I definitely think that once WoW came along and showed that an MMO can have 8 million subscribers, all MMO developers now strive to achieve those numbers. The result of that is more younger people and way more casuals playing. They are usually not very skilled or don't feel like putting the time in the hardcore players do to get super rare stuff. This has made a lot of things automated and very easy in MMOs nowadays. Any time an item is really rare or a boss is really hard to beat, people cry for nerfs so they too can get the same rare stuff.

 

When I first started playing MMOs people LOVED difficult tasks. They loved having a boss that was nearly impossible to beat. They loved not being told what to do and finding out the game for themselves. They loved difficult grinds that took forever. Now people just want to be able to get the best stuff in the least amount of time. Then they complain about not having anything to do. MMOs are becoming a lot closer to single player games with multiplayer features. Everyone has the best stuff and everything is easy for everyone to do, because you wouldn't want to make something so hard that the guy who logs on for an hour a day can't do it. Thoughts?

I definitely think that once WoW came along and showed that an MMO can have 8 million subscribers, all MMO developers now strive to achieve those numbers. The result of that is more younger people and way more casuals playing. They are usually not very skilled or don't feel like putting the time in the hardcore players do to get super rare stuff. This has made a lot of things automated and very easy in MMOs nowadays. Any time an item is really rare or a boss is really hard to beat, people cry for nerfs so they too can get the same rare stuff.

 

When I first started playing MMOs people LOVED difficult tasks. They loved having a boss that was nearly impossible to beat. They loved not being told what to do and finding out the game for themselves. They loved difficult grinds that took forever. Now people just want to be able to get the best stuff in the least amount of time. Then they complain about not having anything to do. MMOs are becoming a lot closer to single player games with multiplayer features. Everyone has the best stuff and everything is easy for everyone to do, because you wouldn't want to make something so hard that the guy who logs on for an hour a day can't do it. Thoughts?

 

I disagree

 

Companies make games to make money . 8 million people paying 15 bucks a month is better than a million hard core players paying 15 bucks a month. Now days with the cost associated with making a game and getting it out there you need a lot of people to buy it and play it to keep it going.

 

Secondly video games are not a product that people actually need. For example people need food so if it comes down to someone buying this game or any game in general or going hungry I think the choice is obvious and with so many other options for entertainment The maker of a video game has to make there market as broad as possible which includes people that casually play video games.

 

Thirdly I disagree with your view of casual gamers as being people that "They are usually not very skilled or don't feel like putting the time in the hardcore players do to get super rare stuff. "

 

In my opinion most casual gamers are adults that have to go to work and maybe deal with a family or school what ever the case may be but in general people that something in there life that prevents them from playing up to 8 consecutive hours a day. This may lead to a lack of skill but on the other hand would you not want that player at all because they don't have a job or have troubles in there life that lead to them being unable to play at all?

 

"When I first started playing MMOs people LOVED difficult tasks. They loved having a boss that was nearly impossible to beat." I think casual gamers enjoy that aspect of gaming as well but just don't have the free time to down that boss. WOW has done alot of things to allow the casual gamer that wants to do those things have the chance by allowing the player to pick up were they left off in a raid if they had to leave and adjusting there dungeons to allow an average run take an hour or so. Also allowing different raid difficulties with different rewards. None of those features affect the hard core player.

 

Further more MMOs are not the only type game to adjust to the more casual player. Remember when you had to beat a console game in one sitting on the Nintendo? Now days there are check points and game saves galore in console games. Does that mean that the games are dumbed down for the casual audience? I don't think so.

 

Check this interview out . It basically a guy that wants a more hard core and realistic game and the guy that made the game is trying to tell him why he made the game more "casual friendly"

 

 

"MMOs are becoming a lot closer to single player games with multiplayer features."

 

I disagree with this as well I think SWTOR is the solo game with multiplayer features and something like WOW is still an MMO.

 

Take it easy

Edited June 14, 2012 by Sancofa

Stick with the classic Korean MMO's if you prefer the endless grind and the bosses that spawn every 24 hours and that require you to compete with everyone on the server to get a shot at them =P

The truth is that the current style of MMO's appeals to much wider audiences than the older, "hardcore" MMO's used to.

I never quite saw the appeal to pullings "trains" of mobs all day long and then running circles around them while killing them for xp or to get that rare item that drops after 964554124 mobs have died.

I think it is more about the MMO diverging from its vision to cater to a particular group that's the problem.

Games that stayed true to their original concept seem to do better in the long run than those that panders.

I love this game, simply because it does not cater to the hardcore gamer. I have ample time to play MMOs, as I am housebound due to health problems. I could easily play 8 to 12 hours a day, but I don't, because I have other things in my life to do.

