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Here's Where We, The Community, Went Wrong


MilesTheFox

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That's a little strong. We all are here for the same reason I assume...we want the game to succeed. Blaming US (the community) for the games shortcomings is just ignorant of reality. We all, even the ones who have quit, gave the game a shot.

 

Being critical of what we don't like is being honest, not hypocritical. WE know why people have left. Some of us have been here from before the start even. We know what people would like. We know what the complaints are. We play this game and are active with others who do and did. We hear the frustration in VoIP and guild chats. I don't post to be a jackhole, I post because I DO care. I care more about the people who have quit, or are planning to quit, than Bioware seems to.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Bioware absolutely must listen to those who give criticism in the proper fashion. I don't believe they have been listening in the way that an MMO dev should. Maybe EA isn't letting them. Maybe they're overwhelmed with this being their first MMO. I don't know, and it's unlikely we'll ever get 100% of the facts, because publishers put a positive spin on everything they possibly can for their precious stockholders.

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Dear sir, you are renting a product, not buying a service. You have a right to rent it and you have a right not to rent it. It is their product, and in the end they decide what to do with it, not you. You can ofcourse suggest changes and if the changes are good, and they are smart, they will implement it.

 

No, it tells that 4 out of 5 persons have quit. Why they quit is a much more complex question.

 

Thank you for the kind tone. We are most certainly paying for a service though. Your assumption that "good suggestions" will be implemented is pure speculation on your part though.

 

Maybe you don't know "why", but some of us do know why people have left.

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That's a little strong. We all are here for the same reason I assume...we want the game to succeed. Blaming US (the community) for the games shortcomings is just ignorant of reality. We all, even the ones who have quit, gave the game a shot.

 

Being critical of what we don't like is being honest, not hypocritical. WE know why people have left. Some of us have been here from before the start even. We know what people would like. We know what the complaints are. We play this game and are active with others who do and did. We hear the frustration in VoIP and guild chats. I don't post to be a jackhole, I post because I DO care. I care more about the people who have quit, or are planning to quit, than Bioware seems to.

 

You are in the minority then, when it comes to the forum-goers early in the life of an MMO. Maybe you forget the vehement hate-speech against the game, and vile poison that was thrown about these forums early on, the bile that was spewed from the keyboards of so so many. I haven't forgotten it. I've seen it happen in game after game, from WAR to Aion to Rift to SW:TOR and to GW2. The MMO-hungry mob is never going to be pleased with a game, and they think that if they are not pleased, that game must be KILLED WITH FIRE.

 

There was a lot of hate directed at this game early in its life, and that hampered the growth that could have happened.

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Thank you for the kind tone. We are most certainly paying for a service though. Your assumption that "good suggestions" will be implemented is pure speculation on your part though.

 

Maybe you don't know "why", but some of us do know why people have left.

 

I wish I was as clairvoyant as those other people but unfortunately I am not. I still need to use those old fashioned ways to figure out what people want.

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There was a lot of hate directed at this game early in its life, and that hampered the growth that could have happened.

That's pure speculation, not fact.

 

I believe that a GOOD GAME will sell itself. A few angry kids, even a few thousand, can't prevent a good game from succeeding.

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I wish I was as clairvoyant as those other people but unfortunately I am not. I still need to use those old fashioned ways to figure out what people want.

 

Meaning what? I didn't ignore people in VoIP or my guild complaining about lag, performance, lack of PvP, lack of any decent crafting, lack of content, lack of communication, space, frustration with not being able to run Ops due to lockout timers, lack of variety in WZ's...the end game is lacking in SWTOR for many. 1-50 I think they've done a GREAT job!!! It's the post 50 stuff I feel they've let people down on.

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Meaning what? I didn't ignore people in VoIP or my guild complaining about lag, performance, lack of PvP, lack of any decent crafting, lack of content, lack of communication, space, frustration with not being able to run Ops due to lockout timers, lack of variety in WZ's...the end game is lacking in SWTOR for many. 1-50 I think they've done a GREAT job!!! It's the post 50 stuff I feel they've let people down on.

 

You may think you know why some people have left, but that is quite far from factually knowing why all the 80% of the game buyers have left.

 

Why are you complaining about ops lockout timers anyway? So far I have seen those in every game I have tried, wow included.

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My point was that many of the people who were on these forums complaining about this game early on have been on the forums in OTHER games complaining about THEM early on. They play a new MMO when it first comes out, gobble up all the content, then spit it back into the Developer's faces with a "WAAAA ME WANT MORE" attitude that cannot ever be satisfied. They then proceed to bash on the game for the foreseeable future, until a new game comes along to grab their short attention span, and the process repeats itself.

 

There are a LOT of players like that, and many don't even realize that they are doing it.

