Representing ALL PEOPLE is NOT too far

Agreed.

Representing ALL PEOPLE is NOT too far

But we aren't representing ALL people now are we? Such a thing is impossible. Unless of course you are just talking about your select group of "special" people, which itself opens up a big can of worms.

And what good is a representative if they are just a token one-dimension waste of time and space that are just insulting to the people they are supposed to be representing?

I still haven't seen anyone in this thread come up with a real explanation of HOW this could be done without just being obnoxious about it.

The devil is in the details.

But we aren't representing ALL people now are we? Such a thing is impossible. Unless of course you are just talking about your select group of "special" people, which itself opens up a big can of worms.

 

And what good is a representative if they are just a token one-dimension waste of time and space that are just insulting to the people they are supposed to be representing?

 

 

I still haven't seen anyone in this thread come up with a real explanation of HOW this could be done without just being obnoxious about it.

 

The devil is in the details.

Where did you get the word special from ? You are saying that people being represented is a waste of time and space, yet somehow insulting at the same time ? What's insulting is NOT seeing representation, hence the entire point of this thread from what anyone can garner (even yourself it seems ?)

There are some good educational materials to find online too about the subject and BioWare would need to read up (if they haven't or don't know someone keen on the subject) in order to it the best way that brings a good story to the game and furthers the inclusiveness of the Star Wars world.

Where did you get the word special from ? You are saying that people being represented is a waste of time and space, yet somehow insulting at the same time ? What's insulting is NOT seeing representation, hence the entire point of this thread from what anyone can garner (even yourself it seems ?)

 

There are some good educational materials to find online too about the subject and BioWare would need to read up (if they haven't or don't know someone keen on the subject) in order to it the best way that brings a good story to the game and furthers the inclusiveness of the Star Wars world.

I was using quotes in this case to emphasize the subjectivity of the idea, not to quote you personally. The point is that there are an impossible number of different people to represent here, how can we make it a focus to represent them all? It becomes more feasible to represent only a select group of people, however that opens up a big can of worms (notably, who gets to decide which set of socially/politically sensitive get represented)

Ok, somewhat ambiguously phrased on my part I suppose, what I mean by "what's the point if..." is that if all we get is token one-dimensional characters out of their attempt to be inclusive, what's the point? It's just insulting.

To take an example from my own life, I'm legally blind. This means getting a job is extremely difficult due to the simple fact most employers see it as a risk. Notable exceptions are government and large corporations (particularly banks) who specifically hire people with disabilities, not because they are (or may not be) just as qualified for the job, but simply so the can have PR brownie points. In other words, token employees. On the one hand, they are providing employment for a grossly under employed segment of the population, but on the other, it's infuriating to think you are just there so some corporate exec making millions a year can show off their inclusivity credentials. Should we congratulate them because they are doing a little good for all the wrong reasons, and propagating a negative culture to the wider industry in the process?

Coming back here, if BW were to introduce a trans character (somehow) for the sole purpose of demonstrating how they can be inclusive, how would a trans person likely respond? "Thanks BW for representing me!" or "FU BW, there's more to trans people than being trans!" Like PR happy employers, why should we congratulate them for doing something for all the wrong reasons? When motives are skewed, so are the results. i for one do not want to condone this.

As for educational materials, citation needed, filtering by game engine limitations and the not quite parallel fantasy culture that this game inhabits. How could it be done properly?

Why is there such a need to force a set of views on others playing this or any other game?

The same justification was used, and continues to be used, during conversations regarding SSR/SGR. Why am I forced to have heteronormative views forced on me?

Hi I'd like to start off by saying thanks to the swtor staff and community for their great representation of lgbt characters and choices however speaking as a trans person I am still holding out hoping for the inclusion of a character even a non romanceable one that more directly represents myself and other individuals like me I know it is a bit of a longshot but still I remain forever in hope as I am a huge star war fan and especially a fan of swtor please share your two cents:o:o

I just wish they offered more options in character creation, they offer only a few now, which is better than none granted but they could do a lot better.

More makeup options for men, and allow clothes to be worn by everyone not make the clothes specific according to male or female. Also make more hairstyles available that are wearable by all and not dictated by male/female.

I realize your post was regarding companions more than our own characters but your request requires far more coding and money, voice acting, etc. My request would be far more easy to do imo.

I tried hard to create a feminine looking trans who I had a great story in mind for but I really struggled to find the look I wanted. Also, I was left having to pick a human because the alien races have even less options available.

The same justification was used, and continues to be used, during conversations regarding SSR/SGR. Why am I forced to have heteronormative views forced on me?

Expecting others to empathize and put themselves in your shoes can sometimes be an impossibility but good on you for reversing the situation.

Sadly most people are incapable of seeing anything from any other perspective but out their own lens.

Why is there such a need to force a set of views on others playing this or any other game?

Except no one is forcing you to. The option would be there if you wanted to. Right now it's not, and as such BW is actually pushing people to only choose between two binary choices, so your argument is actually reversed. Gender is not binary.

