I can see you added 16-man... but at the expense of 8-man? Why on earth would you make it harder to queue for the daily GF Op?

Given that the majority of players play dps, it should actually easier to queue for GF now for most people because the required ratio of tanks to dps is now smaller.

I'd guess because the idea of group finder is to queue and get grouped with some random people, not create an 8 man ops group + get extra rewards for using group finder.

It's to increase the amount of people that get in to Ops Groups.

With 8 man, the DPS to Tank ratio is 2:1. With 16 man, the DPS to Tank ratio is 5:1. This will allow many many more people to get in to Ops Groups because, let's face it, there's way more DPS than there are Tanks.

In other words.. the same 2 Tanks that would have tanked an 8 man with 6 other people, can Tank a 16 man with 14 other people.

TL;DR, The amount of Tanks (not DPS, and very seldomly Healers) dictates the amount of groups that get in to group finder Operations. Since 8 and 16 man require the same number of Tanks (2), making group finder 16 man gets, overall, more people in to Operations.

8 man is also harder than 16 man. For a pub group that isn't very coordinated, 8 person groups can be brutal. 16 is much more forgiving.

16 person groups will also help alleviate DPS waiting around all day for a pop.

8 man is also harder than 16 man. For a pub group that isn't very coordinated, 8 person groups can be brutal. 16 is much more forgiving.

 

16 person groups will also help alleviate DPS waiting around all day for a pop.

The toughest fight on SM atm is the Dread Council in DP. I lost count how many 16M fell apart before even trying it or after wiping.

During the period of 8M ops in groupfinder, there was not a single DP run that wasn't finished by the groups I were with, even with some first timers in the group. 16M will just bring back a lot of quittung and frustration to many SM raiders. Since 8M requires everyone to on their guard during boss fights, people will actually try to contribute. In 16M too many people rely on the rest of the group and just want to be carried. That's why 16M groups more often fail than 8M groups. Furthermore, players in 16M tend to be more rude than in 8M, which will lead to less beginners and casual raiders joining them.

Changing groupfinder operations to 16M only is a bad thing for the game and for new players in particular. That is just my opinion, of course.

The toughest fight on SM atm is the Dread Council in DP. I lost count how many 16M fell apart before even trying it or after wiping.

 

During the period of 8M ops in groupfinder, there was not a single DP run that wasn't finished by the groups I were with, even with some first timers in the group. 16M will just bring back a lot of quittung and frustration to many SM raiders. Since 8M requires everyone to on their guard during boss fights, people will actually try to contribute. In 16M too many people rely on the rest of the group and just want to be carried. That's why 16M groups more often fail than 8M groups. Furthermore, players in 16M tend to be more rude than in 8M, which will lead to less beginners and casual raiders joining them.

 

Changing groupfinder operations to 16M only is a bad thing for the game and for new players in particular. That is just my opinion, of course.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree. I think those who don't want to try don't bother queuing up as it's not like GF operations are insta-pops. There are those, however, who aren't as skilled. It is much easier to cover for a less skilled DPS or healer in 16 man with more people to pick up the slack.

I will also say that it should be much easier to get groups since you don't need any additional tanks to get 2 more healers and 6 more DPS in an operation now.

The toughest fight on SM atm is the Dread Council in DP. I lost count how many 16M fell apart before even trying it or after wiping.

 

During the period of 8M ops in groupfinder, there was not a single DP run that wasn't finished by the groups I were with, even with some first timers in the group. 16M will just bring back a lot of quittung and frustration to many SM raiders. Since 8M requires everyone to on their guard during boss fights, people will actually try to contribute. In 16M too many people rely on the rest of the group and just want to be carried. That's why 16M groups more often fail than 8M groups. Furthermore, players in 16M tend to be more rude than in 8M, which will lead to less beginners and casual raiders joining them.

 

Changing groupfinder operations to 16M only is a bad thing for the game and for new players in particular. That is just my opinion, of course.

I'm not sorry to say that Is not my experience, at all.

16m groups have been FAR more successful, in my experience, in both DF and DP. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see why. Your margin of error on 16m is much wider than on 8m.

Don't take my word for it. That has come from both SWTOR and WoW developers (obviously 25m in WoW)

/lol @ the fact that you went the "they try harder in 8m thus it keeps the plebians and noobs/casuals out" excuse...

I'm not sorry to say that Is not my experience, at all.