 

i agree,,and worse , the games are often designed, simply to keep this kind of players in a game for a certain amount of hours,,,not to give a normal player X hours of fun

 

again,,they spend 6 YEARS on making a game,,hardcores go through it in a month

 

why do the devs still listen to them at all? theyre not normal consumers

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You may think you know why some people have left, but that is quite far from factually knowing why all the 80% of the game buyers have left.

 

Why are you complaining about ops lockout timers anyway? So far I have seen those in every game I have tried, wow included.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest I know why 80% of the buyers have left. I said I know why SOME have claimed to have left.

 

As for lockout timers...lockout timers in this game are a horrible idea! They prevent so many opportunities to do things with other people. I don't care about W0W or what W0W does - I've never played it, I play this game. In THIS game, they prevent me from helping a ton of people I otherwise would LOVE to help. They work against building a good community IMO. I'm fine with loot only dropping once per week...but not lockout timers. I wish they'd have tied a weekly mission for gear to the Ops more than loot drops. That would have allowed them better control over gearing and allowed us to run Ops without lockout timers. I hate seeing people get frustrated when trying to PuG an Ops when I know I could help them. I also hate telling the 9th or 10th person in our guild that we're full and they'll have to wait until next week to run one. I really just see nothing positive they contribute.

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WoW is the number one MMO in history, it's the one most people have played and it's only normal that it would be used for a comparison model.

 

yup,,if i say im a fast runner who will u compare me to? urself i u think u can beat me, but usually

 

the world champion

 

give me a GOOD MMO, that actually WORKS and ill be very happy again

 

oddly enough the game with fewest bugs just closed down

 

R.I.P. CoX,,u will be missed:(

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I'm fine with loot only dropping once per week...but not lockout timers. I wish they'd have tied a weekly mission for gear to the Ops more than loot drops. That would have allowed them better control over gearing and allowed us to run Ops without lockout timers. I hate seeing people get frustrated when trying to PuG an Ops when I know I could help them. I also hate telling the 9th or 10th person in our guild that we're full and they'll have to wait until next week to run one. I really just see nothing positive they contribute.

 

That is a great idea by the way :)

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That's pure opinion, not fact.

 

I believe that a GOOD GAME will sell itself. A few angry kids, even a few thousand, can't prevent a good game from succeeding.

 

fixed that for ya.

 

A few angry kids, even a few thousand, will not prevent a game's success, but they will hamper it.

 

How can you really say this game hasn't succeeded? I count it as a success as long as the servers are still active.

 

edit: your beliefs are also pure speculation/opinion.

Edited by tiennen
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fixed that for ya.

 

A few angry kids, even a few thousand, will not prevent a game's success, but they will hamper it.

 

How can you really say this game hasn't succeeded? I count it as a success as long as the servers are still active.

 

edit: your beliefs are also pure speculation/opinion.

 

They may. But again, you're guessing.

 

And...you're judging "success" by your own opinion again. I think EA's opinion is the only one that matters for this game. I don't believe "successful" games go F2P, nor do I feel losing 80% of your customers in under 9 months would be considered a success for any long term MMO.

 

You're the one who stated your opinion/speculation as fact, not me. I try to avoid that...I'm certain I fail on occasion, but I have no issue admitting it.

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They may. But again, you're guessing.

 

And...you're judging "success" by your own opinion again. I think EA's opinion is the only one that matters for this game. I don't believe "successful" games go F2P, nor do I feel losing 80% of your customers in under 9 months would be considered a success for any long term MMO.

 

You're the one who stated your opinion/speculation as fact, not me. I try to avoid that...I'm certain I fail on occasion, but I have no issue admitting it.

 

Yes, I even stated that it was my opinion that it has not failed yet.

 

I mean really, "success" is purely subjective. You have been delivering opinions as fact throughout this thread. They may not be YOUR opinions, but they are opinions, nonetheless. Calling someone out for stating their opinion, and then giving your opinion as a fact is complete hypocrisy.

 

Never once have I stated that my opinions are a FACT.

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Never once have I stated that my opinions are a FACT.

Not once? Granted, you didn't say "THESE R FACTS", but here are a few examples of where I feel you've stated your opinion as fact:

The MMO-hungry mob is never going to be pleased with a game

 

There was a lot of hate directed at this game early in its life, and that hampered the growth that could have happened.

This happens with EVERY MMO. Has happened with EVERY MMO in the past 10 years.

A few angry kids, even a few thousand, will not prevent a game's success, but they will hamper it.

Back on topic...

 

I will not take ANY blame for the state the game is in. I will not take ANY responsibility for running players off. I would like nothing more than for SWTOR to be a MASSIVE success (to EA, not you) and avoid F2P. I continue to do more than my part to try to keep players and I resent being told I share ANY responsibility for a games inability to retain them.

