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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Oddly enough, I can relate to that experience. I actually have the same difficulty playing femme females as I have playing male characters as well. My characters do all tend to be of a type, which I suppose shows my limitation as an RPer.

 

I'll admit I completely type-cast myself most of the time. At least with my "mains". I play my characters in a way that the Legacy system supports pretty well - one central character with a lot of supporting roles.

 

I guess I'll make sure I get back on topic before I leave the thread.

 

Thinking about a particular topic in general, while I mostly disagree with the thought process in general, there definitely is a question of how they will implement a SGR romance that will seem natural for anyone wanting to take that option. I think the worst case scenario is that it's just a lack of gender check. However, if they actually have your character say a little something that shows reflection on who they are and how it relates to any current romance that had happened, then I'd be very impressed. But I guess I should take the "keep expectations low" attitude.

Also, it did occur to me that several [flirt] options I have encountered with NPCs were somewhat "hidden". Meaning I had to make the right choices in conversation just to get them. I wonder if these will be like that. It would help some of those "arg don't want to see sgr flirts" people.

 

I know why. :p Don't agree with something, then of course, must be an unfriendly person. Basically typical forum behavior.

 

Hm....no. You lack a certain degree of tact in your communication. Also you make broad assumptions. :) It wasn't a debate. I guess this is similar to a woman getting angry at man when she starts venting about a problem and the guy just responds with "Tch, just do X!". I was trying to avoid derailing the discussion further, but it didn't work.

 

also, WHY AM I UP THIS LATE

Edited by chuixupu
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Hm....no. You lack a certain degree of tact in your communication. Also you make broad assumptions. :) It wasn't a debate. I guess this is similar to a woman getting angry at man when she starts venting about a problem and the guy just responds with "Tch, just do X!". I was trying to avoid derailing the discussion further, but it didn't work.

 

Well, first "Tch just do X" is not a male only thing :p Second, I tend to say they're broad fromt he start and that of course there are the minor exceptions. Third, tact wasn't an option. When I as a player may want something, I realize the business should do what's in it's best interrests in terms of profitablity, as this keeps the product going that I want to see going, and a profitable business also keeps a staff employed (generally...one can look at City of Heroes and see that profitability can still lead to layoffs), and not in doing what I may want, that could possibly be what only a minority of players want/can careless about in either direction.

 

That basically puts you at odds with most who say "I feel discriminated against"

 

Also, I don't see much tact in going outside the forums to start a campaign. I don't see much tact in saying "BW who's made SGR in other games is now discriminatory against RL SGR"

 

All I did was say "The company is likely weighing the options and datamining how exactly this will effect business/profits/stockholders/ect"

 

While I don't think adding SGR will do this, let me ask you this...

 

Would you prefere SGR options where added even if it was shown it would cause the game to be shut down in two months? Or would you prefere it stayed out if that was shown what would happen?

 

Cause I promise you, this is exactly the type of things those who run companies think about. How will this effect long term.

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Wow! just insert a race instead of "Male" and that quote turns ugly real quick all in all there really is no difference I am kinda offended as a male to be seen as disgusting thanks!

I read Male and disgusting it was pretty clear too me.

 

Well, you quoted me, and I never used that word. Because it isn't applicable for me.

 

Also, while I can't speak for Samy_Merchi, I just have a problem with customizing male RPG character in general. Except in Dragon Age II, for whatever reason. Or with Chiss in SWTOR.

 

Lastly, I'm male. Genderqueer, most likely, but male.

 

I find it fascinating how different people react to playing avatars. Personally, as a female I tend to have a hard time playing female characters. I've always felt more at home role playing as male, even as a little kid (which earned me a lot of anger and ostracism from girls). I can play female characters, if they have just right kind of attitude. I really like my fem mercenary, probably because she's not incredibly, stereotypically feminine. But usually playing female characters feels awkward, wrong, like you described. Also not sure what that says about me.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much me, as well. Except substitute "male" with "female" and vice versa.

 

I meant the players. And you're right, trying to keep to canon is going to be hard, because the EU messes it up so much it's not funny, and the movie prequals went and added to it.

 

I'd say the current Clone Wars series is the worst offender when it comes to messing up the canon.

 

Among other things, you could have a look at its interpretation of Alderaan.

 

No. I was implying your sig was terribly worded wrong. Not that you felt you had to do that in RL.