 

16m groups have been FAR more successful, in my experience, in both DF and DP. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see why. Your margin of error on 16m is much wider than on 8m.

 

Don't take my word for it. That has come from both SWTOR and WoW developers (obviously 25m in WoW)

 

/lol @ the fact that you went the "they try harder in 8m thus it keeps the plebians and noobs/casuals out" excuse...

And what is wrong with wanting to get players to be better? the lack of good effort in 16 man is the reason why i prefered the 8 man GF and hoped they kept it that way. Cause there should be better rewards for the type of group that requires more effort and coordination rather than the larger group. Which is why i always felt more Ultimate comms should go to 8 man than 16 man

for me this is a disaster. i really dislike 16man ops. you can barely see anything as everyone is jumbled all over each and the whole thing just ends up as a bit of a farce. its really counter-intuitive to actually learning the op but rather makes it much easier to run around like a headless chicken and still succeed as long as a decent percentage of the group can carry you.

i enjoy 8m and while it's harder to get in a group as a dps 95% of the time that i've been looking for a group i've found one. and that 5% just encouraged me to play in different roles.

and people were still pugging on the fleet and only joining GF when the group was complete so it hasn't fixed that if that was even a problem.

/lol @ the fact that you went the "they try harder in 8m thus it keeps the plebians and noobs/casuals out" excuse...

Not sure what your problem is. My point was exactly that 8M brings in more casuals and beginners. In my 8M runs these people enjoyed the ops much more, cause the whole atmosphere was more relaxed than in 16M where you got all the rude and impatient people. Behaviour in smaller groups is just different, because you cannot hide in the crowd. And of course they try harder in 8M, because it actually matters what they do, while in 16M it doesn't matter. Best thing in 8M groupfinder was to guide casuals/beginners through the ops and council especially and then to see the reactions. Feeling of accomplishment, because they contributed to the success of the run and their contribution made a difference. Lots of positive feelings. Fun. And isn't that what a game is about?

The group mentality plays a huge role imo. I see often posts here on the forum that complain about rude behaviour against beginners/casuals which leads to some people not doing operations at all. 8M ops are really more laid back and people are much more patient in my experience. How people behave in group content is important for a MMO.

Overall, in my opinion and experience....8M ops are the better game experience especially for casuals and beginners.

And what is wrong with wanting to get players to be better? the lack of good effort in 16 man is the reason why i prefered the 8 man GF and hoped they kept it that way. Cause there should be better rewards for the type of group that requires more effort and coordination rather than the larger group. Which is why i always felt more Ultimate comms should go to 8 man than 16 man

Agreed.

If tanks are the limiting the factor in the queues, this change will speed up the queues for everyone that is not a tank already.

If healers are the limiting factor in the queues, this change will have considerably less effect on queue times for anyone other than dps, and even for them the improvement will be small.

I'm of the mind that 16-man is easier than 8-man because the margin for error is wider. In 8-man operations one dead damage dealer can wipe an entire group during a dps check fight like the last boss in SnV. All of the SM bosses are are pretty easy in both 8 and 16 man operations in my opinion though.

I wouldn't mind if they offered both raid sizes in Ops GF personally, but this would have a very severe impact on queue times for anyone who doesn't queue with a full-premade group because pool of players to match for a group would be split between them. I never queue for a GF Ops without a full pre-made so I would be fine either way, but I think a lot of people who don't use pre-made groups would find this solution to be fairly intolerable.

Not sure what your problem is. My point was exactly that 8M brings in more casuals and beginners. In my 8M runs these people enjoyed the ops much more, cause the whole atmosphere was more relaxed than in 16M where you got all the rude and impatient people. Behaviour in smaller groups is just different, because you cannot hide in the crowd. And of course they try harder in 8M, because it actually matters what they do, while in 16M it doesn't matter. Best thing in 8M groupfinder was to guide casuals/beginners through the ops and council especially and then to see the reactions. Feeling of accomplishment, because they contributed to the success of the run and their contribution made a difference. Lots of positive feelings. Fun. And isn't that what a game is about?

 

The group mentality plays a huge role imo. I see often posts here on the forum that complain about rude behaviour against beginners/casuals which leads to some people not doing operations at all. 8M ops are really more laid back and people are much more patient in my experience. How people behave in group content is important for a MMO.

 

Overall, in my opinion and experience....8M ops are the better game experience especially for casuals and beginners.

 

 

 

Agreed.

