Hey, Here are some proposed fixes that could be implemented into the talent trees for AP: People don't seem to be playing the spec the way the Devs intended; not taking HEC, most builds I see are hybrids as opposed to full AP builds, and many people I see playing don't use flamethrower everytime they get 5 stacks of PTF. Also, they don't go all the way up for Hamstring. These changes could fix that:

First and foremost, Flame Thrower needs a buff for us. Either a straight up damage buff, or (Preferably), adding it to Prototype Weapon Systems, giving us 30% crit damage to Flame thrower.

Serrated Blades SUCKS! Retractable blade is not worth the heat, according to some players.. Sure, it does more damage than flame burst, slightly, but requires melee range! Same with rocket punch, but let's just focus on RB. Retractable blade is really just something to add on for procs. I think that Serrated Blades should be replaced with something along the lines of "Damage dealt by Rocket Punch and Retractable Blade have a [10%/20%/30%] to make the next flamethrower free. I sort of took this from someone else (Cannot remember name, sorry), who proposed it, because we're usually in a hurry to deploy a flame thrower, and we're at about 50-60 heat, which really has us lose a lot of DPS. I don't wanna have to use TSO (Thermal Sensor Override) every time I overheat due to flamethrower...

Lastly, the stance: HEC is bad by most people's standards, as most people use the tank stance, because it's the only tank stance that doesn't limit damage by lowering it. In fact, it has extra damage than being stanceless! The other two tanks can't DPS in tank stance, but we can. Increasing HEC's damage to something better (10%?), or, give it a proc! I imagine it would synergize well with the... proc-e-ness... of the spec. And of course it'll be all about heat conservation. How about elemental and internal damage has a 20% to make our next heat spender free? I'm all out of ideas, so discuss.

AP is not meant to be a burst spec, nor a high damage spec. It is meant as a sustained dps spec with mobility and survivability. HEC adds a constant 5% dmg to your main attacks RB, FT and FB... sustained dps.

The people that are not full AP are doing so because they are afraid to give up the talents they are used to in other trees. The changes you are proposing makes it sound like you want a Pyrotechish AP... Which it does not need. AP is nice as is. If people would use a full AP spec and learn how to use it, instead of trying to force a play style that was not meant for it. They would not be having problems.

AP is not meant to be a burst spec, nor a high damage spec. It is meant as a sustained dps spec with mobility and survivability. HEC adds a constant 5% dmg to your main attacks RB, FT and FB... sustained dps.

 

The people that are not full AP are doing so because they are afraid to give up the talents they are used to in other trees. The changes you are proposing makes it sound like you want a Pyrotechish AP... Which it does not need. AP is nice as is. If people would use a full AP spec and learn how to use it, instead of trying to force a play style that was not meant for it. They would not be having problems.

Couple of Changes - HEGC Talented is 8 percent. Regardless of whether AP is supposed to be burst or not. The problem lies in CGC which is Pyro's Cylinder. You can get better sustained damage by Going AP with CGC. It's a pain to do, but it's doable.

I agree that People are proposing changes that are a bit too radical at times. My personal feeling is Charged Gauntlets should add 5 percent with stacks up to 4 to PFT. This would make PFT and Charged Gauntlets a significant upgrade to what Pyro can do with it. Remember the damage difference between PFT and Pyro's FT is 50 percent this means if your crit is 2k per tick than Pyro's crit should be half of that, but it's not. The pyro's in my guild get 1.5-1.8k crits on Flame Thrower, I get 2.2k Crits.

Charged Gauntlets should add more damage to Flame Thrower or improve it's crit precentage. I would like to see PFT be 2x stronger for AP than for Pyro. Currently it's about 500 damage per tick which is nice, but Immolate and Flame Burst are pretty close to FT in damage and don't require casting time.

Remember the damage difference between PFT and Pyro's FT is 50 percent this means if your crit is 2k per tick than Pyro's crit should be half of that, but it's not. The pyro's in my guild get 1.5-1.8k crits on Flame Thrower, I get 2.2k Crits.

Um 50% of something isn't half, it's 50% (which I know 50% is half, but you're doubling the base and saying you should be doing 3k-3.6k but that's 100% not 50%).

Like How do i show this, ok so let's say your surge is 50% and base is 1k.

