I think you mean Allegiance, and I'll have to pick that one up. I still think it's pretty effed up that someone killed off a character he created without his ok.

yeah, that's what I meant. Man should not type before his first cup of coffee

I would pay thousands of dollars to see The Entire EU(Novels and books) just get a reset a new clean slate.

That, and not a whole lot of reconstruction. I'd be quite satisfied to leave it at the G-Canon of ROTJ and never pick up afterward. Nice and open-ended.

I'd like to see the entirety of Star Wars reset.

It was a great idea, but Lucas is a terrible writer and there were a lot of stupid aspects of the lore right out of the gate.

I think a literal reboot of the entire universe could be really cool.

Take the original idea and make it more brutal.

They seem to be taking it dark now, but they're going emo dark.

They need to go black/death metal dark.

Cannibal wookies and Sith who tear out spinal cords with the Force.

I'd like to see the entirety of Star Wars reset.

 

It was a great idea, but Lucas is a terrible writer and there were a lot of stupid aspects of the lore right out of the gate.

 

I think a literal reboot of the entire universe could be really cool.

 

Take the original idea and make it more brutal.

 

They seem to be taking it dark now, but they're going emo dark.

 

They need to go black/death metal dark.

 

Cannibal wookies and Sith who tear out spinal cords with the Force.

No. Just...no. I'm sick of people thinking franchises need to be "darker and edgier" to be better. Because that worked out so well for Enterprise and Stargate Universe, didn't it?

No. Just...no. I'm sick of people thinking franchises need to be "darker and edgier" to be better. Because that worked out so well for Enterprise and Stargate Universe, didn't it?

Becoming edgier isn't what made Stargate Universe and Enterprise bad, it was boring writing and stories.

Need we bring up The Dark Knight for an example of going darker and becoming FAR SUPERIOR. That's a movie that is, at it's heart, a comic book movie that film classes are already using in analysis projects because of how deep the actual societal commentary runs through the movie.

Or Battlestar Galactica.

Or Song of Ice and Fire (not a remake, but it's "fantasy for adults" with themes and content that I, as a 28 year old, find interesting. Dragonglance and LotR were awesome when I was 13, but at 28 I doubt I could make it through LotR without getting bored.)

I'm not asking for edgy.

I'm asking for brutality.

Yeah, that's the other thing that pissed me off: the end of the New Republic. It's like they're trying to invalidate the whole friggin' point of the classic trilogy's triumph over the Empire.

To tell you the truth, I saw that coming along time ago. Heh.

Hell, you can even see it in SWTOR; half the Senators would make great Sith Lords if they had force powers, and a democracy is relatively easy to pick apart if you can control or manipulate certain interest groups.

It wasn't the Republic that triumphed over the Empire, it was the Rebel Alliance. It started going downhill once they turned themselves into the New Republic, and started "electing" their leaders. In whole parts of the EU, the enemy wasn't just the Empire, an alien menace, or outlaws, but the Senate itself. There is a reason an intelligent being like Thrawn remained loyal to the ideals of the Empire.

I remember in buying my first Star Wars Book in 1993- Heir to the Empire. I bought it in a used bookstore on a rainy day when I had nothing better to do. I had liked the movies; my parents had recorded them during a free week of HBO, and I had played the videos until you had to mess with the tracking to get the tape to feed without white static at the bottom of the screen. Even our copy of Return of the Jedi wasn't complete...it didn't start until Threepio and Artoo were standing outsid of Jabba's Palace. I loved these stories, so I thought that I'd give these books a chance.

 

I was immediately hooked. I bought the rest of the trilogy two days later. These books opened a universe of endless possibilities, wonder, and excitement. I bought each one as they hit shelves. Some were fantastic- I, Jedi the X-wing Series, Hand of Thrawn, The Courtship of Princess Leia; some were good at the time, but have mellowed as time has gone on, Young Jedi Knights, Darksaber. Some were downright wierd, The Crystal Star. But they all had one thing in common.

