Low/lower cost field respec.

 

This will alleviate so many issues (and griping) between balancing out PvE and PvP.

So the problem is never the class design, it is either bad players or too high expectations? So basically L2P? (or learn to re-roll). Am I reading that right? Edited July 13, 2012 by Ntranced

Oh! They picked my question!

 

Wasn't really the answer I was hoping for though. While Operatives/Scoundrels get some tools to stay within melee range, they don't get a lot to make up the distance. Sleep dart is only available in stealth. Flashbang and the one root/snare is 10 meter range. Stun is melee only. I'm not really aware of any other roots/snares that an Operative gets, besides a slow in the shared tree.

 

Glad to hear the devs are looking and talking about it though. Leaves me a little hope we might see improvement someday.

So the problem is never the class design, it is either bad players or too high expectations? So basically L2P? Am I reading that right?

 

Basically L2P and make the best of the current character according to the main patch, adapt and change tactics

So the problem is never the class design, it is either bad players or too high expectations? So basically L2P? Am I reading that right?

 

Yeah. Pretty much. And for the most part from what I have seen in-game and on the forums, I agree with him.

In regards to infil shadows.. LOL! I was an infiltration shadow since early access and a pretty good one imo. Pre 1.3 i was king of 1v1s and now ... ! I recently when onto youtube and rewatched some earlier vids on infil shadows and those guys in mosly champ gear were bursting more than what i can do now in full augmented WH. I understand Bioware raised the TTK, but if a dev says we're supposed to be a hit and run class, does that not mean we should pick a fight ( ala 1v1 ) kill him asap and then get out? or is it that i must jump someone burst down to maybe 40% and then saber strike him for a while before running away?? Best we can do now is have as much utility as possible for our team as balance and put out some sustainable deepz. I am honestly really saddened as I do not enjoy playing my MAIN anymore, so much for feeling heroic!

ROFL at the L2P comment about infiltration / deception specs.

Any new world needs to feel different from the worlds around it (in game terms, the worlds with level ranges just above or below its own), and it needs to push the overall themes of the story forward. So we might start with basic requirements like "We want to show the Republic going on the offensive," and "We want a wilderness world, since we've done a lot of urbanized planets lately." Defining these basic requirements isn't too difficult--they can usually be determined with an hour or two of group discussion.

After that, it gets more difficult. Figuring out the details of the world (including whether we want a canon planet to fill the role, or if we want to create a new planet altogether) takes much longer, but the basic criteria stay the same: Does the backstory fit the requirements outlined? Does the planet sound fun to play through? Is it practical? (If the art department can't build a planet full of, say, 90-foot-tall giants who use buildings as melee weapons, then that idea isn't practical, no matter what writing may want). Elements that contribute to the overall goals of the planet are retained; elements that don't get put to one side.

 

Writing, art and world design work together closely during this process, and if all goes well, we get a planet that has a clear purpose while being broad enough to support a wide variety of interesting missions.

 

Well that's a bit sad. I mean sure there'd be worlds which might help either the Republic or the Empire but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful. As you can see in this thread, I've listed all the worlds which would be eligable and what significance they have during this era:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=212256

 

I mean I would love to be able to explore a world which has little technology or no spaceports just to explore, fight and look for resources or maybe it has some sort of significance just for the player. Just like how in Empire Strikes Back Luke visited Dagobah, it wasn't significant to the Empire or Rebel Alliance but just to Luke.

BobertCole: Could you elaborate please on what role you see deception Assassins playing? Are they close to operating in the way that was envisioned?

 

Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer): First, as to whether or not they're operating close to what we envision, the answer is "depends who the operator is." From the videos, logs, and anecdotes players provide us, it's really very much the answer for all specs - some people "get it" and play it to its potential, and some people don't. Frequently, the ones who "don't" are hitting brick walls because their expectations for what a spec should be like or should be capable of are different than what the spec is designed for.

 

In the case of Deception Assassins, we see and hear about a lot of players expecting to go toe-to-toe with tough enemies. They expect that since they're a melee spec, they should have the survivability they need to withstand the frontlines. That's true for some melee specs, but that's not what Deception Assassins were designed for. Deception should epitomize "hit-and-run" and "lone wolf" gameplay. Obviously that's less the case in Operations boss encounters, but if this is a question of sustained DPS, the short answer is that they hit within the same 5% "grace window" targeted by every DPS spec in the game.