 

There was nothing wrong with how it was worded. It was a figurative statement. Metaphorical, if you will.

 

Very easy to pick up on.

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...

I don't know though. I wouldn't call TOR's level of engagement any better than the others. I enjoy the fun of them, but I wouldn't say it's the be all end all of TOR. In fact, if that's the only thing that keeps anyone here, I wonder how they make it to Chapter 3 to even get that option, as boring game play is what had me get a max level in CO and then stop.

...

 

It makes a significant portion of TOR. It may not be as good as a proper RPG, but without it I doubt I would have even tried this game. I had a fervent dislike of MMOs.

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It makes a significant portion of TOR. It may not be as good as a proper RPG, but without it I doubt I would have even tried this game. I had a fervent dislike of MMOs.

 

Then you are a rarity among MMO players. As most wouldn't stay just for the storyline, especially one section that's 10minutes in length. Though admittedly, I don't know how that account for the majority of TOR, or do you mean just for you, it's a significant portion of TOR?

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Then you are a rarity among MMO players. As most wouldn't stay just for the storyline, especially one section that's 10minutes in length. Though admittedly, I don't know how that account for the majority of TOR, or do you mean just for you, it's a significant portion of TOR?

 

I mean the story portion to the game and the narrative in general make a significant portion of the game, not just the romances. If it didn't have the draw of Bioware storytelling it wouldn't be nearly as popular. While I can't speak for everyone I can say that I wouldn't have even considered the game if it weren't a KotOR sequel developed by Bioware. The fact that it was an MMO kept me out of the game for a while, but eventually I did play and enjoy.

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I mean the story portion to the game and the narrative in general make a significant portion of the game, not just the romances. If it didn't have the draw of Bioware storytelling it wouldn't be nearly as popular. While I can't speak for everyone I can say that I wouldn't have even considered the game if it weren't a KotOR sequel developed by Bioware. The fact that it was an MMO kept me out of the game for a while, but eventually I did play and enjoy.

 

Story was often referred to as the "fourth pillar" of ToR and its existence was designed to help set this MMO apart from others.

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Well, first "Tch just do X" is not a male only thing :p

 

/facepalm #3 Yeah, I know...I'm using a common trope to make a point. I was going to add in the anecdote that it's the complete opposite with me and my dad, but I thought you'd just get the humor and move on rather than turn it into yet another argument. :p You kind of remind me on the internet 15 years ago.

 

Second, I tend to say they're broad fromt he start and that of course there are the minor exceptions. Third, tact wasn't an option. When I as a player may want something, I realize the business should do what's in it's best interrests in terms of profitablity, as this keeps the product going that I want to see going, and a profitable business also keeps a staff employed (generally...one can look at City of Heroes and see that profitability can still lead to layoffs), and not in doing what I may want, that could possibly be what only a minority of players want/can careless about in either direction.

 

.... not even sure how this relates to my comment. Either this is a reply to something else or you misunderstood me.

 

Also, I don't see much tact in going outside the forums to start a campaign. I don't see much tact in saying "BW who's made SGR in other games is now discriminatory against RL SGR"

 

Neither do I, which is why I never said anything like that. Again, not sure why include this in your reply to my post which had nothing to do with any of this. I think you have me confused with someone else in a conversation I wasn't part of.

 

While I don't think adding SGR will do this, let me ask you this...

 

Would you prefere SGR options where added even if it was shown it would cause the game to be shut down in two months? Or would you prefere it stayed out if that was shown what would happen?

 

Cause I promise you, this is exactly the type of things those who run companies think about. How will this effect long term.

 

Why even ask a question that even you don't think has any truth to it? If Bioware really thought this would hurt their game, they wouldn't do it. Nobody has more information and feedback from their audience then they do.

Every move they make is a being evaluated by their internal metrics and number crunchers. Despite all the fanfare, I really don't think Bioware/EA caves to pressure to a few people on these forums. They made a decision to include SGR pre-launch. They started working on Makeb last spring, and I would be willing to bet they had the timeline of when they were going to announce certain features set up many months ago (in spite of Gabe's and Hall's accidental early spill).

 

And I work nights and weekends :(

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Thanks to EA's decision to make SGRs P2G, and not even giving us names for who will be SGR compatible, I've cancelled my sub. I may finish the Consular storyline eventually.... maybe. Done all the others. Did PvP. Did Flashpoints and Raids. BTDTGTTS (Been There Done That Got The T-Shirt).