There are many more flaws in your questions but other people have already brought them to light. Not going to beat a dog when they're already down.

Nope, quite an interesting species. Something similar happens to Argonians in The Elder Scrolls saga, they're able to change their gender through a ritual with the Hist Trees.

It must be a common trope in scifi. My go to for this trope is Ursula K. Leguin's The Left Hand of Darkness.

 

How would you represent gender, though? Medicine should be advanced enough so reassignment surgery should be perfect and only a matter of being able to afford it, so we are really only talking about those embracing their non-binarity, which again isn't really something you would know outside of a relation.

 

That guy dating a tentacle-headed alien should be beyond caring about the naughty bits of their androgynous looking neighbor. Same for the "humanity first" dork. you're human, that means you're his friend in this galaxy of freaks. There are no gender-roles to challenge either, nobody raises an eyebrow at a burly female in combat armor. Bearded guy(?) wearing a ball gown? Meet my mate the giant slug and her husband the green bunny rabbit.

 

 

In the end it depends on whether you want to see western society's transgender issues mirrored in the game universe, or whether you want to see them demonstrated as non-issues, because diversity is the golden theme here.

This neatly sums up the major problems. It would have to be done well and I don't think BW is the team to tackle it. We'd end up with tomboys. However, as a token gesture, I'd be fine with Lhance's suggestion: if BW unlocked jewelry, cosmetics, and female wear to both genders. That would be a simple change they could stealth-add.

And they should stealth-add it because then it wouldn't be virtue signalling, and more to the point, wouldn't make all the incels in this thread freak out because BW is pandering to the woke apparatchiks that secretly rule over us.

The idea of switching genders in sufficiently advanced space-faring societies also reminds me of the Culture Series. That would make a great game setting.

One: we don't need to represent all people. Everytime you forcefully represent one person in a role then you are preventing every other person from being represented in that role. For example if there is a protagonist who is trans then everyone who isn't trans is no longer capable of considering themselves represented by that trans protagonist because they aren't trans.

Two: if the character is a good representation of a transperson then you shouldn't even know they are trans. They should want to be considered the gender they are trying to be and shouldn't want to be known as a transperson instead.

To quote the god satellite from Futurama: "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Three: Krem is offensive to everyone with a brain but not because Krem is trans but because Krem was an offensive violation of Qunari lore and philosophy. The Qunari society is essentially a fictionally realized version of the imaginary civilization discussed by Socrates in The Republic. Each person is born to fill a role and they are born with a BODY AND MIND suited to filling that role. All members of the Qunari are content to fill the role to which they were born to fill: To quote Sten on Qunari philosophy and society when he was comparing Ferelden to his homeland: "[n]o one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are." If you play as a female character then Sten is surprised you are allowed to fight and are capable of fighting. From Sten's point of view every person born with a uterus has always been content and wanted to fulfill a woman's role (I do not remember the precise roles women held in Qunari society because it has been over a decade since I played DA:O). It is only towards the end of the game that Sten is ready to acknowledge that he might have been wrong for thinking you are unsuitable to fight on the front lines because you're a woman. Having Krem be a woman who wants to be regarded as a man contradicts the established lore from Dragon Age: Origins.

I mean Krem wasn't the worst thing about DA:I but it is an example of the ridiculous amount of inconsistency between DA:I and the two prior games.

My main concern here is doing it well, when representing any given minority you need to treat a character like that with respect but at the same time be careful not to have that character's personality be only his identity, etc. Otherwise you risk making a caricature which does not serve the purpose of representation in my opinion. That being said I think with characters like Krem from DAI Bioware certainly learned how to represent transgenders better than they did in the past so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

 

 

There had been a few gay characters within the novels during the Lucas era, plus Lucas isn't in charge anymore and while I do think we should respect the man's vision I don't see how adding LGBT characters to Star Wars would be a violation of that. post vanilla SWTOR is still very Star Wars and it has LGBT characters.

The thing with star wars is that the in universe solution was that there are no sexuality identificators there, everyone went with whoever they wanted to, that was not however fully explored because it used to be controversial af. It can be done now, but not then,future readers should tale that into consideration

Hi I'd like to start off by saying thanks to the swtor staff and community for their great representation of lgbt characters and choices however speaking as a trans person I am still holding out hoping for the inclusion of a character even a non romanceable one that more directly represents myself and other individuals like me I know it is a bit of a longshot but still I remain forever in hope as I am a huge star war fan and especially a fan of swtor please share your two cents:o:o

Exactly what is it you want? They are making NPC's romance-able now by male AND female characters, available hair colors run the spectrum, and anyone can wear a dress. Seriously?!?....what are you asking them to do??