 

They were safe with happy endings. At the end of the day Good fights evil and conquers. Our heroes win. I could put up with the horrible books like the Black Fleet Crysis, and the not so bad but lukewarm Corellia Trilogy because in the end I knew what to expect of the characters.

 

Then came the New Jedi Order. I should have know what to expect when Chewbacca died. All bets were off, and no one was safe, nor was I guranteed a happy ending. The literature of my teenage years had been thrust into the uncertainty of more realistic characters with more realistic fatalistic ends. Still I kept reading.

 

I wish I could forget Dark Nest...I hated every bit of it.

 

Anakin- dead. Mara- dead. Jacen, darkside...then dead. The Solos lose two of their three children and Han his best Friend; Luke his wife, Ben his mother, and While I'm still in the middle of Fate of the Jedi...I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Here's the thing: It's all so incredibly dark. It's been hopeless ever since NJO, and I don't think that I entirely like this direction. Don't get me wrong...I like intrigue, uncertainty, in the trenches literature...but I never thought that Star Wars would go there. Now it's been more than a decade of loss, and a lasting depression over the entire GFFA. It's all turned into one, big, existential nightmare. I miss the days of Han, Chewie, Luke and the Princess running across the galaxy, against all odds but me (the reader) knowing that in the end...it would all be alright.

 

Is this antebellum mentality wrong?

It depends. In reality look at the prequels. 99% of the characters you learn about die. Vader was left in pieces and on fire by Obi Wan Kenobi. Anakin killed younglings and many Jedi for instance.

i know many people love thrawn... i just dont like the idea of continueing beyond ROTJ. to me it all ends there.

but EU happening before TPM. now that i LOVE. especially everything in the time around the old republic. thought about buying some of the books. are they any good? or should i stay away from them if i think the post-ROTJ destroys star wars?

Becoming edgier isn't what made Stargate Universe and Enterprise bad, it was boring writing and stories.

 

Need we bring up The Dark Knight for an example of going darker and becoming FAR SUPERIOR. That's a movie that is, at it's heart, a comic book movie that film classes are already using in analysis projects because of how deep the actual societal commentary runs through the movie.

 

Or Battlestar Galactica.

 

Or Song of Ice and Fire (not a remake, but it's "fantasy for adults" with themes and content that I, as a 28 year old, find interesting. Dragonglance and LotR were awesome when I was 13, but at 28 I doubt I could make it through LotR without getting bored.)

 

I'm not asking for edgy.

 

I'm asking for brutality.

The Dark Knight was no darker or edgier than Tim Burton's version, just different. Battlestar Galactica was as dark as 70s television would allow, so that's hardly a valid comparison. And Ice and Fire isn't a reboot.

And making it more brutal and violent completely misses the point of what the original saga was about. Star Wars was about iconic heroes and dastardly villains in a classic fight between good and evil, not about how creatively you can kill your opponent with The Force. You want killer finishing moves, go play a video game.

The Dark Knight was no darker or edgier than Tim Burton's version, just different. Battlestar Galactica was as dark as 70s television would allow, so that's hardly a valid comparison. And Ice and Fire isn't a reboot.

 

And making it more brutal and violent completely misses the point of what the original saga was about. Star Wars was about iconic heroes and dastardly villains in a classic fight between good and evil, not about how creatively you can kill your opponent with The Force. You want killer finishing moves, go play a video game.

And, as I've said, I think the original trilogy is the worst part of Star Wars. It laid the ground work for some awesome games (Kotor 1 and 2) and many awesome EU books, but the original trilogy is derivative and boring.

Good guy fights bad guy, good guy has set back, good guy eventually wins and proves good triumphs over evil. *gag*

Do we really need ANOTHER universe that tells a story that is, at this point, THOUSANDS of years old?

And even Tim Burton's batman was SIGNIFICANTLY darker than the source material at the time. Remember how Batman began?