My family, all of whom work or go to school, play with me when they have the time. This is the first game they've ever played where they don't feel they are struggling constantly or having to skip content because it takes too long to run or we simply can't find a group for running certain content.

 

Here, about the only thing we can't run together are operations, and we've never cared much about raids, anyway.

I hope we start seeing more MMOs like this.

 

If the hardcore players are upset that they burned through the content here too fast, that's their problem, not Bioware's.

i certainly do not think that casual players ruined any community. if anything, they make it better. there is nothing like asking a question and getting a polite answer instead of 'l2p n00b'.

Do we remember what happened to EQ once Wow came along and put an end to xp loss, corpse runs, camping, etc? It was, in my opinion, why Wow's numbers skyrocketed. People were calling it EQ done right.

 

Sooner or later a gaming company is going to learn to split the casual from the hard core player, pvp from pve....and they are going to make a fortune cornering the entirety of the market.

I have to disagree with the OP. I enjoy being able to be a causal gamer and still be able to enjoy the game the the features it offers. It the best of both worlds, the gaming fix gets satisfied and I don't have to worry about 'Wife-Aggro'. I like the difficult tasks. I don't want to just be able to walk through everything, but not every aspect of the game has to be like that. I know that when I look for a guild, I'm looking specifically for more of a casual guild instead of a hard-core one. Tend to find a bit nicer, more mature player and people that understand that RL > Game

Do we remember what happened to EQ once Wow came along and put an end to xp loss, corpse runs, camping, etc? It was, in my opinion, why Wow's numbers skyrocketed. People were calling it EQ done right.

 

the funny thing about that is i loved eq, and never could get into wow. it was too easy from the start. i guess i got used to it after a while though.

I disagree, I think the so called casual gamers make the game more fun. They are not as rude, elitist and more helpful then the "hardcore" gamer. If a game sticks to a hardcore gamer mode they won't make very much money and most likely go out of business. Most hardcore gamers are elitist jerks who are not fun to play with. If that is your cup of tea then fine but its not mine.

Ok.. Hardcore, casual.. tell me what is hardcore about punching buttons on a keyboard. Learning a little dance in a ops group to kill a boss. I used to be a WoW raider, it doesn't take that much to do it just time. Casual players are usually people with lives who have more important things to do then spend hours learning some fight to maybe, possibly get a gear drop.

 

There is no such thing as hardcore in video games. There are just those who have the time to spend learning the higher level stuff and the others who chose to play this game to relax, not make into something to build their lives on.

Besides casual players are much more polite than elitists.

 

I watched that video. That Tom person is an idiot.

 

You want to be hardcore? Join the Marines, or maybe become a policeman, or firefighter. I've been two out of the three.. gaming isn't hardcore. It's just a lot of fun fast entertainment that when I screw up I can get up and walk away from my computer. Nothing hardcore about it.

You want to be hardcore? Join the Marines, or maybe become a policeman, or firefighter. I've been two out of the three.. gaming isn't hardcore. It's just a lot of fun fast entertainment that when I screw up I can get up and walk away from my computer. Nothing hardcore about it.

 

QFE!

 

1 out of the 3 covered here.

This is why I laugh at self-titled "hardcore gamers".

 

I was in the Reserves, served U.N. Peacekeeping duty, been under live fire.

 

I've played a lot of games since 1987, I just like them. I consider them a hobby at most, a distraction at least.

 

Casual gamers improve communities, hardcore gamers ruin them, seen it in every MMO I've played.

 

If you don't believe me, see this thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=479649

 

Be sure to say hi to SirCopperfield, the greatest hardcore gamer in the world.

Edited June 15, 2012 by CaptRavenous

I agree and disagree with the OP. Games like FFXI and WoW have gotten so much simpler once they started appealing more towards casual gamers. FFXI you can literally get to level cap by having a high level friend power level you in 1-2 days. WoW it became hard to find groups of people to do anything as most people didn't have time for it. Some games have been ruined due to the whole casual gamer aspect of it.

 

On the other hand, I agree that most MMOs nowadays is geared towards casual gamers and have made them work, this one for instance. I also agree that casual gamers are also the ones that tend to help others, They are the ones that aren't elitist, rude, arrogant players that the hardcore gamers tend to be. This definitely helps a game when a newbie comes in and needs help with some things. In the end that newbie could turn out to be a good player, which I have seen.

 

All in all, having both types of gamers inthe community helps, but if it sways one way or the other, typically the game suffer. Better to have a balance of both groups of people, one to clear the raids/ops/etc, and the other to clear everything else that the hardcore players don't want to do ever again and only gear up.

They loved not being told what to do and finding out the game for themselves.

