Hi everyone, if your reading this you're like me and enjoy crafting and selling your wares on the GTN. This in itself can be a fun and rewarding mini game within the game of SWTOR with the way of keeping score the amount of credits you make.

To this end Id like to help out a few of you I keep on seeing make the same mistakes over and over again. To make money you need to know your market, our market is the older players who have a huge amount of credits built up and are working on their 2nd, 3rd or more alt. These people have tons of credits sitting around with nothing to do with it, they see credits mostly as worthless.. To them spending a couple of hundred thousand every ten levels is nothing (at 55 your repair bill on a night of raiding can easily top 100k if you have a bad night). Ive occasionally asked people why they sell items at low amounts and they normally come back with "Its to help out the newer players and give them a break" or " I'm new and this seems like a lot to me". Well I hate to burst your bubble people but most of the time the items you sell for real cheap are bought up by people like me and resold at a much higher price.

Next thing people seem to do wrong is considering the cost of the materials for the items they sell. If you make assumptions about the costs of coarse your going to assume the selling price should be in line with it. Another thing knowledgeable players do is look at the gtn for people selling items at or below the actual cost of making said item, buy them up and sell them for a much higher amount. No matter what you think the cost of making an item is, "well I got those rares on a crit while getting the blues I wanted so the cost was free", its wrong.

To find the cost of making an item each mat must be considered, find the average cost of that mat on the gtn. If, for example, it sells for a low of 5k and an high of 20k, I will put the cost of each at about 9k as the higher priced ones are normally trying to find someone desperate for the mat when all others sell out. You cant say the cost is 5k as that is the lowest because it wont always be the lowest price, Ive seen rare days where I can pick that mat up for 4k and weeks where it wont drop below 10k. Even the mats you gathered yourself needs to be added in to the cost of the item your making. Not only was there time involved but you can sell them by themselves as mats and make money. This may seem wrong to you when your leveling a toon ( after all your picking up the mats as you play) but as you get into the game of selling on the gtn you realize the time involved in going out to harvest is too much, you cant keep it up. You will eventually have to buy most if not all of your mats on the gtn.

To continue our example, lets say we added up all the costs to make the item you want to sell and it comes out to 10k credits. If the item is blue then we can safely double the price as your selling price, if its purple we need to add in a few more thousand to make up for the RE cost of getting this recipe. The reason Ive added a few thousand for this is to get that recipe you had to RE on average 10 blues (check your recipes, that 20% drops to 10% real fast at higher levels) at a cost of 5-10k each ( Im being nice here as in the real world you would use the cost of lost sales for the item not making it) to get 1 random purple recipe, sometimes it takes 3-4 of those random recipes to get one for a salable item.

Once you've done all this make sure there isn't a large amount of this item already on the gtn, make a couple and put them up at your price. If there are many of them on the gtn bypass it for now and move on to the next item. After doing this for a while you will find out what you can make and sell at a good profit for your time involved. Some things will sell very fast so even if there are a few on the gtn, at a lower price than what you want to sell for, you will still be able to sell yours at the price you want. One of the biggest mistakes Ive seen people do is get a new recipe and immediately flood the market with that item. Its a waste of materials and time.

Last thing to consider when selling items is if you want to undercut people or not. If you do you will sell more but: you will get a much lower profit per item and it creates more work for yourself at less earnings.

However you go about running your little business the idea is to have fun and hopefully Ive helped you out to make a better profit.

/snip..

 

Well I hate to burst your bubble people but most of the time the items you sell for real cheap are bought up by people like me and resold at a much higher price.

This cannot be emphasized enough.

No matter what you think the cost of making an item is, "well I got those rares on a crit while getting the blues I wanted so the cost was free", its wrong.

Again for emphasis. I used to think this way. I learned my lesson years ago playing WoW. Long story short, in that game I gathered all my own materials and sold finished goods to guildmates and friends (my Guild Master insisted I sell), thought I was making good money, was proven SOOOOO wrong when I actually looked at the Auction House prices for materials and the finished goods.

To find the cost of making an item each mat must be considered, find the average cost of that mat on the gtn.

Unless you are actually doing the math, you are more likely visualizing the other two statistical values:

median (arrange the values highest to lowest and find the middle)

mode (the most common value)

And in case you are doing the math, be aware that just taking the mean (average) value is not always the most accurate.

