Thank you for not nerfing their hps without also addressing their burst healing at the same time. I know many op healers that thank you right now for understanding the problem of the class and that their burst needs to be fixed.

I'm glad you guys are listening...I just wish you'd have done this with all classes.

Good decision. However, in my opinion, the Scoundrel can stay, where it is. There just has to be a little nerf to AoE-healing - like increasing the CD of Kolto Waves for example.

Good decision. However, in my opinion, the Scoundrel can stay, where it is. There just has to be a little nerf to AoE-healing - like increasing the CD of Kolto Waves for example.

 

That's not "stay where it is" if you nerf something out of it, am I wrong ?

 

Yeah, a longer cd on it could work but they would need to improve solo target healing as well in order to make up for it.

 

But I'm more thinking about a Kolto Probe nerf, since the healing done by it is quite big, even with dps spec. ^^

I was very worried when I saw that changes for Sawbones are being planned because from my experience, the spec is not overperforming, neither in PvE nor PvP.

I agree that the theoretical HPS from AoEs (Kolto Cloud, Kolto Waves) is too strong, but there are only very few boss fights where you have 8 players stacking together, and those are usually the easier fights (Malaphar, Nefra). Keeping up SRMPs on the whole group also results in a high HPS, but is impossible to keep up with no reliable HoT tracker, and any required burst healing causing stacks to fall off.

I wouldn't mind a nerf to Kolto Cloud and Kolto Waves, but the other healing abilities should be left untouched. Scoundrels have been the weakest healing class pretty much since 3.0, and only because of the 5.3 Sorc nerfs are we no longer in last place. Meanwhile Merc healers were left unchanged. I would hate to see us nerfed even more; if anything we need a buff to burst healing, and for PvP some interrupt or knockback immunity like the other healers have, ideally after using our roll.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Jerba

and for PvP some interrupt or knockback immunity like the other healers have, ideally after using our roll.

 

I was thinking about that too. Maybe like Lightning sorcerer ? "Being interrupted grant Unshakable for 4 seconds, can occur only every 15sec". This way it should still allow you to be interrupted, while not being too much punished for it. The only thing that bothered me with Operative Healer is that unlike every other healing class, you're the only one that could get interrupted non-stop. :/

kay cool...now where are those damn Utility changes (im looking at mercs)

kay cool...now where are those damn Utility changes (im looking at mercs)

 

Probably in a world where the priority of class balance changes are right ? *jk*

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

 

Thank you! I would have loved for our overheals to be acknowledged as skewing our HPS numbers higher than they are but thank you for recognizing and showing restraint than breaking us. You guys just earned the extra sub time I'm buying this week!

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

So now you are looking at other things than raw HPS/DPS all of a sudden? Why not when balancing DPS classes and also Sage/Sorcerer healing before?

 

I hope you've finally learned that only bringing DPS/HPS to a level doesn't constitute balance and you have to take all kinds of things into account as well. Back to the drawing board, kids!

Edited August 18, 2017 by Glzmo

While balancing dps around spreadsheet numbers with tweaks for how damaged is delivered has merit, similar changes to healing is generally a much harder sell. I don't have any skin in the ground game pve balance game, but I raided WoW enough to know that the highest HPS classes were often not something you wanted to stack, etc. If you want to balance healers like this, you end up having to homogenize them heavily so that the comparisons are meaningful. The same issues can apply to dps, but are by no means likely to do so.

FeelsGoodMan

Oh thank god, I was getting scared with these changes being posted so late. I can definitely appreciate waiting with nerfing single target hps and AoE healing before addressing its burst healing. That said I do think changes to Medicine are warranted, so I hope to see (good!) changes in 5.5 Edited August 18, 2017 by AdjeYo

\o/ love it - faith in humanity restored for now

FeelsGoodMan

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

That's a shame. So are you only looking at overall play when it comes to certain classes? Because it certainly hasn't been the case with other classes.

So now you are looking at other things than raw HPS/DPS all of a sudden? Why not when balancing DPS classes and also Sage/Sorcerer healing before?

 

I hope you've finally learned that only bringing DPS/HPS to a level doesn't constitute balance and you have to take all kinds of things into account as well. Back to the drawing board, kids!

 

im sure they didnt learn,

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

so nerfing burst heal and aoe heal for sorcs was ok?

