expert but you're a SWTOR PvP expert.

 

You also seem confused by wanting to be seen as the game expert, and react defensively when your expertise is questioned, while dismissing the subject you want to be an expert in. Which is understandable, because that undermines any kudos you'd gain from being accepted as an expert.

 

 

 

And when he presents a solid argument I'll accept it. His team was massively outplayed, he could work out how to improve, but would prefer to blame the game and insist it should be changed. I'd accept he has a point when he says getting thrashed isn't fun for people - but crucially he's got thrashed because the other team was better. Skill was the factor. The arguments that one legal move is fine while another is "demeaning" aren't coherent.

 

He's also correct that getting stunned and unable to act isn't fun. But neither is getting killed, and we're not going to ban that I hope, while you don't spend the whole time stunned against teams of similar ability (be they good or bad). I'd say stuns could be toned down (like a shorter cd on breakers), but the main cause of his problem still arises from being mismatched.

 

 

 

Which can be covered by "why on Earth should I care?". I don't play SWTOR so I can be in at the ground floor of the next esport and have all the MMO-PvP-esport community ("community", that's a laugh) be impressed at me. This rant is obviously some stored-up resentment of yours that you've felt able to tack onto OP's conflation of getting soundly beaten by a better team with design problems, but it's really not related.

 

If you're angry that SWTOR didn't give you credibility in this minor field why not try and find something more rewarding to spend your time on? And maybe play a game for fun rather than status. And not hold a grudge that game developers didn't pay enough attention to you for your liking.

 

All isn't perfect in SWTOR PvP, no, and I am not the best player in the world. But I seem to have a bit more perspective on how to deal constructively with disappointment.

 

Where have I not presented solid arguments? It has been gone over in meticulous detail how it is not just a case of being beaten by coordination, but when you combine all the CC, high burst and gear imbalance that it breaks PvP. That sounds like a design problem to me don't you think? The only thing those Ranked Warzones did, were highlight those design problems in their fullest. I'm also not denying I was soundly beaten, I was well and truly soundly beaten - it is the way in which I was beaten that I believe is not doing the game any favours what so ever. It is that very type of gameplay that is putting people off of playing the game, yet for some reason no matter how many times I or others try and explain that, you and the rest completely ignore it with your tunnel-vision proclaiming I'm just QQ'ing because I got beaten by coordination.... It's turning into a bit of a joke now, if you can’t see where we are coming from by now, then you and the rest are in some serious denial about the current state of PvP within the game.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Sweeet

Biggest problem I see is the stun grenades, there is enough cc in the game that adding a stun grenade....check that an AOE stun grenade is just stupid. If we can't use crafted adrenals in the war zones why are we permitted to use these stun grenades.

Now I agree with your point on stun grenades etc. But your point on burst damage etc is wayyyy off. Playing at the top tier if you have 2 equal teams youll be lucky to get a kill every 45 seconds because the players are that on the ball with everything. it's not just the healers job to keep you alive, its your responsibility to know how to survive if u get into a bad situation and also to know how to stay positioned correctly. Antipodes which is one of the posters on the first page is on the best pub guild from our server and I am in the best imp guild and organizing a kill is a pain, not to mention the amount of times where it came down to coordination, not kills or burst to win the game. Like how we played them the other night in a novare with 2 deception assassin, an EXTREMELY drunk sin and jugg tank, and an op dps and we still beat them despite only getting 3 kills compared to their 35, we 3 capped them even. Damage as it stands is fine, the only one that needs tweaking is rage/focus in my opinion. You either coordinate as well as the other teams do or you get smashed, end of story.

Now I agree with your point on stun grenades etc. But your point on burst damage etc is wayyyy off. Playing at the top tier if you have 2 equal teams youll be lucky to get a kill every 45 seconds because the players are that on the ball with everything. it's not just the healers job to keep you alive, its your responsibility to know how to survive if u get into a bad situation and also to know how to stay positioned correctly. Antipodes which is one of the posters on the first page is on the best pub guild from our server and I am in the best imp guild and organizing a kill is a pain, not to mention the amount of times where it came down to coordination, not kills or burst to win the game. Like how we played them the other night in a novare with 2 deception assassin, an EXTREMELY drunk sin and jugg tank, and an op dps and we still beat them despite only getting 3 kills compared to their 35, we 3 capped them even. Damage as it stands is fine, the only one that needs tweaking is rage/focus in my opinion. You either coordinate as well as the other teams do or you get smashed, end of story.