 

In solo and PvP environments, Deception is meant to be a high burst, high mobility, shutdown spec. When played properly, they provide some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game. However, Deception is not a great partner. He can't take hits, his shutdown requires that he set the pace of the fight, and his escapes leave allies open and vulnerable to counterattacks. I say that, but I've seen players dash my expectations and turn Deception into a spectacular teammate. Unfortunately, I've seen many more players try to facetank and fail. Assassins have a great team support role - Darkness; they also have a great well-rounded, high utility role - Madness. We left Deception to take the opportunity to do something fun and very different, but that comes with the risk of missing player expectation. If you like Deception and you want to pull it off, my suggestion is that you pick your fights and plan ahead, but I'd also warn that Deception is a spec of extremes - I would not describe it as "well-rounded."

.

 

Dear Mr. Peckenpaugh,

 

I wanted to apologize on behalf of all the Deception Assassins who "dashed your expectations" by somehow managing to contribute to their team's success despite your design direction for this spec. You state that you intentionally designed Deception spec to be "not a great partner", or translated from PR speak: a BAD team player. Unfortunately, all our current PvP content is "Team-Based" Warzones. So, you're essentially saying that you intend for Deception spec to be "bad" at end-game PvP (rated Warzones), and that if we don't like it then there are other more viable Team/Utility specs (darkness/madness) for us to choose from. Don't worry, most of us already figured that out. Check your "logs and metrics" for % of active player assassins who are specced primarily Deception compared to Darkness or Madness (or Both). I’m sure you’ll find that most players have migrated to specs that give them greater opportunity to contribute to their team’s success in Team Objective based Warzones.

 

And that is just the PvP portion of the game, In PvE we have the choice to spec Tank (darkness) or DPS (madness/deception), however it has been statistically proven with parsed combat logs on multiple Ops boss encounters that Madness spec provides better sustained DPS given equal gearing and player skill. So again, why would you choose Deception spec when there is a superior alternative available in PvE? Also, if Deception spec is within 5% of your “DPS Target” (I’ll assume -5%), I don’t want to know what the Marauders are drinking because there’s over a 10% delta sustained DPS between these ACs.

 

I’m not here to whine, nor do I think that my preferred spec is unsalvageable, but hearing “it’s fine L2P” from the Senior Designer is NOT acceptable when enough people are repeatedly asking this question for it to be part of the weekly Q&A. Deception Sins are not looking for a push to the OP FOTM club, we are simply asking to have equal viability in PvE and PvP when compared to the other trees in our AC. Perhaps we could talk about reasonable solutions to the main issue that you mentioned of “being a poor partner”, and rather than change our gameplay style or DPS level we could get a tool we’re missing: group utility.

 

There is currently no reason to bring a Deception Sin over a Sniper or Marauder who have the same or better straight DPS plus group utility (armor pen, trauma debuff, bloodthirst, etc.) Something as simple as modifying Surging charge to place an armor penetration debuff on our target instead of giving this talented buff (via charge mastery) only to ourselves would begin to resolve issues in both PvE and PvP. We would have a group contribution that would benefit the WZ team focusing a target or Ops group fighting a boss, bringing us in line with other DPS with similar group utility benefits like Snipers and Marauders.

 

Also, being a “hit and run” design without the ability to “run” very often seems odd. Why is the talent for reduced CD on force speed and break rooting effects in the Tank tree again? Why is the CD for our “bail/vanish” ability roughly 3x as long as a Marauders? Perhaps if leaving combat during a WZ in order to access our stealth wasn’t harder than downing HM Kephess we would already have the tools we needed. Perhaps giving Deception Sins a 10 min CD that resets our other CDs (think Prep) would give us the tools we need to work this “hit and run” vision without allowing us the OP ability to bring those tools to every encounter.

 

That’s a few ideas right there from a guy who doesn’t get paid to think of this stuff. I’m sure the Assassin/Shadow community and your junior designers can do even better if they try. But, they DO need to try. Deception is very much in the same place that Carnage spec was before it was addressed, when it was clearly inferior to Annihilation, and it was buffed and brought in line and is now a viable choice, although the 2 Mara specs remain unique and have individual strengths and weaknesses. All we are asking for is a logical reason to play Deception spec. If you can do 85% of the DPS, have double the survivability, and gain team utility (ranged IC AOE, guard, pull, IC CC) by speccing Darkness/Madness hybrid why would you choose Deception? If you can DPS Ops bosses more efficiently as pure Madness spec why would you choose Deception?