Last thing to consider when selling items is if you want to undercut people or not. If you do you will sell more but: you will get a much lower profit per item and it creates more work for yourself at less earnings.

That all depends on by how much one undercuts. This statement above it true if you are undercutting by a significant amount. But FYI, one will make just as many sales undercutting by a handful of credits (1-10) as undercutting by a larger amount. I know because I used to undercut to the nearest multiple of 250 (i.e. lowest posted is 12500, I would post at 12250), now I undercut by 1 (i.e. 12500 to 12499) and sales have not diminished one bit.

That all depends on by how much one undercuts. This statement above it true if you are undercutting by a significant amount. But FYI, one will make just as many sales undercutting by a handful of credits (1-10) as undercutting by a larger amount. I know because I used to undercut to the nearest multiple of 250 (i.e. lowest posted is 12500, I would post at 12250), now I undercut by 1 (i.e. 12500 to 12499) and sales have not diminished one bit.

True but I was thinking of a situation where the other person was way lower than the price you want to sell for. To continue my example, if the item was blue and cost 10k in mats to make our selling price would be 20k. If the current lowest price on the gtn is 12k whats the point of making the item today for a profit of 2k when you can move on to the next item on your list that will sell for your asking price. Its very situational.

True but I was thinking of a situation where the other person was way lower than the price you want to sell for. To continue my example, if the item was blue and cost 10k in mats to make our selling price would be 20k. If the current lowest price on the gtn is 12k whats the point of making the item today for a profit of 2k when you can move on to the next item on your list that will sell for your asking price. Its very situational.

But it is up to each player to decide what his/her bargain basement pricing is. And one needs to re-evaluate that pricing level now and then.

For example: when I first started selling blue quality top end augments (grade 22 at the time), they typically sold for 12k - 20k each, most commonly falling around 15k. Grade 28 blues augments initially fell into the same range. But then prices plummeted. No matter how many I bought up and re-posted; no matter how long I held back my stock the new range was 7.5k to 15k. I knew how much it cost to make them and at the new pricing I would still profit...just not as much. My choice was to either abandon that market or adjust my bargain basement pricing. I did both. I slowed my production and focused on other items, but I also decreased my bargain basement pricing.

But even with that in mind, players do need to realize that they need not always post at their bottom level. It only takes a moment to check current pricing and yet - based on some of the major undercutting I see - many players don't even bother; they post at what they post without even thinking about it.

What you're labeling as mistakes are more commonly just players who care more about playing SWTOR than the mini-game of playing the GTN.

Then why are they posting in the first place and at anything but the default pricing?

Then why are they posting in the first place and at anything but the default pricing?

Because I have 6 cargo bays on 9+ toons full of crap and need it gone...I will undercut you by at least half or even more just to clean it out from time to time.

and for some reason, I still make millions.

Because I have 6 cargo bays on 9+ toons full of crap and need it gone...I will undercut you by at least half or even more just to clean it out from time to time.

 

and for some reason, I still make millions.

You make millions, because I (and players like me) buy up what you are posting, re-post, and still sell everything.

Thank you for being my/our wholesaler

Profiteering Stuff

Solid post. Part of me wishes you hadn't disclosed this information, however. heh

and for some reason, I still make millions.

That's because people like me are buying your poorly priced items for millions and then flipping those items to make tens of millions.

But do carry on. My toons need easy inventories of goods. lol

I think it's fine that you're making tens of millions or whatever. I prefer to only waste my time on big ticket items. For example, if I see an item that I think is worth 600k selling for 450k, I'd probably pick it up and reprice it at 550-600k. Never liked trying to get rich in game playing the GTN, and I've been playing mmos since 2000.

If I can score an occasional big ticket bargain though, and flip it for easy cash, it makes me happy. One thing that does annoy me though, and which I do think affects new players, is when a crafter puts several of the same high-end item on the GTN for a reasonable price, and then some dbag buys up all of them and tries to go extortionate with the price level.

What you're labeling as mistakes are more commonly just players who care more about playing SWTOR than the mini-game of playing the GTN.

I would agree with you if it wasnt the same names I repeatedly see doing this. Once you could be correct, but if the same person keeps on posting the same crafted items every day at prices lower than the cost of making it, they are making mistakes. I dont really mind as I keep buying and reselling. It takes money to play at end game and Im just trying to help people have that money when they get there.

I would agree with you if it wasnt the same names I repeatedly see doing this.