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Not once? Granted, you didn't say "THESE R FACTS", but here are a few examples of where I feel you've stated your opinion as fact:

 

 

 

Back on topic...

 

I will not take ANY blame for the state the game is in. I will not take ANY responsibility for running players off. I would like nothing more than for SWTOR to be a MASSIVE success (to EA, not you) and avoid F2P. I continue to do more than my part to try to keep players and I resent being told I share ANY responsibility for a games inability to retain them.

 

Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

 

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

 

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.

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Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

 

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

 

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.

I heard WoW is implementing F2P or already has, idk, it's been over three years since I've played WoW or even logged into my battle.net account.

 

The reason why more and more games are going F2P is because they have reliable data that they can make more money. Now it may not make any sense because it is free to play, but the microtransactions in most F2P's have shown to be more lucrative than subscriptions. This is why there is talk of next gen consoles going the way of microtransactions and games that you never actually purchase or own, but rather download and pay to play and/or F2P w/ microtransactions.

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That's a little strong. We all are here for the same reason I assume...we want the game to succeed. Blaming US (the community) for the games shortcomings is just ignorant of reality. We all, even the ones who have quit, gave the game a shot.

 

Being critical of what we don't like is being honest, not hypocritical. WE know why people have left. Some of us have been here from before the start even. We know what people would like. We know what the complaints are. We play this game and are active with others who do and did. We hear the frustration in VoIP and guild chats. I don't post to be a jackhole, I post because I DO care. I care more about the people who have quit, or are planning to quit, than Bioware seems to.

 

 

 

Indeed shooting the messengaer might be an old tradition, but it never has and never will be a helpful one.

 

Fixing the issues is the helpful course of action.

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Why is going F2P always looks at like "Oh, this game failed hard". It will most likely bring a much larger audience to the game, and bring in more revenue as a F2P game than it would as a sub-based game. Still, this is purely speculation, but it can be seen in the model of DCUO, and many of other F2P games that sport this model. DDO is another good example of a F2P game that is still going strong, not to mention all of the Korean MMO's out there (Eden Eternal, Aika Online, etc.)

 

Contrary to popular belief, an MMO going F2P doesn't necessarily mean it "failed". EA is probably just realizing that the age of sub-based MMO's is dead.

 

Once again, this is all my opinion. I guess I need to specifically state whether or not something is an opinion or not, since you can't tell the difference.

 

 

 

I've not played DCUO, but DDO is often used as an example of the wonders of F2P, but DDO is a strange beast, it was never a MMORPG in the traditional sense, it always seemed designed as a F2P buy as you play Multiplayer-cashshop driven multi-player DnD game.

 

Which was probably why it tanked as a subscription MMO, when it went F2P it basically had 3 players and one of the Devs dogs playing it.

 

LOTRO is a much better example, but as it showed, athough F2P brings in more active accounts, unless those active accounts are spending an average of $15 a month then the numbers are misleading.

 

And as LOTRO shows (and CoH for that matter), F2P numbers tail off too.

 

 

 

 

SWTOR is bound to get a surge in active accounts with F2P, but whether those accounts will be spending an average of $15 a month and whether they'll still be around 12 months after F2P is a different kettle of fish.

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I get so tired of people complaining every single update.

 

At least this publisher decides to update the game at all. I've been in MMORPG's where the company swears up and down for new content, and when it does finally come out, it's full of holes, highly exploitable glitches, and packed full of excuses as to why. (They once blamed China's different gaming culture. lolnope.)

 

Compared to all the stuff I've seen happen in the past, BioWare and EA have done a brilliant job here, considering how young this game is, and what they had to work with.

 

People who complain and throw tantrums every time there's an update, or EA doesn't release something they said would come out "LATER" (which means, later and not "in the next patch",) need to keep it to themselves, or just uninstall the game and leave. I'm glad there's a blacklisting funciton, because all the moaning and whining just drags down the mood in general and makes the game less fun to play.

 

I do personally believe it's more the fault of the players than the company.

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The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

 

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

 

WAR

Rift

Aion

GW2 -- very recent

 

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

 

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)

 

u like the game..fine,,but the majority of subs didnt leave because they were happy

 

were all in the same bus, we all paid the same, the bus should go to where the majority wants it to go

 

and that is=casual players and easy gameplay,,anything else should be optional

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I get so tired of people complaining every single update.

 

At least this publisher decides to update the game at all. I've been in MMORPG's where the company swears up and down for new content, and when it does finally come out, it's full of holes, highly exploitable glitches, and packed full of excuses as to why. (They once blamed China's different gaming culture. lolnope.)

 

Compared to all the stuff I've seen happen in the past, BioWare and EA have done a brilliant job here, considering how young this game is, and what they had to work with.