He went from a guy in a bat suit who was ridiculous to one of the deepest and most beloved comic book characters in the world and much of that is because it kept getting darker with every reboot.

Star Wars is excellent source material that, so far, has not been used to make anything truly awesome.

I want to see a Star Wars film where I walk out of it and can't stop thinking about it.

I want a Star Wars film that affects me as deeply as A Serbian Film did.

I want something for a 28 year old.

And, as I've said, I think the original trilogy is the worst part of Star Wars. It laid the ground work for some awesome games (Kotor 1 and 2) and many awesome EU books, but the original trilogy is derivative and boring.

I'm sorry, I stopped reading after this. I don't think I can even talk to you anymore. Good day, sir.

I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR!

And, as I've said, I think the original trilogy is the worst part of Star Wars. It laid the ground work for some awesome games (Kotor 1 and 2) and many awesome EU books, but the original trilogy is derivative and boring.

 

Good guy fights bad guy, good guy has set back, good guy eventually wins and proves good triumphs over evil. *gag*

 

Do we really need ANOTHER universe that tells a story that is, at this point, THOUSANDS of years old?

 

And even Tim Burton's batman was SIGNIFICANTLY darker than the source material at the time. Remember how Batman began?

 

He went from a guy in a bat suit who was ridiculous to one of the deepest and most beloved comic book characters in the world and much of that is because it kept getting darker with every reboot.

 

Star Wars is excellent source material that, so far, has not been used to make anything truly awesome.

 

I want to see a Star Wars film where I walk out of it and can't stop thinking about it.

 

I want a Star Wars film that affects me as deeply as A Serbian Film did.

 

I want something for a 28 year old.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jandjproductionscrew#p/c/5B4AD0AC8B4FFAEA/1/nj-Zo32TIDo

there you go. this is the trailer. dark and "grown-up"

I love the Expanded Universe novels. Most are well written and keep me coming back to re-read them. Crystal Star is an exception. I thought that was a poor book. Things really picked up with the New Jedi Order series. It was long but it was great. I never saw the death of Chewie coming. Anakin's death made me sad. Tahiri's struggles with both her time as a Vong prisoner and then Anakin's death kept one wondering if she would be alright or snap and go insane.

Mara's death in the Legacy series was a total shocker. But that was the point. I love the fact that the EU has taken a darker turn. I hated that Mara Jade was killed and not Leia but it had the desired effect. And the Fate series is even better. Will Luke die fighting Abeloth? What happens between Vestara and Ben? Does he find out she gave up on turning Jedi? Do they fall in love? What happens to the Lost Tribe? I can barely contain my excitement for final book to be released.

In short this all comes down to personal opinion. For me the EU has been awesome. Yes there have been some sub-par books, but that has to be expected. The authors do a great job and I look forward to future stories.

I would also like to mention that in addition to Crystal Star the Death Troopers novel was bad. It was an even worse content addition to the Star Wars Galaxies MMO. What was LA thinking with that one?

I would also like to mention that in addition to Crystal Star the Death Troopers novel was bad. It was an even worse content addition to the Star Wars Galaxies MMO. What was LA thinking with that one?

"Hurrr...zombies r kewl."

I remember in buying my first Star Wars Book in 1993- Heir to the Empire. I bought it in a used bookstore on a rainy day when I had nothing better to do. I had liked the movies; my parents had recorded them during a free week of HBO, and I had played the videos until you had to mess with the tracking to get the tape to feed without white static at the bottom of the screen. Even our copy of Return of the Jedi wasn't complete...it didn't start until Threepio and Artoo were standing outsid of Jabba's Palace. I loved these stories, so I thought that I'd give these books a chance.

 

I was immediately hooked. I bought the rest of the trilogy two days later. These books opened a universe of endless possibilities, wonder, and excitement. I bought each one as they hit shelves. Some were fantastic- I, Jedi the X-wing Series, Hand of Thrawn, The Courtship of Princess Leia; some were good at the time, but have mellowed as time has gone on, Young Jedi Knights, Darksaber. Some were downright wierd, The Crystal Star. But they all had one thing in common.