This wording implies that you do not believe that there exist people to whom playing the whole of SWTOR is more important than "playing the mini-game of the GTN" alone.

And I don't believe that this point of view is right, because of this rule : "one's own Imagination is only exceeded by Reality."

This wording implies that you do not believe that there exist people to whom playing the whole of SWTOR is more important than "playing the mini-game of the GTN" alone.

 

And I don't believe that this point of view is right, because of this rule : "one's own Imagination is only exceeded by Reality."

Then I pose this question: if those players enjoy playing the rest of the game more than the GTN, but repeatedly sell items for less than they cost to manufacture, why are they crafting anything at all?

They obviously take some pleasure from crafting, or they would not be repeatedly selling. With that in mind, why do they sell for so little when they know they could get more?

Then I pose this question: if those players enjoy playing the rest of the game more than the GTN, but repeatedly sell items for less than they cost to manufacture, why are they crafting anything at all?

 

They obviously take some pleasure from crafting, or they would not be repeatedly selling. With that in mind, why do they sell for so little when they know they could get more?

The OPs original jist was "know your market" which to me sounds like "pay attention to how everyone else is selling products". Okay. That's a lot of data analysis that I don't have time for.

"Know how much your mats cost, how many RE you did, etc." Still, that is a lot of date analysis that I don't have time for.

I attempted to count how many times I had to RE a certain armor before it turned blue. I gave up counting after x many tries.

It is a lot of data analysis that I don't have time for *or* really care about.

To state that x is undercutting the cost of making the y product, doesn't help improve my merchandising.

If I had an automated system that showed me it took " x " attempts to armor green to armor blue and " y" amount of materials at " z " price, then I'd be interest because all the data is there in front of me. It's in the system. I don't want to write stuff down. We have had computers for this type of work since the 1970s at least.

I would agree with you if it wasnt the same names I repeatedly see doing this. Once you could be correct, but if the same person keeps on posting the same crafted items every day at prices lower than the cost of making it, they are making mistakes. I dont really mind as I keep buying and reselling. It takes money to play at end game and Im just trying to help people have that money when they get there.

It is a lot of data analysis that I don't have time for *or* really care about..

That's my feeling as well. Yes, I could make ridiculous amounts of money playing the market, but I'd rather spend much less time to make slightly ridiculous amounts and use the rest of the time to shoot dudes in the face.

The OPs original jist was "know your market" which to me sounds like "pay attention to how everyone else is selling products". Okay. That's a lot of data analysis that I don't have time for.

 

"Know how much your mats cost, how many RE you did, etc." Still, that is a lot of date analysis that I don't have time for.

 

I attempted to count how many times I had to RE a certain armor before it turned blue. I gave up counting after x many tries.

 

It is a lot of data analysis that I don't have time for *or* really care about.

 

To state that x is undercutting the cost of making the y product, doesn't help improve my merchandising.

 

If I had an automated system that showed me it took " x " attempts to armor green to armor blue and " y" amount of materials at " z " price, then I'd be interest because all the data is there in front of me. It's in the system. I don't want to write stuff down. We have had computers for this type of work since the 1970s at least.

#1 it takes all of five clicks (open the GTN, shift-click the item you are posting, click search in the GTN window, then click the sort by unit price heading twice) to determine what the current (low value) pricing of ANY given item is. 5 seconds at most per item you want to sell. Even if you are posting 20 different items, we're talking about a total of 2 minutes to do the searches.

#2 I agree don't worry so much about how many times you REed to get the next schematic. Given enough time you make up that cost regardless of how many REs you did. The point of the tracking REs is to assume data:

- for item mods, it takes 7 attempts to get to blue and 7 more to get to purple (sometimes a little more sometimes a little less)

- for gear, it takes 21 attempts to go from green to all three blue and another 100 to go from the three blue to all 14 purples.

Now how much did that cost you? It depends on the item, but the math is relatively easy regardless.

Why is it a mistake if people like you keep buying their stuff? Seems like a proper business model to me. They might not be making as much profit per item on average, but could very well be compensated for that by high turnover rates.

But that's just it, the turnover rate is not increased by lower pricing, unless you are selling at or below cost to manufacture. Posting a blue quality armoring at 8000 credits is no more likely to sell than one at 14000, because it is only demand that drives sales; you can post an item for 1 credit, but if no one wants it, it ain't gonna sell. So why post at 8000 when the next lowest is 14000?