I would guess he's laughing about that because when you say 8m is easier and then follow up with it makes people try harder because there is less margin for error, you are being illogical and contradicting yourself. There is no logical progression of cause and effect in those statements and it ends up looking like you just pulled words out of your rear-end and strung them together in sentences that support your idea.

You're basically trying to argue that 8-man is easier because 8-man is harder.

The change just happened, give it some time. Could the atmosphere difference be because before today only the 8 man ops could be done through the op finder? Maybe the laid back vibe is due to the people that go through the op finder and not directly related to the group size mentality. As for ease, 8 man through op finder had bolster, the non op finder 16 man did not....maybe it was harder because some people were under geared?

I am excited about this change. The tank:dps ratio is much better, and now casual raiders can get alot more ultimate coms per run.

I would guess he's laughing about that because when you say 8m is easier and then follow up with it makes people try harder because there is less margin for error, you are being illogical and contradicting yourself. There is no logical progression of cause and effect in those statements and it ends up looking like you just pulled words out of your rear-end and strung them together in sentences that support your idea.

 

You're basically trying to argue that 8-man is easier because 8-man is harder.

Quote the post pls where I said 8M is easier. And then stick your post into your rear-end.

There is a differenece between easier and having a higher rate of success. 8M in my experience has a higher rate of success, because everybody in the group is doing their best to succeed, In 16M ops too many people don't give a crap and therefore the probability of failing is much higher.

Edit: No matter which one is slightly harder than the other one, SM isn't hard anyway.

Quote the post pls where I said 8M is easier. And then stick your post into your rear-end.

 

There is a differenece between easier and having a higher rate of success. 8M in my experience has a higher rate of success, because everybody in the group is doing their best to succeed, In 16M ops too many people don't give a crap and therefore the probability of failing is much higher.

 

Edit: No matter which one is slightly harder than the other one, SM isn't hard anyway.

And others are saying they are seeing a higher rate of success in 16M.

I personally have seen many, many 8M ops go down and out, and very few 16M fail. Does that invalidate your opinion, no. But it does point out that it is merely your opinion. Please leave out terms of probability, since that has zero correlation with what you happen to believe.

If you can't comprehend that your personal experience != anyone in a 16M don't give a crap, please look up confirmation bias. And then stick your post into your rear-end.

I've found 8m DP easier than 16 - as others have said it's easier to coordinate. Still, that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately with the huge increase in rewards, this tank will only be running 2 operations per week, rather than 4. I didn't mind taking a little hit and wasting a few comms before, but now that I'll basically hit the cap with 2 operations, I won't bother doing S&V (length) or DP (likelihood of wipes).

My experience as well sid that people are less friendly in 16m. Not once in dozens of 8m did I see ninja looting, yet yesterday's 16m was rife.

I was not happy when it went and after a few frustrating weeks doing the 8m gf i gave up on gf raids and went back to fleet organized 16m runs. Personally i am glad of the return of the 16m group finder, for several reasons.

1. As a dps only player (i hate tanking and suck as a healer so bad it ruins groups), i never got queue pops when it was 10 ults reward, even when it was increased to 30 it still took ages. The 16m version pops alot faster.

2. More ults, in the 16m you get ults from the boss in 8m you do not. As a player with 10 max level chars (plus a 20 and 33 being worked on) the quicker i can cap elites and ults the better.

3. Better chances of completion. I have seen posts saying that 16m falls apart more often than 8m. My experience has been the opposite, i have had alot of 8m fall apart on dp last boss and on df second boss. In 16m it is very rare that the full run is not completed. Ok there might be a wipe here and there, and the odd people rage leave when it requires some challenge to down a boss, but it is easy enough to get a replacement, where in 8m the group just collapses completely.

The only bad thing on the return of the 16m at this time, is the fact i am determined to get 16chars so i have each class and ac since i have the 12X boost. So i gotta wait till the new xpac to return to the 16m gf. My choice true but wish i could do both lol.

I was not happy when it went and after a few frustrating weeks doing the 8m gf i gave up on gf raids and went back to fleet organized 16m runs. Personally i am glad of the return of the 16m group finder, for several reasons.

So you were unhappy but at least you had options. 8-man fleet pugs are not going to happen because 0 comms. The 8-man GF situation was more balanced because the rewards were pretty much evenly split between both modes, but now one mode gets all the rewards and the other gets nothing. It's a ****ed up situation and it's 100% because of Bioware's arbitrary decision. It doesn't even have anything to do with the inherent qualities of one mode or the other.