 

They were safe with happy endings. At the end of the day Good fights evil and conquers. Our heroes win. I could put up with the horrible books like the Black Fleet Crysis, and the not so bad but lukewarm Corellia Trilogy because in the end I knew what to expect of the characters.

 

Then came the New Jedi Order. I should have know what to expect when Chewbacca died. All bets were off, and no one was safe, nor was I guranteed a happy ending. The literature of my teenage years had been thrust into the uncertainty of more realistic characters with more realistic fatalistic ends. Still I kept reading.

 

I wish I could forget Dark Nest...I hated every bit of it.

 

Anakin- dead. Mara- dead. Jacen, darkside...then dead. The Solos lose two of their three children and Han his best Friend; Luke his wife, Ben his mother, and While I'm still in the middle of Fate of the Jedi...I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Here's the thing: It's all so incredibly dark. It's been hopeless ever since NJO, and I don't think that I entirely like this direction. Don't get me wrong...I like intrigue, uncertainty, in the trenches literature...but I never thought that Star Wars would go there. Now it's been more than a decade of loss, and a lasting depression over the entire GFFA. It's all turned into one, big, existential nightmare. I miss the days of Han, Chewie, Luke and the Princess running across the galaxy, against all odds but me (the reader) knowing that in the end...it would all be alright.

 

Is this antebellum mentality wrong?

nope I perfer the EU these days, the narritive is better, as opposed to the new republic era which was disgustlingly predictable

And, as I've said, I think the original trilogy is the worst part of Star Wars. It laid the ground work for some awesome games (Kotor 1 and 2) and many awesome EU books, but the original trilogy is derivative and boring.

 

Good guy fights bad guy, good guy has set back, good guy eventually wins and proves good triumphs over evil. *gag*

 

Do we really need ANOTHER universe that tells a story that is, at this point, THOUSANDS of years old?

 

And even Tim Burton's batman was SIGNIFICANTLY darker than the source material at the time. Remember how Batman began?

 

He went from a guy in a bat suit who was ridiculous to one of the deepest and most beloved comic book characters in the world and much of that is because it kept getting darker with every reboot.

 

Star Wars is excellent source material that, so far, has not been used to make anything truly awesome.

 

I want to see a Star Wars film where I walk out of it and can't stop thinking about it.

 

I want a Star Wars film that affects me as deeply as A Serbian Film did.

 

I want something for a 28 year old.

Star wars is not for you then. Star wars is all about the good guy winning at the end. Even if it takes several centuries. Even KOTOR 1 and 2 is about the good guy winning. Sure you can choose to be dark sided, but the canon lore is the good guys win.

I find all 3 original movies to be dark an edgy enough.

I haven't read all the EU novels, even the classics and favorites like the Thrawn Trilogy and the Xwing series.

I do read the comics extensively. I like most of it and some of them are a hit and a miss.

I am however reading the NJO series and I'm liking the aspect of total defeat at the door step.

I love the Expanded Universe novels. Most are well written and keep me coming back to re-read them. Crystal Star is an exception. I thought that was a poor book. Things really picked up with the New Jedi Order series. It was long but it was great. I never saw the death of Chewie coming. Anakin's death made me sad. Tahiri's struggles with both her time as a Vong prisoner and then Anakin's death kept one wondering if she would be alright or snap and go insane.

 

Mara's death in the Legacy series was a total shocker. But that was the point. I love the fact that the EU has taken a darker turn. I hated that Mara Jade was killed and not Leia but it had the desired effect. And the Fate series is even better. Will Luke die fighting Abeloth? What happens between Vestara and Ben? Does he find out she gave up on turning Jedi? Do they fall in love? What happens to the Lost Tribe? I can barely contain my excitement for final book to be released.

