Originally posted in the [sniper Gunslinger Initiative] thread.

Gave it some more thought and modified a little.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 1 minute and 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 20 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Places 2 stacks of a non-cleansable debuff on target that reduce the energy cost of the next 2 Snipes on target by 5 and allows the 2 Snipes to be cast instantly and usuable only when out-of-cover(casting Snipe while in cover doesn't remove the debuff) The cool down timer begins when either;
  a) the 2 stacks are consumed or
  b) when the buff-up timer expires regardless of whether any Snipes were discharged.
   
  Also, the 2 Snipes this ability grants, ignore the global cool down and have an internal timer of 1 second between both shots, similar to how Shoulder Cannon works for PTs/VGs.
   
   
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: In the time I've played my Sniper I haven't yearned for more burst. But it seems that that's one of our concerns. And while I find the present Laze Target rather lackluster, I would be hesitant to request for a massive improvement. Hence this suggestion. While perhaps lacking and flawed in ways I haven't considered. I believe it would improve both PvE and PvP.
   
  
• In PvE, when facing most bosses especially during NiM progression, a Sniper will often have to move out-of-cover. If not to engage adds, it will be because of boss mechanics that require one to either close the distance or move out of AoE circles. Having 2 Snipes on-the-go with a reduced energy cost similar to what an MM Sniper would get via Muzzle Fluting, allows for it to be viable in all specs. Although more biased towards MM.
   
  
• In PvP, having the requirement that the buff/debuff isn't on the Sniper but rather on target removes some of the inevitable sense of overpowering might for lack of a better term. It would allow for every spec to chase down a fleeing target while on the move without having to be in cover and to better unleash more than 1 TD. Also, it is readily apparent who the target is, and would allow for skilled healers and tanks to prepare for it.
  

With the presence of Recoil Control, as mentioned by Whojoo. There needs to be an internal modifier that removes the ability to cast FT off the 2 Snipes. And with that, the only conceivable flaw that is apparent to me happens to be at lower levels, where access to this ability at level 10 might seem a tad too good, too early. Also, I believe it keeps with the name "Laze.... target", at least that the debuff goes on the target as opposed to on the player(a more apt ability name for the present skill could be "Squinting").

Hmm, this sounds like a pretty severe nerf.

Also, the 2 Snipes this ability grants, ignore the global cool down and have an internal timer of 1 second between both shots, similar to how Shoulder Cannon works for PTs/VGs.

This would have to be in the description.

Even then, it saves you 1 second, or 1 GCD if you interrupt another GCD.

Having 2 Snipes on-the-go with a reduced energy cost similar to what an MM Sniper would get via Muzzle Fluting, allows for it to be viable in all specs. Although more biased towards MM.

The relatively low usefulness of snipe cuts into it.

As a Leth, I'd rather fire a Weakening Blast and refresh a DoT.

As an Eng, IDK, Eng is a very limited spec, maybe renew my interrogation probe or use the plasma probe.

As a hybrid, Snipe would have to cost 10 or less to be useful.

Now, as a MM, I do want to refresh my Followthrough a second sooner, but that's all it is.

In PvP, having the requirement that the buff/debuff isn't on the Sniper but rather on target removes some of the inevitable sense of overpowering might for lack of a better term. ... Also, it is readily apparent who the target is, and would allow for skilled healers and tanks to prepare for it.

Since we're talking about a rather negligible buff, I doubt a tank or a healer would bother reacting to it.

You're preparing to do 3 seconds' worth of below average damage in 2 seconds - that's still only slightly above average damage.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate knowing that it's a nerf rather than a buff. Although I must say that if we were to change it, I'd prefer having it as a mobility ability allowing for potshots on the go and out of cover rather than as a further buff to abilities.

But that's just my take, since like I mentioned before, I don't see a real issue with DPS, rather DPS that's affected when one has to move due to mechanics and PvP dynamics.

Back from my weekend trip so here come the updates.

Hello!

