Keith (Keith is driving this or at the very least signing off on it)

You keep up this level of collaboration and communication and you can give armor sets to whoever the hell you like without a word coming from me....

I am quietly positive for this games future.

So it is interesting to finally see Bioware's logic for class balancing, and we thank you for showing it to us.

But isn't the game about a lot more than just the raw numbers? No one would complain about Arsenal/Gunnery burst if they were actually killable without 3 heal2full abilities popping into the game. And even if you look at pure numbers, Lightning sorcerer is severely underperforming.

Lastly, you said the story for Sorc heals is the same as Arsenal Merc. And you didn't mention Arsenal Merc on your OP list. Meaning... they're not being nerfed????

I understand if Mercs are at the target DPS they don't deserve a DPS nerf, but why not give them a utility/DCD/mobility nerf? You said you don't want to modify utitlies for classes that aren't at the target, so if Mercs are AT the target... you're gonna play with their utilities right????

Hopefully you can answer some of these concerns, because you can see a lot of players are very unhappy that Mercs are being allowed to continue to overperform. And if this isn't addressed by July, that'd mean Ranked Season 8 belonged entirely to the Mercs

Please address this Eric/Keith.

Most of the posters here are concerned with PvP balance. I'm going to assume that you aren't changing utilities because it's harder to implement outside an expansion. A heads up though that most of the feedback you will receive in the upcoming class discussion threads will be about utilities and defenses in PvP.

That's not to say that the OP is misdirected. If your output targets are based on class roles, one can assume that PvE encounters will be balanced around those targets to make sure that even the lower DPS specs will be able to complete those encounters, provided proper gear levels. But then that begs the question, how much can you expect gear scaling to affect your output targets at specific gear levels? Players will min/max whatever stats they find the most beneficial. Will that possible affect your targets?

While it is commonly accepted that sustained/DOT specs have ramp up time issues, in this particular game you also have some sustained/DOT specs doing single [un-ramped up] instant attacks that are doing the damage of a burst spec [Annihilate for example.] and so some of these "differences" aren't quite as cut and dry as is being presented in this latest class balancing release explaination.

Given how this release has brought the topic of the differences in spec types [burst/sustained/DOT specs], without delving to much into all these new cateogories they have just thrown together out of no where that we haven't really heard before in any organized manner [ Quasi Burst, Semi- Sustained etc heh], and the concerns people are expressing I thought the following might be appropriate to introduce here.

The following is an excerpt from a noted a former player and theorycrafter whom virtually the entire end game gaming community trusted and respected for his long and hard work in game mechanics/structure and how players can best equip themselves and perform their rotations for the best potential gains, Bant. While unofficial, his recommendations are at the heart of many players game design and build make up. Most people consider his long and hard work done of behalf of his fellow players as corrisponding to their general game experiences and the faith placed in much of his work is something that should be considered in the validity of his expression on the differences in the spec types as they actually operate in this game.

This pertains directly to the differences between Burst and sustained/DOT specs.

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

This except can be found on this very same website at http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924810.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the highest skilled players need to remain still to cast abilities don't they?

Yes, but if you know a certain mechanics is coming that will force you to move, you can line up you rotation so that you can use your instants while doing said mechanic and use your casts/channels while you don't have to move. This can be done especially with snipers. Most of engineering's move are instant. In marksman you can save corrosive dart for a couple gcd's as well as instant snipe and you can quickly do a move and hit followthrough. In virulence you can save takedown or instant lethal shot if it isn't in a dot window (where you have instants lined up anyways). It's all about maximizing uptime without sacrificing dps.

Yes, but if you know a certain mechanics is coming that will force you to move, you can line up you rotation so that you can use your instants while doing said mechanic and use your casts/channels while you don't have to move. This can be done especially with snipers. Most of engineering's move are instant. In marksman you can save corrosive dart for a couple gcd's as well as instant snipe and you can quickly do a move and hit followthrough. In virulence you can save takedown or instant lethal shot if it isn't in a dot window (where you have instants lined up anyways). It's all about maximizing uptime without sacrificing dps.

I see you missed my point entirely. I said if ranged classes had to cast more they would be at a disadvantage to melee, and you follow up by explaining how classes with plenty on instant attacks can manage to keep up with melee. You missed my point, but thank you for proving it.

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

As long as all specs are capable of clearing all content then I don't see any problem with your design philosophy. There is always the possibility that certain specs will be sat out of operations for not having enough output, but that is entirely up to the players.

And in the end that's really all that matters: clearing content with whatever class you want to play. Worrying about how much DPS a certain spec does over another is simply epeen stroking.

[...]

 

Lastly, you said the story for Sorc heals is the same as Arsenal Merc. And you didn't mention Arsenal Merc on your OP list. Meaning... they're not being nerfed????

 

I understand if Mercs are at the target DPS they don't deserve a DPS nerf, but why not give them a utility/DCD/mobility nerf? You said you don't want to modify utitlies for classes that aren't at the target, so if Mercs are AT the target... you're gonna play with their utilities right????