Three: Krem is offensive to everyone with a brain but not because Krem is trans but because Krem was an offensive violation of Qunari lore and philosophy. The Qunari society is essentially a fictionally realized version of the imaginary civilization discussed by Socrates in The Republic. Each person is born to fill a role and they are born with a BODY AND MIND suited to filling that role. All members of the Qunari are content to fill the role to which they were born to fill: To quote Sten on Qunari philosophy and society when he was comparing Ferelden to his homeland: "[n]o one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are." If you play as a female character then Sten is surprised you are allowed to fight and are capable of fighting. From Sten's point of view every person born with a uterus has always been content and wanted to fulfill a woman's role (I do not remember the precise roles women held in Qunari society because it has been over a decade since I played DA:O). It is only towards the end of the game that Sten is ready to acknowledge that he might have been wrong for thinking you are unsuitable to fight on the front lines because you're a woman. Having Krem be a woman who wants to be regarded as a man contradicts the established lore from Dragon Age: Origins.

 

I mean Krem wasn't the worst thing about DA:I but it is an example of the ridiculous amount of inconsistency between DA:I and the two prior games.

Krem is not Qunari. Krem is human born in the Tevinter Imperium. Krem joined Iron Bull's mercenary company. Iron Bull is Qunari. Iron Bull explained the concept of Aqun-Athlok to Krem. Aqun-Athlok means "born as one gender but living like another." Did you even play DA:I? I know I didn't but it was easy enough to find out you're wrong by just reading the DA wiki. Also, Iron Bull, or Hissrad, was born to be a warrior but was moved to the Ben-Hassrath because his Tama believed it better suited him. Not everyone sticks with the role they are "born" to. Also also, DA has absolutely nothing to do with SW unless the world of DA is somewhere in the Unknown Regions.

Our modern bi system is not a part of the Star Wars system as they deal with over 5 million different species who represent all sorts of different biologic systems, lifestyles, and choices.

My view of the technology level at times in the Star Wars galaxy waxes and wains depending not just when in the time line you are but where in the galaxy.

How would any child know they are transgendered if from birth they have had proper medical treatment that could have identified this at a very young age and been medically corrected with a procedure they got from the Gree or from the Clawdites to genetically modify you to be female or male. The psychological testing and the medical testing would find the signs needed to make the change would be no problem with a universe that can make cyborgs or androids that look perfectly human, a Human replica droid named Guri, later purchased by Prince Xizor. Not even a scanner could tell she was not a meatbag.

The only thing that would define a trans gender would be how they speak, but even then their voice box could be genetically modified to be female sounding without active effort or training. Everything about being trans and fitting in, with passing would be perfect so only if you are told they were male or female or in-between is the only way you would be able to know other than they are presented.

Other than that making all outfits being able to be worn by both sexes. Making all options in character design universal to all classes and sexes could someone show a feminine male or a masculine female (other than body type 3 females who dance like the guys). To allowing a male toon to dance like a female or a female like a male. There is very little in the way of making such a distinction without making it the sole reason for such an NPC in the game.

Final point. In a world in a galaxy engulfed in war and conflict on nearly all planets much of the concerns of a peaceful society go away when the question of where your next meal is coming from is all you think about. Your hero toon may have the best food available, but is dealing with a galaxy that is fighting over every bit of resources there is to have.

A galaxy where Jedi and Sith, Light and Dark, Good and Evil are the defining conflict and issues of the time. GID is a medically treated issue it is like having a sixth toe that makes it a non issue to anyone in the Star Wars Galaxy. Twenty five thousand years separate them from us.

Transgender are represented you just cant see it as they all pass perfectly. Or how many guys run around as female toons or the few girls who run around as male toons, and no one says a thing?

[big Closet, FictionMania]

And the original canon Hutts were hermaphrodites usually identifying as one gender, some of them being attracted to humanoids of the "opposite" sex

 

As for the OP, IMO the problem is in representation here, sexual orientation is one thing, if there are gay/bi NPCs that aren't just player-sexual, I can't remember them, so they're pretty well done, because how would you know if they aren't having a parade celebrating stereotypes?

 

How would you represent gender, though? Medicine should be advanced enough so reassignment surgery should be perfect and only a matter of being able to afford it, so we are really only talking about those embracing their non-binarity, which again isn't really something you would know outside of a relation.

 

That guy dating a tentacle-headed alien should be beyond caring about the naughty bits of their androgynous looking neighbor. Same for the "humanity first" dork. you're human, that means you're his friend in this galaxy of freaks. There are no gender-roles to challenge either, nobody raises an eyebrow at a burly female in combat armor. Bearded guy(?) wearing a ball gown? Meet my mate the giant slug and her husband the green bunny rabbit.

 

 

In the end it depends on whether you want to see western society's transgender issues mirrored in the game universe, or whether you want to see them demonstrated as non-issues, because diversity is the golden theme here.

This point markets the answer well and politely. In an advanced age of medicine, "transgender" would be a thing of the past, you could be any gender you wanted, or gender less. Since relationships exist in swtor galaxy between varied species, you can even argue star wars is in fact more progressive than modern day earth is even capable of, imagine trying to marry your dog? You can do that in star wars galaxy.

Why are people so obsessed with sex?

It feels good and makes babies.