 

You wouldn’t, which is why I am no longer providing your team with the “metrics and logs” that demonstrate that the spec is fine. Is it because I like Darkness or Madness better? No. It’s because they flat out ARE better for both end-game PvE and PvP, and until Deception becomes a vialble choice, your pool of Deception player's data is going to continue to dwindle.

 

Former Deception Assassin

Edited July 14, 2012 by IronmanSS

I did not read anywhere that they said Deception Assassins needed to L2P or wasn't good for team pvp/pve. It is my belief that they were just saying how Deception Assassins were not a class that openly fights like, say, a Pyrotech. As a Deception Assassin, I figure that it says it all in the name. Your goal is to win by deceit and assassination of the enemy. The lone enemy at a node not expecting a fight, that gunslinger running behind his group, the commando who stopped fighting to hide or heal himself out of sight... you know, pick em off one by one. The name of the class doesn't say, at least not to me, for you to walk up stealthed, pop out and obliterate your target just like that *snaps fingers*.

I did not read anywhere that they said Deception Assassins needed to L2P or wasn't good for team pvp/pve. It is my belief that they were just saying how Deception Assassins were not a class that openly fights like, say, a Pyrotech. As a Deception Assassin, I figure that it says it all in the name. Your goal is to win by deceit and assassination of the enemy. The lone enemy at a node not expecting a fight, that gunslinger running behind his group, the commando who stopped fighting to hide or heal himself out of sight... you know, pick em off one by one. The name of the class doesn't say, at least not to me, for you to walk up stealthed, pop out and obliterate your target just like that *snaps fingers*.

 

I do this all the time and i still don't always come off that great on my assassin, my Operative how ever can own face all day long using these tactics, simply put assassin aren't good enough at the 1 thing their meant to do which is hit and run, if you want to pick out targets, hit and run then roll an Operative. I really do think the deception assassin tree is not good enough at what it's meant to do and I'm very angry at the devs response of L2P(and yes this is what they said,), the rotation is easy so it's not that, i know how to pick out the right target at the right time and take it out, I've proven that to myself many times over on my Operative. So I'm pretty sure I've got the L2P part down but I'm still finding deception an inferior burst spec.

 

Basically what i can gather from the devs comments is they truly do see deception as a glass cannon spec, well that's true of the glass part, we do break easily but I'm not so Sure of the cannon.

Edited July 14, 2012 by deags

In the case of Deception Assassins, we see and hear about a lot of players expecting to go toe-to-toe with tough enemies. They expect that since they're a melee spec, they should have the survivability they need to withstand the frontlines. That's true for some melee specs, but that's not what Deception Assassins were designed for. Deception should epitomize "hit-and-run" and "lone wolf" gameplay.

 

when will they get the ability and/or open pvp to do so? warzones are obviously not ment for this play style because of not stopping combat timers for several minutes without fighting when you managed not to die while doing what you are ment for. the solution would be open pvp wich has been kicked out of the game...

so the only viable option would be to readress the options deception/inf has (and in the same way scoundrels/sabos too) to leave a fight. my suggestion would be an addition to the deception stance that resets the vanish timer when you have a finishing/killing hit on someone. its quit rubbish the way it is now beeing viable only 1/7 th of the time a WZ is played - because of beeing unable to reenter stealth wich is neccessary to fulfill the role you want us to play...

First, as to whether or not they're operating close to what we envision, the answer is "depends who the operator is." From the videos, logs, and anecdotes players provide us, it's really very much the answer for all specs - some people "get it" and play it to its potential, and some people don't. Frequently, the ones who "don't" are hitting brick walls because their expectations for what a spec should be like or should be capable of are different than what the spec is designed for.

 

The "rut" that Deception is in is less about player skill and more about numbers.

 

In the case of Deception Assassins, we see and hear about a lot of players expecting to go toe-to-toe with tough enemies. They expect that since they're a melee spec, they should have the survivability they need to withstand the frontlines. That's true for some melee specs, but that's not what Deception Assassins were designed for. Deception should epitomize "hit-and-run" and "lone wolf" gameplay. Obviously that's less the case in Operations boss encounters, but if this is a question of sustained DPS, the short answer is that they hit within the same 5% "grace window" targeted by every DPS spec in the game.

 

Good luck getting away with this in rateds. And because you mentioned operations, I feel obligated to remind you that we're doing laughable DPS in those, as well. Similar classes in other games aren't.