So without PFT your crits should be 1.5k, ok simple.

With PFT your base is now 1.5k, (1k base plus 50% more, which is 500), now add the 50% surge, is 2.25k. If it was 100% then yes it should be half (ie base is now 2k, 50% surge is another 1k = 3k, which is double none PFT), 50% makes it 50%, (1.5k crit for base * 50% for PFT is 2.25k, another way of looking at it is add half of the base crit, so base crit is 1.5k, half is 750, 1.5+750=2.25k). Hope I explained this better.

Um 50% of something isn't half, it's 50% (which I know 50% is half, but you're doubling the base and saying you should be doing 3k-3.6k but that's 100% not 50%).

 

Like How do i show this, ok so let's say your surge is 50% and base is 1k.

 

So without PFT your crits should be 1.5k, ok simple.

 

With PFT your base is now 1.5k, (1k base plus 50% more, which is 500), now add the 50% surge, is 2.25k. If it was 100% then yes it should be half (ie base is now 2k, 50% surge is another 1k = 3k, which is double none PFT), 50% makes it 50%, (1.5k crit for base * 50% for PFT is 2.25k, another way of looking at it is add half of the base crit, so base crit is 1.5k, half is 750, 1.5+750=2.25k). Hope I explained this better.

You are right, my brain froze. I got stuck at the 1/2, and when base numbers changed, kept going divided by 2 instead of using .5 multiplier. Thanks for the clarification. In the end that only proves that we need a higher number. I think if Charged Guantlets added to the damage it would make PFT awesome, but they would probably have to tie PFT to HEGC at that point.

You are right, my brain froze. I got stuck at the 1/2, and when base numbers changed, kept going divided by 2 instead of using .5 multiplier. Thanks for the clarification. In the end that only proves that we need a higher number. I think if Charged Guantlets added to the damage it would make PFT awesome, but they would probably have to tie PFT to HEGC at that point.

Or Make HEGC that much better and keep all the heat/movement benefits. Right now it Blows Chunks, srsly.

I agree AP needs a tweak here or there, but not too much. HEGC buff and yeah maybe CG adds another 20% to FT. But it doesn't need a huge tweak or 5-10 changes. Just 2 changes would probably be OK.

Or Make HEGC that much better and keep all the heat/movement benefits. Right now it Blows Chunks, srsly.

 

I agree AP needs a tweak here or there, but not too much. HEGC buff and yeah maybe CG adds another 20% to FT. But it doesn't need a huge tweak or 5-10 changes. Just 2 changes would probably be OK.

I actually think AP is fine the way it is, it's pyro that's out of whack.

The two changes that would bring Pyro into line with most of the other dps classes (let's not get into Mara/Sent over the top damage).

1. Take the 30 percent increase in Combustible Gas Cylinders dot damage down to 15 percent.

2. Reduce Rail Shot's Armor Penetration talent to 30 percent so the total is 60 percent instead of 90 percent.

This would bring the crazy damage of Pyro down to AP levels, and would reduce the burst from it's current 8-10k in a single second to a more manageable 5-8k.

I actually think AP is fine the way it is, it's pyro that's out of whack.

The two changes that would bring Pyro into line with most of the other dps classes (let's not get into Mara/Sent over the top damage).

 

1. Take the 30 percent increase in Combustible Gas Cylinders dot damage down to 15 percent.

 

2. Reduce Rail Shot's Armor Penetration talent to 30 percent so the total is 60 percent instead of 90 percent.

 

This would bring the crazy damage of Pyro down to AP levels, and would reduce the burst from it's current 8-10k in a single second to a more manageable 5-8k.

Then as you say you gotta nerf mara/sent's. I don't know. I"m sure pyro is getting a nerf inc, i thought it was in 1.3 tbh.

Then as you say you gotta nerf mara/sent's. I don't know. I"m sure pyro is getting a nerf inc, i thought it was in 1.3 tbh.

I don't know enough about Mara/Sent's in order to properly suggest minor tweaks. I think everyone's main issue with Mara's is their defensive cooldowns. They are easily kiteable so their damage is pretty easy to reduce without worry. My recommendation is take that shield, that hurts you for damage you do to them, away. The 99 percent damage reduction should be either taken away or the 45 sec cooldown on vanish should be taken away.