 

Nobody is denying that is what it takes to compete, we all know that coordination is king in high-end PvP. What we are trying to explain, is that type of gameplay is so unforgiving, it puts people off of PvP altogether, and thus is a detriment to the game. High-end PvP is an inhospitable unforgiving environment and it is putting people off of the game, end of story.

 

That is a design issue, not a L2P issue. You are all obviously very passionate about the game, but if you honestly want what is best for it, then PvP needs to change or the game simply will not have the customer retention it needs in order to thrive. Learning how to coordinate is not the issue in and of itself, the issue is that people do not enjoy what it takes to get to that point so they don't bother. That tells you that there is something very wrong in the way PvP has been designed. When people would prefer not to play at all rather than learn how to play in this inhospitable environment, something is very very wrong, and it needs to change.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Sweeet

high end pvp in pretty much every game is on the player and not the game, look at wow, league of legends, GW2, pretty much any relevant game and it is up to the player to be able to compete on that level. Not make the game easier for those who cant put up what they need to.

Don't worry those guys the OP just described are not limited to ranked pvp (at least on our server), I see them in normal warzones all the time. Two days ago I had a match against 4 people with Elite Warlord titles. I've never seen 8 people die so quickly, I got swarmed and was dead before I could blink or even get off the first skill. Then, of course everyone on our side left. And then the enemy team typed "gg" in /say -.-

 

I really don't understand how they cannot make a decent matchmaking system that takes expertise, valor and team composition into account in both regular and ranked warzones.

 

Granted there can be some close, enjoyable matches but for me those are few and far between. 95% of the time it's one side annihilating the other and it's a matter of luck, which side you wind up on. It's not a QQ post any more than the thousands of other similar posts but surely BW can realize that there are a myriad issues (gear gap, class imbalance, pug vs premade matches, broken expertise and resolve system) that are destroying PvP in my favorite MMO.

 

Sometimes I think the players care more about this game than the developers. What sometimes, all the time...

Edited November 5, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

high end pvp in pretty much every game is on the player and not the game, look at wow, league of legends, GW2, pretty much any relevant game and it is up to the player to be able to compete on that level. Not make the game easier for those who cant put up what they need to.

 

No it is up to the game developer to make sure the game is a fun and hospitable environment for all who play it. SWTOR does not do that in the slightest. What we have here, is a game that now caters its PvP to a niche few who have simply learnt to live with it. We then have the top echelon of players who can utterly abuse their position to make everyone else's life a misery, and they do it on a daily basis because Bioware have made it possible. They can do this because burst damage is too high when BiS, CC is well over the top and the difference between Recruit/BM compared to WH BiS is still far too big given the limited health pools and high burst available.

 

No-one is asking for Bioware to flat out make it easier, we are asking to make the game more hospitable and fun for all who play it. If anything it would make the game harder as it would put people on a more level playing field with each other meaning better overall competition. Those top echelon of players will still dominate, so I really don't see what the problem is here, as it can only benefit the game as a whole. The more people happily playing PvP, the more money Bioware makes and thus more development gets put into PvP - why are so many people against that if not for their own selfish reasons?

 

Nothing is set in stone remember, MMO's are evolving all the time, except in this case, since 1.2, PvP has seemed to devolve with nearly every patch.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Sweeet

I completely agree Sweet and Commanderkeava. I don't think they understand why they have lost soooooo many subscribers. It's not because of the story quest or the pve lol. They better get it right before the F2P leaches say the hell with it too.

No it is up to the game developer to make sure the game is a fun and hospitable environment for all who play it. SWTOR does not do that in the slightest. What we have here, is a game that now caters its PvP to a niche few who have simply learnt to live with it. We then have the top echelon of players who can utterly abuse their position to make everyone else's life a misery, and they do it on a daily basis because Bioware have made it possible. They can do this because burst damage is too high when BiS, CC is well over the top and the difference between Recruit/BM compared to WH BiS is still far too big given the limited health pools and high burst available.

 

No-one is asking for Bioware to flat out make it easier, we are asking to make the game more hospitable and fun for all who play it. If anything it would make the game harder as it would put people on a more level playing field with each other meaning better overall competition. Those top echelon of players will still dominate, so I really don't see what the problem is here, as it can only benefit the game as a whole. The more people happily playing PvP, the more money Bioware makes and thus more development gets put into PvP - why are so many people against that if not for their own selfish reasons?