 

Is that why the 'elite' players are so anxious to tell other players what their build 'should' be?

 

Is that why people make websites with the 'best' builds on them?

 

Are you expecting anyone to believe that casual gamers are making websites for their favorite games that break down the numbers?

 

Someone might make one showing off gear looks or companion options, but you are suggesting that casual players are the ones out there creating the websites that break down all the numbers and tell people how to spec their characters.

 

The 'hard-core' people have only ever been about figuring things out to the extent that no one else had figured them out yet, but you can bet your butt that those same players have been combing the internet looking for guides on how to beat this boss or that boss so that they could tell their 'elite' friends exactly what to do and when to do it without having to die a hundred times figuring it out if at all possible.

 

I am the casual guy willing to die 20 times in a flashpoint to figure out how to get things done. Not the so-called 'elites' or 'hard-core' players.

They want to speed through everything. They don't have time to listen to conversations. How on earth do you expect me to believe that they won't mind dying a dozen times to figure something out on their own?

 

They are going to throw an absolute fit if someone does the 'wrong' thing and a wipe results, and the reason that they will know it was 'wrong' is because website X told them so 99% of the time, not because they figured it out on their own.

 

They were the ones crying about a master looter option precisely because they were afraid that their third tank might get the best tanking gear available from an operation or flashpoint rather than their first tank, because despite being able to run the flashpoint/operation in the first place with whatever gear they had, they were insistent on having complete control over gear improvements to make each future run that much easier.

They can beat it once they can beat it again and again, but they were not interested in that, they were only interested in beating it as fast as possible.

 

I also dislike anyone telling me what to do or what the 'right' way to do something is. I am smart enough to figure things out, and I really like to do that on my own.

I had some random nobody tell me that I 'had' to upgrade my gear earlier. I didn't ask for suggestions, they just felt that it was their duty to tell someone else what they 'had' to do.

Nevermind how I tend to do things or even asking me if I was having any trouble in the game, just telling me that I 'needed' to do something.

 

You think that a 'casual' player is going to randomly inspect another player's gear not to see what they are wearing ("Oh, I like the look of that top/pants/gun/whatever. I wonder what it is? <hits inspect character>), but to see what sort of numbers/level gear they are using and offer up a critique?

 

Ridiculous.

The amount of harcore players wouldn't have gotten less so I don't see the point. Most people don't care or are able to keep up a heavy schedule of raiding or grinding.

The OP does have a point I gotta agree with him. I understand why mmos have gone casual. They think about money and thatisall.

No. MMO players like to think back to the days of yore like everyone helped out.

 

In reality, if you had a regular group of likeminded no-lifers then yes you were set. You could all band together and overcome "difficult challenges" like hitting the level cap.

 

If you didn't then you know what you did? Nothing. Until WoW came around if you foolishly bought an MMO in the first place you unsubbed after you realized you need a tank and healer to accompany you to grind mobs outside of town. WoW was successful because it was soloable. If Deadmines was a 40 man lvl 20 raid I promise you there wouldn't have been 10 million players ever.

 

What's telling is that the more soloable MMOs become (or casual if you prefer to call it) the "community" apparently gets "worse." Back when you were forced to group yeah you would make nice because hey you can't keep playing unless you are. You would cheer Tanksalot or Stabyou when they won that epic item, but really wouldn't it have been better if you had won it? In fact if you could solo the Dragon of Time and get all the gold yourself wouldn't that be the best scenario? That's the cold hard truth.. you make nice in a game as long as it's benefiting you. When it's not all bets are off...

 

In general WoW's success has been a detriment for gamers all around.. MMO vets have to deal with the apparent "dumbing down" of the genre so that every game is either a WoW clone or too different from WoW to succeed. While gamers who wouldn't have touched this niche genre 10 years ago have to see more and more of their favorite franchises chase after "WoW money."

Before SW TOR, I wouldn't have touched an MMO with a sixty foot barge pole - mostly because of the way the internet tends to bring out the absolute worst in people. But I'm a big Star Wars fan so I finally decided to buy into it.

 

If that makes me 'casual' than so be it. I've played many many hours of single player BioWare games and what I love about TOR is how single-player like the class missions are - I can completely ignore everybody else and just play the game my way.

Before SW TOR, I wouldn't have touched an MMO with a sixty foot barge pole - mostly because of the way the internet tends to bring out the absolute worst in people. But I'm a big Star Wars fan so I finally decided to buy into it.

 

If that makes me 'casual' than so be it. I've played many many hours of single player BioWare games and what I love about TOR is how single-player like the class missions are - I can completely ignore everybody else and just play the game my way.

 

Amen.