Angels is Friday next week a good time? We are going to clash with the Juggernaut questions submission (their deadline is 8/30). Since its going to be a long holiday weekend i think itll do well to submit this a little further down the line. Their next week will undoubtedly be very busy. I'm thinkig September 6 or September 9.

When can i submit this? End of this week Friday?

This Friday or Monday should be fine. I don't see much of a difference of either day since BW has the weekend off and won't be checking messages until Monday anyway, so submitting it Friday will just have us waiting longer.

Originally posted in the [sniper Gunslinger Initiative] thread.

 

Gave it some more thought and modified a little.

 

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 1 minute and 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 20 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Places 2 stacks of a non-cleansable debuff on target that reduce the energy cost of the next 2 Snipes on target by 5 and allows the 2 Snipes to be cast instantly and usuable only when out-of-cover(casting Snipe while in cover doesn't remove the debuff) The cool down timer begins when either;
  a) the 2 stacks are consumed or
  b) when the buff-up timer expires regardless of whether any Snipes were discharged.
   
  Also, the 2 Snipes this ability grants, ignore the global cool down and have an internal timer of 1 second between both shots, similar to how Shoulder Cannon works for PTs/VGs.
   
   
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: In the time I've played my Sniper I haven't yearned for more burst. But it seems that that's one of our concerns. And while I find the present Laze Target rather lackluster, I would be hesitant to request for a massive improvement. Hence this suggestion. While perhaps lacking and flawed in ways I haven't considered. I believe it would improve both PvE and PvP.
   
  
• In PvE, when facing most bosses especially during NiM progression, a Sniper will often have to move out-of-cover. If not to engage adds, it will be because of boss mechanics that require one to either close the distance or move out of AoE circles. Having 2 Snipes on-the-go with a reduced energy cost similar to what an MM Sniper would get via Muzzle Fluting, allows for it to be viable in all specs. Although more biased towards MM.
   
  
• In PvP, having the requirement that the buff/debuff isn't on the Sniper but rather on target removes some of the inevitable sense of overpowering might for lack of a better term. It would allow for every spec to chase down a fleeing target while on the move without having to be in cover and to better unleash more than 1 TD. Also, it is readily apparent who the target is, and would allow for skilled healers and tanks to prepare for it.
  

 

 

With the presence of Recoil Control, as mentioned by Whojoo. There needs to be an internal modifier that removes the ability to cast FT off the 2 Snipes. And with that, the only conceivable flaw that is apparent to me happens to be at lower levels, where access to this ability at level 10 might seem a tad too good, too early. Also, I believe it keeps with the name "Laze.... target", at least that the debuff goes on the target as opposed to on the player(a more apt ability name for the present skill could be "Squinting").

The main issue I see with your Laze Target, that B-Dick didn't mention, is that I don't think there is a debuff in-game that functions similarly to this. While it's not impossible for a debuff on one target to effect the cast time and energy cost of another target, it could get really sloppy once other Snipers or characters are attacking the target. For example, Weakening Blast used to trigger by any Sniper's Cull and not just the caster (this may still be true but I haven't ran with two Lethality/Hybrid Snipers at the same time since 2.0). I'm bringing this up because, like I said, I don't think there is an ability currently in-game that functions like your proposed Laze Target, so this could require a lot of additional work from a programming stand-point.

I'll still throw your suggestion into the list because it's still an interesting premise that could give the combat devs an idea for the future.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who have already submitted suggestions, please update them with some of the feedback you've received from other players and resubmit them. I won't alter your ideas without clear permission and I've seen some really good feedback that could substantially improve some suggestions.

Also, try to have your suggestions and revised suggestions submitted by Thursday, September 5th @ 10:45pm PST (GMT -8). This will allow me to update the page as needed so that's it all ready for Paowee for Friday. If Paowee decides to submit them Monday I'll extend the final submission time.

Alright, I finally found some time to submit my own suggestion. It's based off what I initially wrote up over in this thread, so I'm just altering a few things and providing some numbers for backup.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 1min 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Snipe by 100%.
  