 

Nothing is set in stone remember, MMO's are evolving all the time, except in this case, since 1.2, PvP has seemed to devolve with nearly every patch.

 

Ive said it before and Ill say it again Healers GOT NERED due to the MASSIVE expertise boost 1.2 for damage out put It was IN FACT balanced pre 1.2 all expertise boosts was the same but because a % of the community could not kill the healers they all complained there fore healers GOT NERFED (because the DPS expertise BOOST) look at how the expertise "BALANCE" is not there! 23%damage 18%reduction 13%heals how fair for the equal gear sets LMFAO!!

Ive said it before and Ill say it again Healers GOT NERED due to the MASSIVE expertise boost 1.2 for damage out put It was IN FACT balanced pre 1.2 all expertise boosts was the same but because a % of the community could not kill the healers they all complained there fore healers GOT NERFED (because the DPS expertise BOOST) look at how the expertise "BALANCE" is not there! 23%damage 18%reduction 13%heals how fair for the equal gear sets LMFAO!!

 

Would you say healing in PvP is in a bad spot right now?

****, Sweeet - you have it spot on: "I had quite a few 1v1's versus these guys, and my Sentinel could not do a thing to beat any of them, even specs I know how to beat and beat all the time in normal WZ's. Is was not a matter of skill, just shear damage. I have over 1300 Expertise and these guys were cutting through me like butter and there was not a thing I could do about it, even with my uber defensive cooldowns. I was being taken down with shear brute force alone". You stupid *********** designers!! :" Is was not a matter of skill". " I was being taken down with shear brute force alone". Which *********** part of this is hard to grasp?! Tank vs DPS: 1. Tank has more defense aka takes less damage. 2. DPS has less defense aka takes more damage. 3. Tank does less overall damage, but more damage gets past defense of DPS. 4. DPS does more overall damage, but less damage gets pass defense of tank! ****, no! There is not stand-off with skill deciding the outcome!! It's a *********** whitewash for DPS!! *** is broken with this game? Nothing! Asolutely *********** nothing!!

****, Sweeet - you have it spot on: "I had quite a few 1v1's versus these guys, and my Sentinel could not do a thing to beat any of them, even specs I know how to beat and beat all the time in normal WZ's. Is was not a matter of skill, just shear damage. I have over 1300 Expertise and these guys were cutting through me like butter and there was not a thing I could do about it, even with my uber defensive cooldowns. I was being taken down with shear brute force alone". You stupid *********** designers!! :" Is was not a matter of skill". " I was being taken down with shear brute force alone". Which *********** part of this is hard to grasp?! Tank vs DPS: 1. Tank has more defense aka takes less damage. 2. DPS has less defense aka takes more damage. 3. Tank does less overall damage, but more damage gets past defense of DPS. 4. DPS does more overall damage, but less damage gets pass defense of tank! ****, no! There is not stand-off with skill deciding the outcome!! It's a *********** whitewash for DPS!! *** is broken with this game? Nothing! Asolutely *********** nothing!!

 

Wow, I honestly can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not! I'm impressed! But thanks for pointing out my grammar mistake, I have now updated my original post to say "It was not a matter of skill"

Forgive my tone, but right now I am not very impressed with this game. What you have said cannot penetrate the minds of the Thick Skulled - yes those PvPers who think being in a PvP guild fixes all the bugs in a game, or that having a healer behind you is the be all and end all of PvP. Their gravest fear is having their thick skullls smashed open in a 1-on-1 PvP loss. The HORROR! Frankly, they make out about 95% of the tossers who programmed this piece of crap. That is why change is not inevitable. Edited November 5, 2012 by Horing

No its fine Horing. I was hoping that you weren't being sarcastic, I've had enough thick skulled individuals that only seem to be able to think about themselves to last me a life time. Edited November 5, 2012 by Sweeet

Forgive my tone, but right now I am not very impressed with this game. What you have said cannot penetrate the minds of the Thick Skulled - yes those PvPers who think being in a PvP guild fixes all the bugs in a game, or that having a healer behind you is the be all and end all of PvP. Their gravest fear is having their thick skullls smashed open in a 1-on-1 PvP loss. The HORROR! Frankly, they make out about 95% of the tossers who programmed this piece of crap. That is why change is not inevitable.

 

Weren't you just in another thread talking about how you were going to quit because your 49 twinked out PT lost 1v1 to a 42 sin? Sounds like you're talking about yourself bud...