 

Anyhow, I'm going to be taking a huge break from SWTOR to focus on writing when not at work, and probably play some more EVE Online. If anyone wants to check out my writing, I've been writing a multi-chapter story on another website that takes place just prior to the events of TOR's Prologue chapter. It stars characters of my own making named Joran Karn, a Jedi Knight, and Lord Shivalka, a Sith Warrior. They're partnered to take down Darth Tormen, and they have some very strange allies with them starting with Chapter 7. The series is called "Knight & Warrior", but I can't tell you the name of the website, here. Suffice it to say that if anyone is interested, send me a PM and I'll send you the website address and my user name on it so you can look up my tales. PM's here go straight to my email, so I'll be able to respond.

 

My decision to cancel my sub is due to EA being shady again, not because of BioWare. I am still a BioWare fan, so don't get me wrong. EA, on the other hand, has proven themselves to be unchanged since Earth & Beyond. Still the shadiest publisher around.

 

So I hope to see you all again sometime. Free Horizons, and Fly Safe. o7

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I too am someone who generally dislikes MMOs, I think thats a large part of the appeal of SWTOR, it is an MMO that plays like a single player RPG. Kind've like how the original KOTOR, WAY back in the day, was a traditional RPG that played like an action RPG. You appeal to a much wider range of people that way, and its still super fun. Clearly SWTOR has those MMO elements, the group quests, the PvP, stuff like that, and they are likely as much or more fun than any other MMO as well, but the primary draw for me, and probably a majority of players, is the storyline. Obviously that includes the romances, which is why there are 20 of them in the game, and while I've never heard a number on the total number of flirts its probably well over a thousand, and that might be an understatement. The fact that we aren't allowed to enjoy ANY of them is simply mind-boggling, and its why most players are upset. That, and the fact that its so easy to turn off the gender checks and solve the issue, but they pretend its 'unexpectedly hard', so hard that its taken them well over a year and theres still no end in sight to the waiting.

 

As someone who is, unfortunately, an expert on this topic due to years and years of experience using mods to enjoy romances that are gender-checked away, there is literally never a romance that needs to be rewritten or changed in any meaningful way whatosever because the main character is really a female. Whether its the Bastilla and Female Revan, Morrigan and Female Warden, FemShep and Ashley, Jack, Miranda, Tali, I've literally played them all, and many more. The only one that is at all annoying is the Morrigan one, because of the unusual number of male pronouns in that one, but even that one is awesome (particularly if you have the Morrigan DLC, and get the happy ending, with Morrigan and the Female Warden going through the mirror to raise their child and have their happily ever after) . And the reason that one of the very first mods that came out for DAO was the mod that let you romance Morrigan as a female Warden is, in addition to the fact that it was one of the most wanted, it was also because it was one of the easiest to do. It is just SOOOO easy to get rid of that gender check and let everybody enjoy the romance, it isn't 'unexpectedly hard', it doesn't take years, it took about 2 days for a modder, a guy who isn't even a professional getting paid to do it, to put the Morrigan one out there, and it might not've taken him that long to actually do it, it might've just taken him that long to do it, figure out where to upload it, etc. Thats the key point behind all of this, how easy it is to do if they would just do it, instead of pretending its hard and making excuses while doing nothing.

 

Of course it would be much harder if they wanted to write the romance storylines completely differently depending on which gender you were, but that is not only completely unnecessary, quite frankly its downright absurd. The romance is the romance, gender doesnt really play a role, once you'd played enough of these romances via mods you realize that isn't even slightly an issue. Of course it would be nice if they threw in a line about your character's gender at some point, that's always nice in any storyline in the game, and certainly it would be particularly appropriate for the romance storylines, but that's something they could add in later if they wanted to, thats not an excuse to give us absolutely nothing for well over a year. They could make the romances available right now, and if they want to add gender-specific aspects to them down the line that'd be great, and they'd obviously be able to do that as well, whenever they liked. So hopefully they'll finally do that soon.