  • When talent points are allocated into the Marksmanship tree, a talent also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe also deal an additional 55% more damage.
    
  • When talent points are allocated into the Engineering tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe apply 3 stacks of Electrified Railgun and causes the Agent's next 4 physical effects to receive a 100% damage increase and have a 100% critical hit chance on the afflicted target (i.e. the next 4 ticks from Electrified Railgun will do 100% more damage and will be a critical hit for each tick on the target afflicted by Laze Target).
    
  • When talent points are allocated into the Lethality tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to cause the next Snipe to cull the target for XXX additional internal damage (this internal damage is identical to Cull's additional internal damage for one second plus 5% damage to the base internal damage) for each poison effect present on the target with a 100% critical hit chance (i.e. the Snipe and each culled damage attack has a 100% chance to critically hit the target).
    

  [*]Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Augmenting the current effects of Laze Target to better suit each specialization will help to fill its purpose of offering extra burst while giving 36-point specializations more merit than Hybrids. This will also help to diversify gameplay style between the specializations making them play more uniquely.

   

  My goal with this suggestion is to prevent doubling the cooldown of Laze Target as I believe the shorter cooldown of this ability is what makes it useful and unique. Giving it only a bit more damage in exchange for a minimal cooldown increase should satisfy most parties.

My suggested skill tree revisions are as follows:

Sniper Skill Tree Revisions:

• Marksmanship: Remove one point out of Imperial Assassin and make each point to Imperial Assassin grant 15% critical damage to the stated abilities for a total of 30% at 2/2 points. In addition, swap the position of Imperial Assassin and Siege Bunker. Add an ability that has a max of one point to the right of Imperial Assassin that requires 2/2 points to be already allocated to Imperial Assassin that does the following:
  
  • In addition to its current effect, Laze Target now causes the next Snipe to receive an additional 55% damage increase.

   

   

  [*]Engineering: Remove one point out of Imperial Auto-Loader and make each point to Imperial Auto-Loader grant 2.25 seconds reduced on Explosive Probe and Series of Shots cooldown, and reduces their energy costs by 3. This will give 4.5 seconds reduced and 6 energy reduced in Imperial Auto-Loader when it is 2/2 points. Add an ability that has a max of one point to the right of Imperial Auto-Loader that requires 2/2 points to have already been allocated to Electrified Blast that does the following:

  • In addition to its current effect, Laze Target now precisely applies 3 stacks of Electrified Railgun. The afflicted target has a 100% chance to be critically hit by the Agent's next 4 physical effects as well as receive 100% additional damage from the next 4 physical effects.

   

   

  [*]Lethality: Remove one point from Lethal Takedown and make each point to Lethal Takedown grant 1.5% damage to Cull and a 22.5% chance to trigger Lethal Takedown. This will give a 3% damage increase to Cull and a 45% chance to trigger Lethal Takedown when at 2/2 points. Add an ability that has a max of one point to the left of Lethal Takedown that requires 2/2 points to have already been allocated to Lethal Takedown that does the following:

  • In addition to its current effect, Laze Target now causes the next Snipe to cull the target for XXX additional internal damage (XXX value is equal to internal damage of a single culled tick in one second of Cull + 5% to its base damage) for each poison effect present on the target with a 100% critical hit chance.

Additional Explanation:

Marksmanship: This one provides the second most damage upfront, Lethality takes first, but is the weakest Laze Target of the three. This is because it requires no setup and occurs in 1 GCD unlike the other two Laze Targets. Thus lower damage output is the side effect of a lower skill requirement. While a very simple, it still achieves the goal of greater burst without effecting sustained damage much.

Engineering: While this damage occurs over a longer timespan than the others, it has the highest potential for burst damage in that 6 second timeframe. Relics, Adrenals, and Bloodthirst/Inspiration could be used to increase the damage of every tick in conjunction with other abilities (like Orbital Strike, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, and etc.). However, to maximize its burst potential requires a medium to high skill level due to the moderate set-up and execution. In PvP, the ability would have to be tactically integrated to prevent the burst opportunity from being wasted.