 

In short this all comes down to personal opinion. For me the EU has been awesome. Yes there have been some sub-par books, but that has to be expected. The authors do a great job and I look forward to future stories.

 

I would also like to mention that in addition to Crystal Star the Death Troopers novel was bad. It was an even worse content addition to the Star Wars Galaxies MMO. What was LA thinking with that one?

don't get me wrong, I like edgy unpredictable seat of the pants stories; but Star Wars to me has always been about popcorn. Right now the EU is almost fatalistic and hopeless. I think a reset is needed.

don't get me wrong, I like edgy unpredictable seat of the pants stories; but Star Wars to me has always been about popcorn. Right now the EU is almost fatalistic and hopeless. I think a reset is needed.

Word. I don't care that the New Republic stories were predictable. They were entertaining. I like it when the good guy wins, and I'm tired of this hollow-victory-cuz-everyone-dies crap.

Star wars is not for you then. Star wars is all about the good guy winning at the end. Even if it takes several centuries. Even KOTOR 1 and 2 is about the good guy winning. Sure you can choose to be dark sided, but the canon lore is the good guys win.

 

I find all 3 original movies to be dark an edgy enough.

 

I haven't read all the EU novels, even the classics and favorites like the Thrawn Trilogy and the Xwing series.

 

I do read the comics extensively. I like most of it and some of them are a hit and a miss.

 

I am however reading the NJO series and I'm liking the aspect of total defeat at the door step.

That's the thing though, Kotor and TOR have given me the ability to make MY Star Wars.

It's Star Wars, but it's my twisted vision of it.

I don't have to care about what Lucas dictates as canon, I don't have to follow it.

I have an image of Star Wars in my head. I believe if I could put this image into film, it would be accepted and liked. Maybe not by hardcore SW canon fans, but by others like me and by people who probably didn't like sci-fi or SW that much to begin with.

To me, canonical Star Wars is like a Raffi record. It's for kids, and as a kid I loved SW and I loved Raffi.

That love of Raffi and SW turned me into a life long music and sci-fi fan, but I'm 28, I don't listen to Raffi, I listen to Anaal Nathrakh and Emperor, but would I love to hear Raffi try to put out a black metal album? Definitely.

Would I love to see Star Wars turned into something darker and more brutal? **** yes I would.

Would I love to see a do-over and Anakin's fall from grace? **** yes. Lucas made his fall from grace a little too "My Chemical Romance", I'd prefer to see it done a little more "Circle of Dead Children".

Yes, I'm a music nerd and use music for a lot of analogies.

I like it when the good guy wins, and I'm tired of this hollow-victory-cuz-everyone-dies crap.

This.

The great irony is that the franchise probably owed a large measure of its popularity to Lucas' willingness to serve up an unambiguously heroic characters and a happy ending, something that action movies just were not doing by the mid 70s.

I was there as a kid, and I have to say that action/adventure films ~1975 were pretty bleak. We got vengeful anti-heroes, dead & crippled protagonists, and endings that showed the corrupt business executives and idiot scientists had learned nothing from all the misadventures we had just witnessed. They were going to go on polluting the ocean, building firetrap skyscrapers or conducting diabolical experiments, at least until a sequel could be filmed. Credits would roll after "The END??????" splayed across the screen in a wavy, bloodstained font, accompanied by bittersweet or ominous music. Happy endings were for corny old Errol Flynn movies.

The post-Thrawn EU appears to have largely fallen into the same sort of trap.

I'm not that big of a star wars fan. I've never read any of the books or anything, although I've watched the movies and played most of the games. But even to my perspective, the EU's gone dangerously off the rails. I've had fun telling people true things that happen in the EU and false things that happen in the EU and they have no idea which is which. A gigantic lightsaber that destroys planets? A race of dinosaur people? A race of lemurs? A ship that runs through stars? Light Sided force lightning? I can make up almost anything with that as my guide and it could possibly exist in star wars.