Actually let them keep that 99 percent 5sec shield, but have it reduce their outgoing damage by 50 percent during the time that the shield is up or have it reduce their speed by 50 percent. This would create a manageable fight.

I don't know enough about Mara/Sent's in order to properly suggest minor tweaks. I think everyone's main issue with Mara's is their defensive cooldowns. They are easily kiteable so their damage is pretty easy to reduce without worry. My recommendation is take that shield, that hurts you for damage you do to them, away. The 99 percent damage reduction should be either taken away or the 45 sec cooldown on vanish should be taken away.

 

Actually let them keep that 99 percent 5sec shield, but have it reduce their outgoing damage by 50 percent during the time that the shield is up or have it reduce their speed by 50 percent. This would create a manageable fight.

agreed. I would like to see 50% reduction to outgoing damage. Can't tell you how many times i'm at 50% hp they are at 25% they pop it, and i stun, they break it, and i'm dead before their shield comes down.

agreed. I would like to see 50% reduction to outgoing damage. Can't tell you how many times i'm at 50% hp they are at 25% they pop it, and i stun, they break it, and i'm dead before their shield comes down.

Exactly for their damage output that shield is ridiculous. Could you imagine if snipers or scoundrels had that ability or heaven forbid PT's? There are no seriously OP classes, just a few classes that need minor tweaks. Such as Commandos/Mercs getting a decent defensive cooldown on a short timer. Sages getting some sort of non-bubble defensive cooldown that reduces damage taken a bit. Operatives/Scoundrels need a gap closer and a small increase to damage across the board.

Snipers and Guardian seem fine to me.

AP is not meant to be a burst spec, nor a high damage spec. It is meant as a sustained dps spec with mobility and survivability. HEC adds a constant 5% dmg to your main attacks RB, FT and FB... sustained dps.

 

The people that are not full AP are doing so because they are afraid to give up the talents they are used to in other trees. The changes you are proposing makes it sound like you want a Pyrotechish AP... Which it does not need. AP is nice as is. If people would use a full AP spec and learn how to use it, instead of trying to force a play style that was not meant for it. They would not be having problems.

Not supposed to be high damage? Why go AP then? They have HO and a passive boost, but they have to channel a lot (That is, if played the way intended. Many APs I know don't use flame thrower too often). The only reason to go AP is to have AoE damage, and to have less overall damage, and to have no burst. Yeah, that makes sense. All AP does better in PvP is short-term mobility (AoE damage isn't too useful), which isn't needed, never having to cast is good enough. All AP does better in PvE is to clean up trash, which... ugh, if that's all it can do well then the spec would be trash .

The changes I implemented wouldn't make this Pyro-ee at all. Okay, you say AP has mobility, this wouldn't change it's mobility at all, only dmg. All I did was say buff the move we have to SIT STILL and CHANNEL to make it so people think it's worth using enough to USE IT. It's like playing a vigilance guardian, but never using master strike. Or using a pyro spec to never use rail shot. Key, spec-defining concepts make AP good; great heat dissipation, AoE damage, and very proc-ish. My changes would improve damage. All I want is AP to actually be worth playing. If people are doing damage with a tank spec, something is wrong. When people AREN'T taking charged gauntlets + hamstring (Which obviously they should, which is why it requires so many talent points to get, implying it must be good), it means that they're not worth getting.

It's not that they don't want to GIVE UP other talents in other trees, it's just that those talents are better than the ones in AP. You do not take a lot of pyrotech talents in an AP build. if you do, something is majorly wrong. Pyro and AP are NOT on equal terms, as evident by how many pyros there are and how few full AP HEC builds there are. I've seen only two other people on my large serve r(Post-transfers) running AP at all, and pre-server transfers, I saw one in Ion Cell. Ion Cell is obviously for tanks, HEC for AP. People not using it as such shows there is a problem.

AP has the worst survivability of all the specs; two percent dmg reduction is crap compared to Reflexive Shield. People who say Reflexive shield are either PvEing, or are dumb; If you get hit ever gcd for 40 seconds (In PvP one-on-ones, that happens a lot), your Energy Shield will have a 40 second cooldown. Fact.