Lethality: While it gives a high amount of damage upfront, this Laze Target still requires 3 GCDs to make the ability worthwhile. While offering a nice amount of burst damage, it will also offer extra energy to help alleviate the cost of a Snipe as the two critted internal ticks will grant 4 energy, effectively making a Lazed Snipe cost 16 energy. In PvP the set-up time makes it avoidable thus requiring a moderate amount of skill to execute against a skilled opponent.

Being careful not to give too much is the key as being used with the Hemorrhaging Blast effect could cause an imbalance between the specs. 5% proved ideal as the total damage was still a bit less than Engineering, but more than Marksmanship.

The notable downside when compared to the other two specs is that Hemorrhaging Blast must be applied to the target to match the other specializations' burst potential. This is easily achievable in a PvE rotation, but a bit more difficult in PvP as that totals three GCDs just for a setup. Its cull damage was increased to 5% more than Cull's culled ticks to make the damage justify the lengthy setup.

Below is my brainstorming process along with all the math I did. Granted, some of this was guesswork, so not everything has been calculated. This was to save time as I'm hoping these numbers just help to give a general idea and show this suggestion isn't over-powered. I apologize that everything is in Gunslinger terms, but I am a Gunslinger first so it was easier for me to think of the abilities in those terms (Electrified Railgun doesn't have the same ring as Blazing Speed).

Posting my suggestion for LT/SL here:

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration:
  2-3 minutes
  
  
   
  
  
• Buff Up-Time:
  10 seconds
  
  
   
  
  
• Ability Description:
  Laze Target places a Laze buff into self, next Ambush, Explosive Probe or Takedown consumes it. If Ambush consumes the buff, 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots are given to self. If Explosive Probe consumes it, a second Explosive Probe that deals 50% of the damage will be placed on the target. If Takedown consumes it, Takedown critical chance will increase to 100%.
  
  
   
  
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change:
  
  
  The critical hit mechanic although rewarding is very simple and sometimes deceiving. As of now Laze Target increases Snipe crit chance to 100% which sounds good and looks good but in the end rewards little for smart plays. Snipe is a weak hitting skill and lacks additional gameplay value to feel anything but a filler and Laze Target as a skill is hurt by this.
  
  
  The change proposed here is aimed at rewarding the player for choosing the right moment to use Laze Target. It will fill its purpose for both PvP and PvE and any spec will benefit. Burst will be possible as an opener with the 1.5s Ambush, the 150% Explosive Probe damage in 3 GCD or the auto-crit Takedown for finishing (or additional burst for Lethality). While improving the PvE sustained damage on skills that are important in each spec rotation. On a 5min battle MM would have a faster startup followed up by an EP or Takedown depending on boss health, Eng/Hybrid would have a gain in damage and energy regeneration since the second Probe would behave as a Probe applying Cluster Bombs while Lethality would have an increase in Takedown damage twice or thrice in the fight.
  
  
  On the technical side this seems doable since a buff consumed by a skill exists (FT), to change the behavior would be a conditional case in the program (possibly the most challenging part though) and a weaker version of Explosive Probe buff could be applied just like the weaker versions of Corrosive Dart/Grenade.
  
  
  Some points that do need discussion are the % damage of the second Explosive Probe, probably it needs to tone down to 30% given the extra regeneration another point is the 100% crit on Takedown, personally I would prefer an extra % on armor penetration like 30-50% it will act as a critical hit but not prone to surge stacking builds.

  
  

Posting my suggestion for LT/SL here:

 

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

 

Cooldown Duration: 2-3 minutes

 

Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds

 

Ability Description: ...If Ambush consumes the buff its cast time is decreased by 1s...

 

Reasoning and Explanation for the Change:

...Burst will be possible as an opener with the 1.5s Ambush...

or a 0.5 sec Ambush for MM spec?

or a 0.5 sec Ambush for MM spec?