Anyone saying that 16 man groups fall apart more than 8 groups is absolutely correct.

However..

They only fell apart because people would join for the first 2 or 3 bosses + weekly boss and then quit since the little amount of Ultimate Commendations gained from the bosses after the weekly didn't make it worth finishing.

With the Ultimate Commendations off every boss, plus the weekly reward, plus the 30 (or more? I thought I read they were increasing the group finder reward?) from completing the Operation, it'll give people enough incentive enough to not quit at the Weekly.

It's a good thing.

I was not happy when it went and after a few frustrating weeks doing the 8m gf i gave up on gf raids and went back to fleet organized 16m runs. Personally i am glad of the return of the 16m group finder, for several reasons.

 

1. As a dps only player (i hate tanking and suck as a healer so bad it ruins groups), i never got queue pops when it was 10 ults reward, even when it was increased to 30 it still took ages. The 16m version pops alot faster.

 

2. More ults, in the 16m you get ults from the boss in 8m you do not. As a player with 10 max level chars (plus a 20 and 33 being worked on) the quicker i can cap elites and ults the better.

 

3. Better chances of completion. I have seen posts saying that 16m falls apart more often than 8m. My experience has been the opposite, i have had alot of 8m fall apart on dp last boss and on df second boss. In 16m it is very rare that the full run is not completed. Ok there might be a wipe here and there, and the odd people rage leave when it requires some challenge to down a boss, but it is easy enough to get a replacement, where in 8m the group just collapses completely.

 

The only bad thing on the return of the 16m at this time, is the fact i am determined to get 16chars so i have each class and ac since i have the 12X boost. So i gotta wait till the new xpac to return to the 16m gf. My choice true but wish i could do both lol.

So your response to having long queue times as a DPS is to make a crap load of DPS toons?

Most goupfinder PUGs are formed on fleet anyway and then use groupfinder only when the group is ready to go.

And others are saying they are seeing a higher rate of success in 16M.

I personally have seen many, many 8M ops go down and out, and very few 16M fail. Does that invalidate your opinion, no. But it does point out that it is merely your opinion. Please leave out terms of probability, since that has zero correlation with what you happen to believe.

 

If you can't comprehend that your personal experience != anyone in a 16M don't give a crap, please look up confirmation bias. And then stick your post into your rear-end.

My opinion is that the probability is very high that you are just one of these people who can't be bothered with handling even the tiniest bit of mechanics and therefore hide in the DPS crowd, hit the boss randomly and hope that other people in the group will make up for your lack of contribution to the group's success. Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against new or less skilled players, I just appreciate it if people actuallly try to contribute over people who let others do the dirty work.

People seem to be forgetting that the OPs GF was briefly 16man not too long ago and that 16man was the intent of the devs. It was unworkable at the time and so they reverted it to 8man. They have fixed whatever the "technical difficulties" were and now we have 16man GF Ops....as intended.

I'd guess because the idea of group finder is to queue and get grouped with some random people, not create an 8 man ops group + get extra rewards for using group finder.

And I think this is a significant piece of the puzzle too. I know that my guild took advantage of the Ops GF a lot because we only needed 8. Gotta be honest, now we are probably less likely to use it though - unless we have the 2 tanks and at least 2 healers in guild so we can simply PuG everything else (carrying many DPS and a couple of so-so healers is not a chore, but PuGing tanks is a recipe for disaster (in our collective experience).

Not sure what your problem is. My point was exactly that 8M brings in more casuals and beginners. In my 8M runs these people enjoyed the ops much more, cause the whole atmosphere was more relaxed than in 16M where you got all the rude and impatient people. Behaviour in smaller groups is just different, because you cannot hide in the crowd. And of course they try harder in 8M, because it actually matters what they do, while in 16M it doesn't matter. Best thing in 8M groupfinder was to guide casuals/beginners through the ops and council especially and then to see the reactions. Feeling of accomplishment, because they contributed to the success of the run and their contribution made a difference. Lots of positive feelings. Fun. And isn't that what a game is about?

 

The group mentality plays a huge role imo. I see often posts here on the forum that complain about rude behaviour against beginners/casuals which leads to some people not doing operations at all. 8M ops are really more laid back and people are much more patient in my experience. How people behave in group content is important for a MMO.

 

Overall, in my opinion and experience....8M ops are the better game experience especially for casuals and beginners.

 

 

 

Agreed.

As someone else stated, your stance is a direct contradiction.