 

People who complain and throw tantrums every time there's an update, or EA doesn't release something they said would come out "LATER" (which means, later and not "in the next patch",) need to keep it to themselves, or just uninstall the game and leave. I'm glad there's a blacklisting funciton, because all the moaning and whining just drags down the mood in general and makes the game less fun to play.

 

I do personally believe it's more the fault of the players than the company.

 

6 years development? 200 mio$? EA and BWs experience? and the SW brand on it was a sure box sale

 

they deliver a small, uncomplete game, (good VOs though),,yes im disappointed, and so where lots of others

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Believing it would compete with World of Warcraft.

They were partly responsible for this as well.

 

I just don't understand the player-base's fascination with a mythical 'WoW-killer', though.

A whole lot of the WoW hate is coming from people whom I have no doubt used to play and enjoy WoW, but somewhere along the line they decided that it became 'uncool', and so now they hate it because that must, by default, be the 'cool' thing to do.

 

I just don't see why a player is so worried about what other people are playing and enjoying.

 

Bioware was encouraging the same behavior ("SWTOR is going to kill WoW! I play WoW! I had better jump over to SWTOR now so I can look cool when I badmouth WoW as it starts to die!").

 

Bioware was wrong, and the behavior is still stupid.

 

A stellar RPG DOES NOT equal a stellar MMO.

Yeah, but this isn't news.

 

Stellar MMO = Stellar MMO.

Now you can get into a debate about what makes a stellar MMO, but a few things that might make the list are all things that the Star Wars universe has.

The rest are brought in by the game developers and writers.

 

A stellar RPG may not make for a stellar MMO, but there is nothing that says that a setting that was used in a stellar RPG couldn't also be used in a stellar MMO.

They are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

We should not be allowed to complain about a lack of content for the entire first year.

 

Not be allowed? That's a little bit totalitarian, isn't it?

 

Besides, there is a fine line, sometimes, between a complaint and a suggestion.

Doesn't every suggestion basically equate to a complaint? Why would I suggest that something should be included unless I was complaining about it being excluded? Why would I suggest that something be changed unless I had a complaint about how it worked now?

 

It would be nice if people would understand that things take time to create and all of that, but what about features and tools that were absent at launch?

I mean, I think that people complaining about there not being a hundred end-game operations at launch is silly, but people complaining about the lack of a 'barber shop/tailor'? People complaining that the species list was a little lacking, or the even the customization of the species that are in the game? Not so much.

 

Miralukans can't grow facial hair? Cyborgs can only have facial hair if they select one of the few cybernetic options that includes a predetermined facial hair design?

 

Even the legacy stuff... Only trooper humans can have tattoos? Only BH humans can paint/tattoo their faces? Why not other humans?

And if it is a class thing, why not other species within those same classes?

 

Those all qualify as lack of content, too.

 

And anyway, we are fast approaching that year. Pretend that no one has complained about anything so far. Where are we now?

Are the things that people are complaining about now going to be gone in three months?

 

This game is not about having one character and getting better and better and better gear (that's actually what I detest most about MMO's). No, the Legacy system was built around re-rolling once you hit 50, to experience another story, and the Legacy system gave you options to have a small leg-up with a new character.

 

And this is a ridiculous statement.

 

Do you think that they built the game so that every player would roll 8 characters and then quit?

Of course not. They built it as an MMO with the hopes that everyone would have their favorite characters that they would come back to, even after they had already hit 50.

 

If it was only about the class story, then why did they include non-story content? Why include repeatable endgame content that wouldn't be run until the class stories were completed, anyway?

Edited by Mithros
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The poison and bile that was spit out of many of our forum-goers early on in this game's life was, sadly, expected for me.

 

I think that many of them may have been on the forums in many other games, sptting their poison there before they left:

 

WAR

Rift

Aion

GW2 -- very recent

 

It has become common for forums to be crowded with people "unhappy" with their playing experience within a month of getting the game, and many of them are former WoW players who expected the game to be as polished as their beloved Panda-Land (not always the case, I started with WoW, but have never really complained about any other MMOs)

 

I believe it wasn't the "mediocrity" of this game that "ruined" it, it was the ignorant, entitled players themselves. This game is great. It is like KOTOR 3, with multiplayer. There are a lot of people that would argue with me, but it is my strong opinion that SW:TOR is one of the best MMO's out there right now, even surpassing WoW in qaulity of gameplay. (I went back to WoW for a couple days, it was boring and the gameplay was absolutely stale, questing made me want to gouge out my eyes)

 

I agree with this 100%, about the over entitled little snowflakes looking for something to whine about and the high enjoyment factor of TOR.

I went back to WoW for about 2 weeks in July (my wife talked me into leveling a character with her)...I have to admit the experience was actually painful, I dreaded logging on. How I spent so many years playing that game I don't know! TOR is vastly superior in every department other than system performance (I don't have a great gaming PC), that said I'm not massivly into raiding and that is one of WoW strong points.

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