Got to say that I only saw that after I pressed to submit Yea you right it will give a 0.5 Ambush cast for burst but not for sustained since it will cause a 1s of GCD where you just can't act so for sustained the best bet would still be EP and TD I believe.

Got to say that I only saw that after I pressed to submit Yea you right it will give a 0.5 Ambush cast for burst but not for sustained since it will cause a 1s of GCD where you just can't act so for sustained the best bet would still be EP and TD I believe.

The GCD would be 0.5 seconds, same as the cast time; whenever cast time is pushed below 1.5 seconds, the GCD is always pushed down along with it as long as the cast time isn't completely removed (i.e made instant). An example of this can be seen when Arsenal mercs use their Tracer Lock stacks to reduce the cast time of Healing Scan. If used at 2 stacks both the cast and GCD will be 0.9 seconds, if used at 4 stacks the same will happen but with a 0.3 second cast and GCD, and if used at 5 stacks the cast will be instant but cause a normal 1.5 GCD.

The GCD would be 0.5 seconds, same as the cast time; whenever cast time is pushed below 1.5 seconds, the GCD is always pushed down along with it as long as the cast time isn't completely removed (i.e made instant). An example of this can be seen when Arsenal mercs use their Tracer Lock stacks to reduce the cast time of Healing Scan. If used at 2 stacks both the cast and GCD will be 0.9 seconds, if used at 4 stacks the same will happen but with a 0.3 second cast and GCD, and if used at 5 stacks the cast will be instant but cause a normal 1.5 GCD.

Oh ok, well then this change is up to discussion. A way to fix this is to make the Laze Target give 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots when consumed by Ambush.

Note that the consume action will happen at skill activation which shouldn't be an issue being EP/TD instant casts and Ambush will cause a Zeroing Shots buff.

Or we can keep it this way but I believe the change will be too good for MM, and the cooldown would have to go for 3min or higher.

Updating my post with the Zeroing Shots change

Let me start by giving my thoughts on the current Laze Target:

The problem with Laze Target is with Snipe. Snipe is a lackluster skill, it lacks those flashy lights, huge sounds, cool effects, decent damage, decent damage/energy, etc and it is barely noted as a proper skill and more as a filler skill. So Laze Target by improving Snipe with nothing but a auto-crit and a red laser is suffering from Snipe lack of presence.

 

Now to you

If Snipe is lackluster now, why can't we make it more appealing every 1min 30sec by having it do more burst damage with an improved Laze Target? I get that aesthetics are important, but I'd be able to ignore them if an ability was giving me the damage of a critted Ambush every minute and a half. My suggested Laze Target change boils Snipe down to an additional 1.5 second cast, critted Ambush every 1min and 30sec. If you are familiar with Marksmanship, the other specs don't need to use Ambush much or at all, you can easily realize the benefit this could play in any burst scenario. While it may not look cool, it will be awesome to see in the combat log.

You went the math side of things, the first question is if you placed into account armor mitigation this will change the relation to Lethality. Also your math is all based on the burst the change will give but what for sustained?

Like what impact would 3 stacks of Railgun would have on the Engineering rotation/behavior/mechanic. Would they add another skill, and thus lose the debuff on the target and right after reapply them with Laze Target-Snipe? This may change your math a bit and give a better effect on sustained damage than intended.

Same thing for Lethality, would they go for Snipe after WB before Cull so to use all WB stacks or something different? Probably not cause they'll lose WB Stacks for CD/CG between Snipe and then Cull, so a WB Snipe will never happen probably.

Each Snipe hit damage was averaged to if at least a Shattershot was placed onto the target (i.e. there is an armor debuff present). The only thing that isn't accounted for in my math is how extra buffs would effect the Laze Targets, like relics and adrenals. At the beginning of my math portion I state how this wouldn't effect sustained damage by much:

Calculating Cooldown:

1. Every 60 seconds the Gunslinger receives a guaranteed 5250 or 5500 energy damage.
   
2. 50% of that damage is 3125 or 3250 energy damage.
   