 

In solo and PvP environments, Deception is meant to be a high burst, high mobility, shutdown spec. When played properly, they provide some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game.

 

Good sir, it seems that you have this spec confused with Powertechs/Marauders and their Republic equivalents.

 

However, Deception is not a great partner.

 

Once again, good luck getting away with this in rateds.

 

He can't take hits, his shutdown requires that he set the pace of the fight, and his escapes leave allies open and vulnerable to counterattacks. I say that, but I've seen players dash my expectations and turn Deception into a spectacular teammate. Unfortunately, I've seen many more players try to facetank and fail. Assassins have a great team support role - Darkness; they also have a great well-rounded, high utility role - Madness. We left Deception to take the opportunity to do something fun and very different, but that comes with the risk of missing player expectation. If you like Deception and you want to pull it off, my suggestion is that you pick your fights and plan ahead, but I'd also warn that Deception is a spec of extremes - I would not describe it as "well-rounded."

 

It seems pretty evident to me that Deception was intended to be the "glass cannon" spec of the Assassin. The rogue archetype with light armor that does tons of damage that they can't take; oddly enough, this type of class does well in the organized PvP environments of other games. Not entirely because of player skill, but because of numbers. The damage that we should be doing simply isn't high enough.

 

For example, here's a suggestion: Surging Charge shares the same cooldown as Rail Shot. If you want us to provide "some of the highest burst and highest pressure in the game", then let Surging Discharge do damage equivalent to Rail Shot. Except, you know, there isn't a talent that takes Discharge off of cooldown and makes the next Discharge free. Which is fine.

 

I think that you'd see many more satisfied Deception Assassins if you simply tuned the numbers up (kind of like you did with Ravage/Master Strike).

 

Doubt that that will ever happen, though.

 

But Austin, thanks for taking the time to address this and thanks to BioWare for the Q&A. I know that you guys are trying your best.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Lazirus-

Obviously that's less the case in Operations boss encounters, but if this is a question of sustained DPS, the short answer is that they hit within the same 5% "grace window" targeted by every DPS spec in the game.

I would love to see those numbers.. They seem pulled out of nowhere!

Every numbers from 3rd party source says that we get less dps and same thing for simulation, its at least 10% not 5%. Maths doesnt lies!

 

I feel like playing a TBC Ret paladin all over again..

Edited July 14, 2012 by ElitehunterDS

*Removed my post, Put it in the wrong thread* T_T Edited July 14, 2012 by Ripcurldude

It becomes more and more apparent that devs like Austin Peckenpaugh have no idea what they're talking about or doing.

 

If shadows are supposed to have high burst DPS, where the hell is it? We don't even compare in burst to Focus Knights/Warriors or Pyro PTs/VGs, who are all very survivable classes with many tools to keep them alive. Why is the double project talent in the balance tree? Why does shadow technique proc half as often as every other technique, which makes us benifit less from combat readiness than all other specs. Notice how you also conveniently gave us a talent linked to combat readiness, even though it sucks for us. If we're supposed to "hit and run", why is our escape mechanic on a CD that is more than twice as long as that as a Mara/Sent? Why is the force speed talent located in the tank tree? The only thing the Deception spec deceived was you, Mr. Peckenpaugh. Sorry if we "dashed your expectations", but your expectations are garbage. Please tell me how I can dash them more so that a better developer might come along and save us from your abandonment.

Yeahhh, I don't normally keep up with the Devs and the Q&As, but this senior designer seems to not have an actual clue what playing a Infiltration Shadow/Deception Assassin is like.

 

The concept of catering to lone wolf gameplay seems nonsensical. In a solely team-based PVP endgame, "lone wolf" gameplay might as well mean "gimped" gameplay.

 

As for high mobility, where's the mobility coming from? We have no immediate abilities to close the distance, the kinetic/darkness tree has the buffs to Force Speed that make it viable as a distance closer, and we don't really have any of the charges that Tank Powertech/Vanguards or Jedi Knight/Sith Warriors have. Our "shutdown" you speak of comes from... what exactly? Low slash? With all the resolve it builds, it's good for one interrupt tops. It's not like we have the 6 second spell interrupt that Powertechs get in Advanced Prototype. What is this nonsense about "setting the pace of the fight"? Escapes? We have the same single option for "escape" that all Shadows have in Force Vanish. We can't just stun and walk away and restealth. Even if you chain low-slash into a force lift, or vanish/mindmaze, those are only useful as 1v1 escapes, and they're not even close to foolproof.