So, AP is basically a low-damage, (basically) melee spec with the worst survivability, and can have the best mobility, but still has a core move of needing to channel.

So yeah, anyone want to sacrifice range and low damage for slightly better mobility... only some of the time, and only when you're not at your alerady-low peak damage?

Play a 1v1 as full AP without using any melee moves or flame thrower, you'll see just how ****** it is. Using those, you sacrifice some mobility and range for damage that, as you have explained, "should be" mediocre compared to pyro. Uh huh...

I agree that People are proposing changes that are a bit too radical at times. My personal feeling is Charged Gauntlets should add 5 percent with stacks up to 4 to PFT. This would make PFT and Charged Gauntlets a significant upgrade to what Pyro can do with it. Remember the damage difference between PFT and Pyro's FT is 50 percent this means if your crit is 2k per tick than Pyro's crit should be half of that, but it's not. The pyro's in my guild get 1.5-1.8k crits on Flame Thrower, I get 2.2k Crits.

 

Charged Gauntlets should add more damage to Flame Thrower or improve it's crit precentage. I would like to see PFT be 2x stronger for AP than for Pyro. Currently it's about 500 damage per tick which is nice, but Immolate and Flame Burst are pretty close to FT in damage and don't require casting time.

That's the probably the best idea - PFT should really be our signature move, so improving it further would probably go a long way towards making AP a better spec. Not that I think it's bad, I'm enjoying it a lot more than Pyrotech - but it doesn't quite compare.

However, I'd like to point out that PFT is AoE, so it's not exactly fair to compare it with Immolate or Flame Burst.

And about Charged Gauntlets - what if PFT would dealt 15% more damage when target's below 30% health?

even if PFT is uninterruptable its still our worst move. You stand still for 3 secs, you must aim your target, you cant hit targets, that are higher and lower than you, because you cant adjust vertical aim of FT.

I dont know if that PFT buff ideas are right. Maybe we should dream about HEGC rebuild as it seems bad compared to CGC. Maybe we should get somekinda finisher move, like double railshot on target < 30% with charged gauntlets

That's the probably the best idea - PFT should really be our signature move, so improving it further would probably go a long way towards making AP a better spec. Not that I think it's bad, I'm enjoying it a lot more than Pyrotech - but it doesn't quite compare.

 

However, I'd like to point out that PFT is AoE, so it's not exactly fair to compare it with Immolate or Flame Burst.

 

And about Charged Gauntlets - what if PFT would dealt 15% more damage when target's below 30% health?

It may be our aoe signature move, but let's compare it to the other classes with the same ability. Our Signature AOE hits in a cone shape for 8k over a span of 3 seconds of channeled damage and slows it's target by 70 percent. Rage/Focus Marauders/Sentinels and Juggernaughts/Guardians have a signature aoe move that's instant and can hit for as high as 8k per target hit. Madness assassins have an aoe Death Field that applies a dot and heals them for as many targets hit. It's their signature move and it's worlds better than our cone shaped aoe.

I think AP is okay outside of an increase to PFT damage. The big issue is Pyro's Combustible Gas cylinder. It's the 2nd most powerful dot in the game, and it's a spammable slow attached to their standard rotation. They don't even need the slow as much as AP does, but I guarantee if you reduced the amount of damage to CGC than you would see less complaints about Pyro's.

even if PFT is uninterruptable its still our worst move. You stand still for 3 secs, you must aim your target, you cant hit targets, that are higher and lower than you, because you cant adjust vertical aim of FT.

I dont know if that PFT buff ideas are right. Maybe we should dream about HEGC rebuild as it seems bad compared to CGC. Maybe we should get somekinda finisher move, like double railshot on target < 30% with charged gauntlets

I don't want anymore railshot abilities. HEGC will not get rebuilt. I think they will do something else rather than rebuild. The problem is that in all numbers testing AP is only 4.7 percent behind Pyro in a standard boss fight, and that's where BW wants the tree to be. Does it cover up the fact that in highly mobile fight AP falls off if it can't pull off PFT every 12-15 seconds? That on a majority of the movement intense fights AP will fall behind by as much as 15-20 percent in damage. Of course it does, but hey, their goal was 5 percent in perfect scenarios. I want to know who tested Operatives and said, yep Scrappers are within 5 percent of Mara/Sent and PT's.