[...]

 

The story for Sorc heals is they've been overperforming (in pvp) since 3.3.

In 4.x they nerfed the resource management and that was it. That changed absolutely nothing and they're still overperforming today. That change only had some impact in PvE.

If the arsenal merc story is the same as sorc heals then I imagine they're going to nerf the damage and leave everything else untouched. So mercs will keep overperfoming. *facepalm*

That's what I understand from Arsenal merc story being the same one as sorc heals. I hope I'm wrong...

Hey combat team,

TLDR: Fix IO merc dotspread

Thanks for sharing this information. I have something I would like to point out. You are not taking AOE potential into account, and that is a problem.

AOE damage is very important in a lot of PVE fights and in PVP. I am worried about IO mercs. Looking at snipers sustained, who have a dotspread in rotation (corrosive grenade) or some even better AOE potential (probe/orbital/grenade) in engi. Looking at sorc sustained, who have dotspread in rotation (death field).

The dotspread in IO is very energy negative, and cannot be used while keeping an optimal single target rotation if you have no heat management cooldowns up. Both abilities that spread are not in the single target rotation. This gives a very big disadvantage to IO mercs compared to other range sustained classes.

When comparing to melee classes we can say the same. Anni need to add an ability in rotation, which very slightly reduces single target but doesn't **** up the whole rotation, same for hatred and lethality (though 1 of their dots spreads already). Vengeance jugg doesn't have to change rotation and I don't know about PTs (never played pyro).

IO is by far the worst dotspread. A simple way to fix it is to make incendiary missile be an AOE dot (like corrosive grenade) and make it spread serrated shot. Another way is to make suppression fire spread the dots, or have both dots spread with either explosive dart or fusion missile. Needing to use 2 attacks to spread the dots is very annoying.

If you don't want to make dotspread easier for IO, it needs to have an edge over other range sustained on single target, else IO has no point.

Thanks for considering this!

So EAWare's rules for class balancing come from Opposite Land... got it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the increased communication and this show of transparency. I think it's great. Please keep it up, Keith and Eric and Charles! But I am having a massive facepalm moment over here, since it seems (in my opinion) the combat team are going about class balancing entirely backwards.

Why even put a forum up asking for our feedback on class changes if you're going to ignore it and do a simple stat nerf or buff.... PT tanks for example are one of the most squishy classes in pvp... explain this.

Yeah, the lack of any sign of love for Vanguard/Powertech tanks anywhere in the future is really depressing. They're the squishiest tanks in PvE too right now, and have the worst time holding aggro, and have by far the worst utility choices and DCDs of all the tanks currently in the game... sigh.

You are going to change Mercs Damage and Healing and not touch their utilities. I mean that's kind of exactly what you're saying. And that's also the exact opposite of what you should do.

 

Doc said it very well. Utilities and that sort of stuff can have just as big an impact.. if not a much bigger one than damage or healing being out of line. I think it's pretty easy to see if a specs damage is out of line or not gathering from experience in PvE. I will tell you straight up that I don't think Mercs are overperforming at all right now when it comes to that.

 

However.. when you go into PvP, they are suddenly living, breathing hovertanks.

They literally take twice if not thrice the firepower to kill from your average Assassin, Marauder or Juggernaut.

Nerfing innovative ordinance's damage would be a massive mistake. Innovative ordinance already has such a small sustained single target advantage over arsenal that it often makes sense to run arsenal on fights where innovative ordinance should be superior simply because arsenals rotation is easier and has easier heat management. If anything, innovative ordinance should do slightly more single target sustained damage. Please reconsider your thought process vis-a-vis nerfing innovative ordinance.

So EAWare's rules for class balancing come from Opposite Land... got it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the increased communication and this show of transparency. I think it's great. Please keep it up, Keith and Eric and Charles! But I am having a massive facepalm moment over here, since it seems (in my opinion) the combat team are going about class balancing entirely backwards.

That's more or less where I am at too. Seriously, TYVM for the communication, it's great! But this approach is just very different than the reality of what needs to be done to address actual issues in the warzones in 5.0.

Which have been described in detail, for months, in the PvP forums.

ad infinitum.

I see you missed my point entirely. I said if ranged classes had to cast more they would be at a disadvantage to melee, and you follow up by explaining how classes with plenty on instant attacks can manage to keep up with melee. You missed my point, but thank you for proving it.

I'd much rather there be thinking ahead with what abilities you're going to use in combination with mechanics than mindlessly doing a rotation. If you want to make ranged classes significantly easier in ops, ok but I don't want to play a braindead class.

Not reacting to huge utility problems in PvP is par for the course in this game.

How long did bubble stun last?

How long was undying rage the most OP mechanic in ranked?

Guess we are getting a full year at least of Merc domination the solo queue. Look at your average Merc in a 4 DPS game, they can take about 600k of damage. Your average Sin can take about 280k. How do your metrics not show that as the glaring problem?