 

It actually sounds like devs WANTED Deception/Infiltration to be bad based on this.

 

I played an Infiltration Shadow since launch. I finally made the move to a Kinetic/Balance hybrid earlier this week, after months of trying to make it work in PVP. I've since seen a major boost in my utility, survivability, and thanks to the increase in uptime, I've even seen a boost in my damage done per match. Instead of losing half of my 1v1 matches against Maurauders and Powertechs, I am able to consistently win.

 

It's just insulting to see devs talk like this about the spec when it is so abundantly clear that it's sub-par. It's also really disturbing, and raises questions about what is likely to occur in future balance changes in SWTOR.

I see very interesting feedback here on the assassin game play.

 

Now it would be a good thing to have a dev step down and explain either how the players are wrong (because you have the numbers) or, eventually, start discussing about the needed changes.

So the problem is never the class design, it is either bad players or too high expectations? So basically L2P? (or learn to re-roll). Am I reading that right?

 

this is bull, they try to fool us making us the faulty ones. If the classes fine, it shouldn't have any patch with re-balance skills, But it continue to happens. Why? If ALL classes fine. Bull *****.

 

As a guy said, almost all classes melee have something to use for getting close from 30 meters. But ranged classes cant do nothing about it, so it do not matter you position behind in the fight line, cos anyone can get right on you withing a single global cooldown. At least smugglers can get into cover and be immune to a lot of things, buyt sages? No defense, no immunity.

As a melee have a lot of things to make help on your weak point that's the need to get close, the ranged should have a lot of things to make sure you get far. Why in the hell than, a melee knock back is stronger than a ranged? if the ranged supposed to want the enemy to get far? The force speed is a piece of ****, you cannot go far, plus players can jump on you all the time, can jump on you rooting you 2 times in a row, plus the knock back? 5 seconds rooted, more than enough to die without do nothing. The minimum for sages is, when you force speed you should be immune to all imparing movment. f immunity is too over, why knights can get immune when jump on you for EVERYTHING and summglers immune to interupt and charges when on cover?

 

Or if we had the worst defense and survivabilty from all games i've ever seen, and sage die fast specialy from melee, you can't stand a single round of stuns, if you wait resolve (the worst diminish return ever) you'll be dead. If we have rpobnlem surviving, at least the CC breaker should be much more faster than other classes. Sage need something that make the difference.

All those questions, i've always have a feeling that bioware dodge the real issues of the game by choosing such questions. I've always see much more deep and intersting questions but only those type, that bioware answer but in fact says nothing. Edited July 16, 2012 by Benets

In regards to Deception Assassins:

 

I think if you all as designers look at the metrics for successful high ranked rated warzone teams you will find a class make up that is heavy on power techs, marauders, operative healers, darkness assassins and snipers. Due to the survivability, utilty and sustained DPS the tankassin shines over the other two specs (deception / madness). One big reason for this is the auto crit mecnanic of engerize that allows darkness assassins to power stack their mods/enhancments. If you envision the class as being a more "lonewolf" hit-and-run class then I think a few tweaks could be made to make that happen and make them more playable and ranked warzone friendly.

 

Here are a few examples that I would like you to please consider:

 

- Consider moving the disjunction talent to tier 1 in darkness.

- Consider lowering the cooldown on force cloak to 1 minute with the Fade talent and have it remove snares/holds, etc..

- Move the duplicity talent up higher in the deception tree and remove the 50% armor pen and add a 30% chance to make the next maul a critical hit so that is functions like the energize talent for darkness.

- Find a way to make surging charge build faster and/or take less stacks to build up to the maximum for more front end burst to offset the low survivability.

- Consider changing voltaic slash to add a debuff effect to our opponents such as having it lower their critical strike chance and/or bonus, which, makes us more survivable and helps team play.

 

These are just a few examples that I think could help improve our class and make us more useful in end game PvE and PvP. I think that after looking at successful ranked warzone teams you will find that there is a lack of several builds beyond just deception assassins and that some tweaks will be in order.

 

Thank you for the consideration and all the work you do.

 

Vlos <Gm of Dread> Jung Ma

Suggestion: here's the official topic for assassin feedback

Is the level cap going to be raised this winter/fall?

anyone notice the codex comment from the dev. in the not so distant future. its been almost a year.