3. Increasing the cooldown by 50% to balance an average damage increase of 3000-3500 damage (regardless of damage type) should help to off-set increased sustained damage.
   
4. 60 sec * 1.5 = 90 sec, which is 1 minute and 30 seconds.
   

To put my math into writing terms, I increased the burst potential of Laze Target by 50% so I increased the cooldown by the same amount (i.e. it is now 150% when compared to its prior cooldown time). I can't prove or disprove that sustained damage won't change, in fact any change to Laze Target will alter that, but I can assure it will be minimal.

As for this Laze Target altering rotations, it would only effect burst/openers and not sustained. If players are letting Electrified Railgun to fall off in exchange for another ability then they probably aren't playing Engie right. To maximize Engie DPS, you need to keep 3 stacks up as much as possible. Sacrificing any time on that DOT isn't a wise choice unless the target is about to die or become invulnerable. To also maximize the Engie Laze Target I purposed it'd be best used in burst circumstances, not kept for "whoops" moments. Holding it back wouldn't be ideal, especially due to the 90sec cooldown.

As for Lethality, they will want to use it after WB, it'd be a waste of DPS otherwise in a PvE setting. The culled damage of the Laze Target Snipe is 5% more on each tick than Cull, so you get a greater benefit for using it during WB than you would Cull. Each Cull tick happens in 1 second increments, so you're literally trading 2 Cull ticks for 2 stronger Lazed Snipe ticks if you're not facing lag issues, of course. For PvP the benefit is more transparent. Say you setup on a target but they are about to LOS you, probably halfway through the Cull cast. Instead do a Laze Target Snipe and you hit them for a crit Ambush.

The change for Marksmanship is as lackluster as the current one you gave it a damage buff that will make it act as an Ambush of sorts and so it will be inline with the other changes. Although great I don't think it is what people want from it. Keeping Laze Target tied to only one other skill is also a problem because that skill has to keep in importance through out the game and that's not what Snipe is.

I already saw this critique coming as soon as I settled with just buffing the damage of a Snipe. First, this isn't as lackluster as the original in terms of burst. As I said prior, these Laze Targets Snipes will be hitting for critted Ambushes, and this one is no different. The Marksmanship Laze Target Snipe won't act like Ambush, it will act like a 1.5 sec cast, auto-crit ambush. To but that burst in perspective I'll set it up in a rotation, Snipe > Laze + Snipe > FT > Ambush > FT. That's essentially two Ambushes back-to-back without having to worry about variables considering resetting an Ambush CD.

I am disappointed that I couldn't find an alternative for the Marksmanship change, but all other ideas I came up with were too strong, too weak, didn't fall under intended MM rotation, or would be worthless in PvE (i.e. a utility change). This is just a side-effect of MM's direct damage playstyle as I had no way of spreading out the damage without creating imbalances.

Changing the skill tree I don't like because you kept the link to Snipe, if any hybrid don't use Snipe in the future why would they pick any? Wouldn't it be better to go for the iconic mechanics like TD, FT, Cull, WB, PP, IP, EP, EMP, etc. Those will have a better impact into Hybridization.

Bioware has stated this before, they designed their skill trees to have the 36 point talents utilized in every spec. In other words, they don't want hybrids out-parsing 36 point builds hence why they try to make changes that help to phase them out. One of my reasons for the change is that these alterations will help work against hybridizing

The changes on Engineering and Lethality are good, they both have implications on the mechanic of the skill tree but MM needs a better change that makes Laze Target feels rewarding to use tied to Snipe. It doesn't have to go into damage but something that gives Snipe a more rewarding experience, like decreased energy Cost, instant cast, accuracy increase (PvP focused), and some I can't thinkk of atm . Personally I would just go away with Snipe and get another skill(s) but they also have the same issue as Snipe, they have to stay significant so Laze Target is significant.

As I said, I am sad that I couldn't find something more worthwhile for MM aesthetically. Altering Snipe in other ways, like decreased energy cost, wouldn't suit the intended purpose of Laze Target which is more burst.