I'd much rather there be thinking ahead with what abilities you're going to use in combination with mechanics than mindlessly doing a rotation. If you want to make ranged classes significantly easier in ops, ok but I don't want to play a braindead class.

Whatever gave you the idea that I want ranged classes to be easier in ops? If you were paying attention to the poster I originally quoted, you'd realize I was making the point that ranged classes wouldn't be superior to melee classes in PvE if they were forced to cast more in encounters that required more mobility.

So EAWare's rules for class balancing come from Opposite Land... got it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the increased communication and this show of transparency. I think it's great. Please keep it up, Keith and Eric and Charles! But I am having a massive facepalm moment over here, since it seems (in my opinion) the combat team are going about class balancing entirely backwards.

I think it's particularly funny that they only consider damage taken for tanks, not considering damage mitigation, heals and survivability for DPS and healers at all.

Like.... why are DPS and HPS their only metrics for damage dealers and healers? At no point does someone stop to consider "hey maybe hearts SHOULDN'T facetank 3v1s" and "maybe no damage dealer should literally have 3 lives.

Whatever gave you the idea that I want ranged classes to be easier in ops? If you were paying attention to the poster I originally quoted, you'd realize I was making the point that ranged classes wouldn't be superior to melee classes in PvE if they were forced to cast more in encounters that required more mobility.

Making less options for rotation during ops=easier. Not hard to figure that out.

Making less options for rotation during ops=easier. Not hard to figure that out.

Whatever gave you the idea that I want less options for rotation?

Nice strawman btw.

Virulence a Quasi-Burst spec?!?!

 

Considering its highest burst comes after 3 whole GCD's worth of setup (Corrosive Dart, Corrosive Grenade, and Weakening Blast), I don't understand how its classified as this. IO is burstier than Virulence and its put as sustained.I also disagree with the 10% spread between top and bottom dps because its too large and causes certain specs to vastly outperform others, especially when survivability and the ways certain classes' defensives work are not taken into account.

You might have a point if you didn't skip the matter of IO energy system being total garbage.

Virulence boosts energy recovery from literally spamming double dots on anything in range. IO has to sustain the single target rotation for long periods to reach its best output and anything which isn't that starts writing an energy bill which needs paying, either with a CD, liberal use of default attack or doing nothing.

But sure, IO can do a decent burst if it stacks all the hard hitting abilities together. You just don't want to be forced to use it for that.

The damage labels might be wonky but Virulence is vastly better than IO in a messy fight.

Appreciate the intent, not so much the content.

Many have said it but it's worth repeating: without any consideration on how each class is countered there's no way of even beginning to address balance. Defensives are a big part of it, as is mobility, utilities and special abilities.

What's the point in dps brackets based on advantages/disadvantages, when there are blatant advantages in certain classes that are completely ignored?

Hopefully this isn't an empty gesture, and some feedback will get through. Or what's the point of transparency, even.

Whatever gave you the idea that I want less options for rotation?

 

Nice strawman btw.

I'd much rather there be thinking ahead with what abilities you're going to use in combination with mechanics than mindlessly doing a rotation.

Already said it right here. Removing instants and making more casts gives you less options when it comes to dealing with mechanics in ops. When a mechanics is coming up that will require you to move, if all you have is casts, there is no option in changing your rotation to deal with said mechanic, you just have to do your static rotation until the mechanic comes and there's nothing you can do about it. With instants, you can change your rotation slightly to incorporate those instants to be exactly when those mechanics occur and maximizing dps. This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

Hi Eric and Keith,

Thank you for the transparent info.

What I don't understand is why Lightning Sorcs, who are performing the worst in the game for both pvp and pve have been ignored over classes that are performing better. Unless all those other classes are getting nerfed all the way back to Lightning (not likely), then someone has made a serious mistake and "isn't listening" to the feed back.

Lightning hits like a wet noodle, the burst is so much lower than any of the other burst classes, both ranged and melee. Even sustained damage burst is higher or some other classes filler abilities are higher than Lightning Sorc burst.

I don't know what sort of parsing damage you are getting for Lightning, but in the real pve and pvp world they are a joke. Most OPs guys won't get invited to a group with a lightning Sorc or get booted fast and pvp Lightning is pathetic..

I understand you have limited resources and have to prioritise, but you have this the wrong way around. Please consider fitting Lightning into 5.3, it can't survive to 5.4, especially if those other classes are getting buffs.

Already said it right here. Removing instants and making more casts gives you less options when it comes to dealing with mechanics in ops. When a mechanics is coming up that will require you to move, if all you have is casts, there is no option in changing your rotation to deal with said mechanic, you just have to do your static rotation until the mechanic comes and there's nothing you can do about it. With instants, you can change your rotation slightly to incorporate those instants to be exactly when those mechanics occur and maximizing dps. This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

And that would make ranged classes less useful in high mobility fights! Exactly my point! If you have to move you cant cast! If you cant cast then melee become more useful than range! Exactly the point I was making in the first place! Genius!