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I too am someone who generally dislikes MMOs, I think thats a large part of the appeal of SWTOR, it is an MMO that plays like a single player RPG. Kind've like how the original KOTOR, WAY back in the day, was a traditional RPG that played like an action RPG. You appeal to a much wider range of people that way, and its still super fun. Clearly SWTOR has those MMO elements, the group quests, the PvP, stuff like that, and they are likely as much or more fun than any other MMO as well, but the primary draw for me, and probably a majority of players, is the storyline. Obviously that includes the romances, which is why there are 20 of them in the game, and while I've never heard a number on the total number of flirts its probably well over a thousand, and that might be an understatement. The fact that we aren't allowed to enjoy ANY of them is simply mind-boggling, and its why most players are upset. That, and the fact that its so easy to turn off the gender checks and solve the issue, but they pretend its 'unexpectedly hard', so hard that its taken them well over a year and theres still no end in sight to the waiting.

 

As someone who is, unfortunately, an expert on this topic due to years and years of experience using mods to enjoy romances that are gender-checked away, there is literally never a romance that needs to be rewritten or changed in any meaningful way whatosever because the main character is really a female. Whether its the Bastilla and Female Revan, Morrigan and Female Warden, FemShep and Ashley, Jack, Miranda, Tali, I've literally played them all, and many more. The only one that is at all annoying is the Morrigan one, because of the unusual number of male pronouns in that one, but even that one is awesome (particularly if you have the Morrigan DLC, and get the happy ending, with Morrigan and the Female Warden going through the mirror to raise their child and have their happily ever after) . And the reason that one of the very first mods that came out for DAO was the mod that let you romance Morrigan as a female Warden is, in addition to the fact that it was one of the most wanted, it was also because it was one of the easiest to do. It is just SOOOO easy to get rid of that gender check and let everybody enjoy the romance, it isn't 'unexpectedly hard', it doesn't take years, it took about 2 days for a modder, a guy who isn't even a professional getting paid to do it, to put the Morrigan one out there, and it might not've taken him that long to actually do it, it might've just taken him that long to do it, figure out where to upload it, etc. Thats the key point behind all of this, how easy it is to do if they would just do it, instead of pretending its hard and making excuses while doing nothing.

 

Of course it would be much harder if they wanted to write the romance storylines completely differently depending on which gender you were, but that is not only completely unnecessary, quite frankly its downright absurd. The romance is the romance, gender doesnt really play a role, once you'd played enough of these romances via mods you realize that isn't even slightly an issue. Of course it would be nice if they threw in a line about your character's gender at some point, that's always nice in any storyline in the game, and certainly it would be particularly appropriate for the romance storylines, but that's something they could add in later if they wanted to, thats not an excuse to give us absolutely nothing for well over a year. They could make the romances available right now, and if they want to add gender-specific aspects to them down the line that'd be great, and they'd obviously be able to do that as well, whenever they liked. So hopefully they'll finally do that soon.

 

I have to agree with what you said here. I dunno why its really all that hard to do. How often does your companion even talk about you to others? They are talking directly to you on the ship or the cantina mostly, not about you to others. I'm sure there are a few strings of dialogue here and there that aren't 100% gender neutral but jeez, can't be that many. Granted there ARE a buncha companions to go through but still.. :rak_02:

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I too am someone who generally dislikes MMOs, I think thats a large part of the appeal of SWTOR, it is an MMO that plays like a single player RPG.

 

<snip>

 

They could make the romances available right now, and if they want to add gender-specific aspects to them down the line that'd be great, and they'd obviously be able to do that as well, whenever they liked. So hopefully they'll finally do that soon.

 

Snipped for length. It was a good post with a number of salient points.

 

Unfortunately at the Guild Summit in March 2012 the only thing they were emphatically clear on regarding SGRAs is that they were consciously choosing to avoid doing exactly what you've suggested. They've chosen to make more in-depth changes to the romance arcs in order to make them SGRA-capable so no matter how easy it could be with a few gender flag alterations and a handful of rephrased lines they're not going to do that.

 

As we've seen BW:A don't do stuff they've chosen not to do (a trait that can be both positive and negative) so for all of their statements regarding how difficult or expensive it's proving to implement SGRAs I think they need to be taken with a grain of salt and an implied addendum of 'the way we've chosen to implement them'.

Edited by Kioma
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Thanks to EA's decision to make SGRs P2G, and not even giving us names for who will be SGR compatible, I've cancelled my sub. I may finish the Consular storyline eventually.... maybe. Done all the others. Did PvP. Did Flashpoints and Raids. BTDTGTTS (Been There Done That Got The T-Shirt).