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Well... I think that TOR has had a broader appeal from the outset. Many who have played and are playing this game were not MMO fans previously. They came here based on their experience with KOTOR. And therefore, they could be categorized as casual gamers, despite the fact that they may be in fact very devoted to gaming and the Star Wars genre of games in general. I know many who fit this mold and they are great for the community and the game in general. They came in with very different expectations than the hardcore elite and are very satisfied with what they have found. I think they added to a silent majority of players that continue to play this game and enjoy it immensly.

 

My point is, these casual players came to this game for the solo experience but have found a community. And more importantly, many have found this foray into MMOs a very positive experience from a gaming perspective and have moved in to the multiplayer endgame aspects quite easily. They are as a general rule much more patient and contribute to their respective communities a great deal more by helping others and fostering goodwill. They appreciate the game a great deal more as they aren't tainted by what has come before.

 

I make these generalizations based on my own experience with friends that are now MMO fans as a result of this game and other people I've met while playing TOR. I think these casual gamers break the negative stereotypes we so often reinforced by the hardcore elite. I welcome them and hope this trend continues. It makes our communities stronger and the game much more enjoyable.

 

My apologies for another wall of text, but I do want to add one more thing. Not all hardcore MMO gamers fit the usual stereotype. Many don't have that elitist entitlement we see so often here. They help. They teach. They get their guilds through the more difficult content and provide yet another level of enjoyment and entertainment. The hardcore gamers in this sense are very necessary. They push the content and the overall level of gaming forward so that content has a level of difficulty that requires a team approach which of course only improves the community.

 

But there are the hardcore elite whose self serving needs and entiltlement foster a very negative gaming experience. They could careless about the community in general. Communites serve them and not the otherway around. I could do without them... if they unsub for whatever reason, I don't view this as a negative.

 

BTW, I think this game is only now actually finding its true fan base.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Rafaman

My apologies for another wall of text, but I do want to add one more thing. Not all hardcore MMO gamers fit the usual stereotype. Many don't have that elitist entitlement we see so often here. They help. They teach. They get their guilds through the more difficult content and provide yet another level of enjoyment and entertainment. The hardcore gamers in this sense are very necessary. They push the content and the overall level of gaming forward so that content has a level of difficulty and that requires a team approach which of course only improves the community.

 

This.

 

"Hardcore" has nothing to do with playtime or attitude. It just means you want to push your character to its limit and meet all the hardest challenges in the game. Most of the responses in this thread seem to be indicating that "hardcore" means that they are condescending to others. There's a word for that, you know, and it's called being a "jerk". One can be a jerk regardless of how much or little they play or what their skill level is.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Jenzali

Some games, like SWG, the gear was easy to get... it required 2-3 people, several days grinding parts making parts and putting it together, once set up... could crank between 3-14 suits a week of mods.

 

It worked a charm.

 

The problem with games like this, is that you have to play some kind of lotto with the resources or go out to very specific spawn points ... taking forever.

Then you have *all* the good stuff needing some kind of massive grind in flashpoints, heroics, raids... the name really doesn't matter.

 

The only thing(s) that should EVER be in end game content, is vanity and bragging right items. Such as that silly hat off the slug. Things like that, work. The elitist crowd get their amazing rewards, looking silly or better than everyone else... whilst even the lowly 'casual' can still get the same gear.

 

The other issue is that everything from a flashpoint, binds. That really doesn't work. It only annoys people and in some cases, loses subs. The elite crowd end up getting spares... and the casual crowd who never get an invite go without - for good.

The entire point of an MMO is to have fun, to reach fun goals. You want challenging, good. But don't stick unfairly amazing gear at the top of the mountain - stick a funky pair of pants or a really cool slick gun.

 

How cool would it be, if they added a storymode hard (8 player) drop that was a rip on the "worms 2 Bazooka" ? That a Trooper could get... the stats would be normal for an Assault cannon, but, only the elite could get that funny looking thing.

 

Anyway, I'm a firm supporter of the casual crowd - you need them. They bring in money, which is goal 1 of any company in the gaming industry. Goal 2 is to make sure to come up with more money making ideas. Goal 3 is their own pockets. Goal 4... maybe the customer, after the company.

i personally enjoy challenges in games i enjoy trying to fight a boss with 20 or so different people and barley making it out alive but i also hate putting in 7 hours a day for 2 weeks to get one rare item there is a fine line between a grindy game and a game that u can beat while not loocking at and i personally think swtor ht the nail on the head.

 

they both made really difficult tasks for a player to strive to overcome but made it well enough that u would come back to it again and again when play for a hour or 2. things like the epic boss fights cater to thoughs who love a decent challenge and the compelling enough for casual gamers to keep coming for more even at some of its grindyist times this is why i love this game and look foward o seeing what way it goes:D

 

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