A large part of the EU can just be described as stupid, let alone the problems with narrative and tone. Star wars is redemption and hope, the triumph of good on a galactic scale. Things can be dark and stuff can look bad, but it's a classic tale of good vs. evil, and it's one where good wins. Trying to clumsily change that just sends the whole universe out of whack. To take a nerdy example, it'd be like if there were unofficial official novels written about after the fall of Sauron that had the orcs come back and Sauron still living somehow. And the descendants of Sam end up turning into murderers. You can't do that, you screw up the universe by screwing up the tone of it.

I think what needs to happen over there is not just a clean slate, but some real honest creative control. They need to figure out what the tone of their universe is gonna be and how things are supposed to play out. This whole N, C, S, G business isn't control, it's an excuse for loose management of their brand. When you've got sliding scales of what counts in your universe, you don't have a universe.

Also making it dark and edgy like your black metal is literally the worst idea I've ever heard guy. Stop it, you have terrible ideas and worse taste.

That's the thing though, Kotor and TOR have given me the ability to make MY Star Wars.

 

It's Star Wars, but it's my twisted vision of it.

 

I don't have to care about what Lucas dictates as canon, I don't have to follow it.

 

I have an image of Star Wars in my head. I believe if I could put this image into film, it would be accepted and liked. Maybe not by hardcore SW canon fans, but by others like me and by people who probably didn't like sci-fi or SW that much to begin with.

 

To me, canonical Star Wars is like a Raffi record. It's for kids, and as a kid I loved SW and I loved Raffi.

 

That love of Raffi and SW turned me into a life long music and sci-fi fan, but I'm 28, I don't listen to Raffi, I listen to Anaal Nathrakh and Emperor, but would I love to hear Raffi try to put out a black metal album? Definitely.

 

Would I love to see Star Wars turned into something darker and more brutal? **** yes I would.

 

Would I love to see a do-over and Anakin's fall from grace? **** yes. Lucas made his fall from grace a little too "My Chemical Romance", I'd prefer to see it done a little more "Circle of Dead Children".

 

Yes, I'm a music nerd and use music for a lot of analogies.

I'm curious, and don't take this the wrong way...but what does 28 have to do with it? Being older doesnt mean that darker, more brutal stories are the only methods of entertainment...or that you can't enjoy fluff or 'feel good' stuff just because you've 'graduated to the next level.' I am 30, does that mean that the only movies I can like are Eli Roth flicks like Hostel...or whoever made the Human Centepede?

I, too, am a music buff. In fact, I have a degree in it. I absolutely love Beethoven's 3rd, 5th, and 7th symphonies. I also like Ravel's Balero; I also like Etta James (RIP ) Jason Mraz, and Marilyn Manson. Trent Renzor is an excellent composor, Incubus is a great band and they actually know what they're doing when it comes to formal music structure and Coldplay has excellent melodic lines...if you can just get past the bad angsty teen poetry garbage that are their lyrics.

But I also like Cake. Cake is my popcorn band. It's funky, and it doesn't take itself too seriously. In movies, I like Boondock Saints; and I like Toy Story 3.

TL;DR- being 28 doesn't mean you can't enjoy simplicity...thinking that it does shows immaturity.

I'm not that big of a star wars fan. I've never read any of the books or anything, although I've watched the movies and played most of the games. But even to my perspective, the EU's gone dangerously off the rails. I've had fun telling people true things that happen in the EU and false things that happen in the EU and they have no idea which is which. A gigantic lightsaber that destroys planets? A race of dinosaur people? A race of lemurs? A ship that runs through stars? Light Sided force lightning? I can make up almost anything with that as my guide and it could possibly exist in star wars.

every damn one of those is in the EU.

every damn one of those is in the EU.

EXACTLY. How can anything else you say sound too silly for the EU?

I don't get enough opportunities to link these.

http://3do.jediknight.net/dcm/strips/dcmeu.gif