That high turnover you see is players like me buying up your 8000 credit armoring and re-posting it at 14000. You are getting 7520 credits (8000 minus the 6% GTN cut), for a ~6000 credit to craft item, that's a 25% profit margin. And I get 13160, after paying 8000, that's a 65% profit margin.

And I see just as high a turnover as you (I sold 60 item modifications overnight across four characters)

The OP is written from the perspective of a high end trader with extensive resources, but not everyone is in that position.

The OP probably does not do very much actual crafting-and almost all the crafting done is probably very high end, with some additional continuous R&D to generate new purples for sale. The OP is trying to cover every potential market, and is familiar with prices across the board. The OP is in a position similar to Amazon-lots of money to manipulate markets, lots of knowledge of those markets. A lot of the producct sold is bought from others who have made it, because it is faster to by it at a good price than make it.

In exchange, the OP is taking on some risk here-the market could shift or collapse, and the OP can be stuck with unsaleable inventory that must be released at fire sale prices.

Not all players can support that risk. Instead, they are struggling to stay above water. They are out there running quests and picking up mats, and then knocking out whatever they can so they can afford repairs and skillz and whatnot. For these people, maximizing profit is not nearly so important as reducing risk-the cost of not being able to buy a skillz upgrade is much higher than a few thousand credits.

Basically, there are two markets: the primary market, where the producers sell to the OP and other rich individuals, and the secondary market, where the OP sells to consumers. While the profit margins are higher in the secondary market, so is the risk and the capital requirements. Selling in the primary market is not necessarily a mistake, if the seller does not have the knowledge to evaluate risk, or the capital to support it.

Selling far below the second-lowest price encourages speculative buying-in other words, the OP is more likely to buy it. And this happens even if there is no demand in the secondary market.

...

 

Not all players can support that risk. Instead, they are struggling to stay above water. They are out there running quests and picking up mats, and then knocking out whatever they can so they can afford repairs and skillz and whatnot. For these people, maximizing profit is not nearly so important as reducing risk-the cost of not being able to buy a skillz upgrade is much higher than a few thousand credits.

 

...

Just as a comment. For the new player struggling to stay afloat there are a number of easy-to-follow things that can be done that do not require being a full-time stock trader in-game.

One of the (many different) methods is to take Scavenging, Slicing and UT while leveling. Gather open-world nodes as you come across them (don't go out of your way), and have one's companions run UT missions while leveling. Whenever to make it back to the fleet, go to the GTN, list everything you have for 1 credit less than the lowest, and go back to your quests. Use quest rewards / planetary comms gear as needed.

Not all players can support that risk. Instead, they are struggling to stay above water. They are out there running quests and picking up mats, and then knocking out whatever they can so they can afford repairs and skillz and whatnot. For these people, maximizing profit is not nearly so important as reducing risk-the cost of not being able to buy a skillz upgrade is much higher than a few thousand credits.

But that is the crux of the OP's statements. These players trying to stay afloat are selling themselves short. Where's the logic in crafting something from materials that are valued at X and selling that item for less than X?

About 30 minutes ago, I bought a dozen grade 28 blue quality enhancements posted at 5,000 credits each; the materials to make them are selling for 6,000 (total). One would need one crit in five crafts just to break even. That is a sure way to lose money not make it. These players "just trying to stay afloat" you mention would be better served just selling the materials.

Just as a comment. For the new player struggling to stay afloat there are a number of easy-to-follow things that can be done that do not require being a full-time stock trader in-game.

 

One of the (many different) methods is to take Scavenging, Slicing and UT while leveling. Gather open-world nodes as you come across them (don't go out of your way), and have one's companions run UT missions while leveling. Whenever to make it back to the fleet, go to the GTN, list everything you have for 1 credit less than the lowest, and go back to your quests. Use quest rewards / planetary comms gear as needed.

Adding to that, if you have a decent memory and a head for simple math, you should be able to quickly spot any significantly low outliers when posting your gathered mats.

These underpriced outliers are typically odd sized stacks posted at the default price, and can and should be bought up and reposted at the average selling price.

You won't find stacks underpriced every time you search, but if you keep an eye out, you will find them from time to time and can significantly increase your credits with minimal risk and no need to be camping the GTN while keeping up a detailed spreadsheet.

The best thing I ever found was a stack of molecular stabilizers selling for the default price (which was only a couple K credits) back when the going rate was close to 200K each. That was a very good day.