We are so overpowering in HPS that we can barely keep a tank alive!

 

And therein lies the reason why you shouldn't be balancing solely off numbers and dummy parses.

Edited August 18, 2017 by DenariusJay

so nerfing burst heal and aoe heal for sorcs was ok?

 

with logic they use sure, by there logic "at target dps" means it over performing need to be nerfed, logic rest world uses it means there performing "at target dps"

Edited August 18, 2017 by Kyuuu

It didn't render the class useless, please if you still think a pure op medicine nerf without giving them a minor boost on burst would be the same as a sage/sorc nerf - get one up to 70 and try healing yourself.

The healing on operative is "a little" more complex than the other 2.

 

So if you want to complain how unfair it is, at least know what you're complaining about.

 

I bet you can't even do 4k hps if you tried.

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

Eric, yall need to look at EHPS/effective EHPS (Absorption+actual heals for Seer/Corruption), not raw HPS output. I'm glad you backed away from changes in 5.4, but it worries me that you're still looking at nerfs. Surely your combat team has a basic understanding of how and why Sawbones/Medicine has such a high HPS potential, but how this doesn't necessarily translate to real-world healing power in actual gameplay.

 

Sawbones/Medicine keep probes on key players at all times - much of the healing done by these probes actually goes to waste, but it's still a necessary part of how the class is played. Two of the seven heals afforded to the class (including the previously mentioned probes) are AoE heals, which do not always benefit all 4-8 players they can affect - again, wasted heals.

 

That leaves us with four single-target heals that usually don't contribute to overhealing (pub names used because I'm a filthy pub):

• Diagnostic Scan Basic energy regen, barely classifies as a heal. It takes two GCDs to heal 1/3rd to 1/2 has much as most of the other heals.
  
• Emergency Medpac is the second-weakest single-target heal, and also contributes indirectly to the overhealing (high-HPS) nature of the class by refreshing a pair of probes, if present. It is cheap and instant, but does require an Upper Hand to use (but at least it does refund it once per ten seconds with the Lv44 passive).
  
• Underworld Medicine is the strongest up-front single-target heal, but also the slowest - with 1362 (12.30%) Alacrity, it takes me 1.78 seconds to cast, more than a full GCD, and easily interruptible in both PvP and PvE.
  
• Kolto Pack is the strongest overall single-target heal, but roughly a third of that is spread out over 9 seconds (and again, being a HoT, easily contributes to a deceptively high HPS while potentially not adding to EHPS). This move also takes a full GCD to cast, and requires/consumes an Upper Hand.

 

TL;DR: Sawbones has five abilties (Kolto Waves, Kolto Cloud, Kolto Probe [plus Emergency Medpac's refresher on two stacks], and Kolto Pack) that contribute to overhealing, which isn't necessarily beneficial to the group most of the time. Sure, in a burn phase, all these HoTs and AoEs come in handy - but if you straight nerf the spec like you did Seer with a flat reduction in healing capability to try to bring them down to an HPS target that really only matters during said burn phases (or when groups are otherwise all taking sustained damge), you're going to cripple the class's capabilities during normal healing phases. Actual effective heals with the class can be as low as 60-70 percent - we need to be able to do (example numbers) 13k HPS just to be able to maintain 10k EHPS overall. If you bring us down to (again, example) a 10k HPS target and we start healing for 7-8k EHPS for most of most fights, nobody is going to take Sawbones anymore, because it just wouldn't be able to keep up with Combat Medics and Seers with a higher percentage of effective heals doing 9-9.5k.

 

Okay, so not that much of a TL;DR. But still. Please look at actual effective healing, and not 'potential' output if everybody in the group is constantly taking damage.

However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive.

 

I bet the changes will make this class FOTM for PVP. Nerfing the HPS slightly for PVE while simultaneously given it a better burst, is going to make everyone and their sister flock to this class. And those who currently excel will only shine the brighter. And then people will complain and the class will be over-nerfred sometime next year

We are so overpowering in HPS that we can barely keep a tank alive!

 

And therein lies the reason why you shouldn't be balancing solely off numbers and dummy parses.

 

Keeping tanks alive or hitting dps checks is unimportant dont you understand? As long as you meet their super secret dps/hps targets all will be good and there will be peace and happiness. Little things like all classes being able to do all content is unimportant.