 

We have names....

 

SGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

OGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

None of the current companion will be SGR when Makeb goes out.

Edited by Royox
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They've chosen to make more in-depth changes to the romance arcs in order to make them SGRA-capable so no matter how easy it could be with a few gender flag alterations and a handful of rephrased lines they're not going to do that.

 

I do wonder why they've chosen to go this route? I mean, they surely go the easy route with new gear as most is retexed from existing stuff. It seems odd.

 

All I can say is, "I'll believe it when I see it."

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We have names....

 

SGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

OGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

None of the current companion will be SGR when Makeb goes out.

 

8 total romanceable NPCs? I think you're giving them far too much credit.

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We have names....

 

SGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

OGR

Random male NPC 1 on Makeb

Random male NPC 2 on Makeb

Random female NPC 1 on Makeb

Random female NPC 2 on Makeb

 

 

None of the current companion will be SGR when Makeb goes out.

 

No Kira. Yeah, I'm done. Kira, Kaliyo, Vette, Jaesa, Risha, and Mako would have been easy to make SGR compatible. But instead of letting BW do what they do best, EA is all about "Cut costs and expect people to stick around." In the immortal words of Daffy: "Not thith little black duck!"

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Thanks to EA's decision to make SGRs P2G, and not even giving us names for who will be SGR compatible, I've cancelled my sub. I may finish the Consular storyline eventually.... maybe. Done all the others. Did PvP. Did Flashpoints and Raids. BTDTGTTS (Been There Done That Got The T-Shirt).

 

I'm sorry to hear this CZ, but I totally get where you are. I'm enjoying the game for other reasons beyond the romances so I keep playing for the time being, but in this particular regard, SWTOR is a fail for me and I'm not expecting my view on this will change much.

 

They've chosen to make more in-depth changes to the romance arcs in order to make them SGRA-capable so no matter how easy it could be with a few gender flag alterations and a handful of rephrased lines they're not going to do that.

 

 

blegh... more and more all that they said sounds like PR garbage to me, nothing more. What makes SGRs, so so so complicated that it'll take years of writing to make it "right" ? What makes writing SGRs such an uber monumental titanic endeavour as opposed to OGRs ? How is it that neutral lines, like the ones the game currently has for most of the romances, with little references to the PC's gender is ok, but only ok for OGRs ?

 

/rant over

 

(not aimed at you Kioma, I guess I'm just frustrated)

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Personally I think it would be awkward to suddenly make current companions SGR compatible at this point. I'd have to re-roll to take part in it anyway since all my companions on every character are fully maxed out in affection.

 

Yeah, it's very likely they've decided "Oh my glob, too hard" and are only going to have SGRA's with future companions... which you have to purchase from the Cash Shop.

 

You know.

 

Like you have to do with OGRA's.

 

I've sent Mr. Gonzalez a PM asking him why this fair, but he's not going to respond :) I don't think he likes me. He did come across as rather rude when I asked about the romances. Interesting that he thinks that throw away [Flirt]s are full blown romances, though. Says a lot.

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Interesting that he thinks that throw away [Flirt]s are full blown romances, though. Says a lot.

 

To be fair, we don't really know what kind of interaction to expect with these NPCs. If it ends up being on a level similar to (and perhaps surpassing) Thana Vesh, I could very well count it as a full romance. Granted, it still wouldn't be the same thing as a companion character that travels with you on your adventures, but it'd be more than a few throwaway flirts.

 

It does feel rather unlikely that we'd get something like that, though, since there'd have to be at least two characters (one male and one female), and it'd be hard to give proper focus when it's up to the player to decide what character to pursue.

Edited by JediMB
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Personally I think it would be awkward to suddenly make current companions SGR compatible at this point. I'd have to re-roll to take part in it anyway since all my companions on every character are fully maxed out in affection.

 

Unless they have a way to prevent that....which would then take some time.

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Yeah, honestly I just don't know exactly what kind of work goes into it and what kind of strings they need to pull to rework current companions. I know we've discussed a lot of different ideas before, like a way to "reset" companions. In one sense I think that wouldn't be too bad of an idea since it would allow people to go through it again without leveling from scratch, but then maybe that trivializes your decisions somewhat.
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