Okay, I'll check out yours now.

Posting my suggestion for LT/SL here:

 

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration:
  2-3 minutes
  
  
   
  
  
• Buff Up-Time:
  10 seconds
  
  
   
  
  
• Ability Description:
  Laze Target places a Laze buff into self, next Ambush, Explosive Probe or Takedown consumes it. If Ambush consumes the buff, 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots are given to self. If Explosive Probe consumes it, a second Explosive Probe that deals 50% of the damage will be placed on the target. If Takedown consumes it, Takedown critical chance will increase to 100%.
  
  
   
  
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change:
  
  
  The critical hit mechanic although rewarding is very simple and sometimes deceiving. As of now Laze Target increases Snipe crit chance to 100% which sounds good and looks good but in the end rewards little for smart plays. Snipe is a weak hitting skill and lacks additional gameplay value to feel anything but a filler and Laze Target as a skill is hurt by this.
  
  
  The change proposed here is aimed at rewarding the player for choosing the right moment to use Laze Target. It will fill its purpose for both PvP and PvE and any spec will benefit. Burst will be possible as an opener with the 1.5s Ambush, the 150% Explosive Probe damage in 3 GCD or the auto-crit Takedown for finishing (or additional burst for Lethality). While improving the PvE sustained damage on skills that are important in each spec rotation. On a 5min battle MM would have a faster startup followed up by an EP or Takedown depending on boss health, Eng/Hybrid would have a gain in damage and energy regeneration since the second Probe would behave as a Probe applying Cluster Bombs while Lethality would have an increase in Takedown damage twice or thrice in the fight.
  
  
  On the technical side this seems doable since a buff consumed by a skill exists (FT), to change the behavior would be a conditional case in the program (possibly the most challenging part though) and a weaker version of Explosive Probe buff could be applied just like the weaker versions of Corrosive Dart/Grenade.
  
  
  Some points that do need discussion are the % damage of the second Explosive Probe, probably it needs to tone down to 30% given the extra regeneration another point is the 100% crit on Takedown, personally I would prefer an extra % on armor penetration like 30-50% it will act as a critical hit but not prone to surge stacking builds.

  
  

The 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots were something I had in mind as well, but I came to the problem of balance. For a MM, say Ambush hits for 5.1k and crits for 8.7k, two instantly gained stacks of Zeroing shots means that this damage isn't predictable for the target (no ramp up time to the stacks) and occurs in 1.5sec. This sets the bar for the other Laze Targets having to do damage that is similar to the MM one, something that is between 5k-9k on demand.

Explosive Probe is a dangerous ability to mess with in terms of balance as the Cluster Bombs can add up to a lot of additional damage. To save a bit of time, I'm going to use the number greg-biochem used as they are close to what a 72 geared Sniper can expect:

An Ambush Crit does 8 - 9k damage (8.5 - 9.5k in MM)

A Takedown crit does 7 - 8k damage

An EP crit does ~ 7k damage (11 - 12k with crits to all 4 Cluster Bombs)

A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)

A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

With that in mind, a 50% weaker EP would do ~3.5k crit (2058 base damage) and assuming the Cluster Bombs are 50% weaker too all four would crit for ~2,250k (331 base damage for each bomb). Here are the totals you'd be looking at on average:

• 100%: EP ~4.1k-7k & Cluster Bombs ~2.6k-4.5k
  
• 50%: EP ~2k-4.5k & Cluster Bombs ~1.3k-2.2k
  
• Subtotal: EP ~6.1k-11.5k & Cluster Bombs ~3.9k-6.7k
  
• Total: 10k-18.2k Damage
  

The only thing keeping the MM suggestion close to this is that there will be a FT after the Ambush, but even then there isn't the same damage potential especially since the Engie one only takes one GCD to setup and everything else is just bonus after.

The Takedown bonus is in the worst condition of all. Takedown crits for 7k-8k, that's a higher average than the MM one, but lower potential than the other two. This is considering that the follow-up to Takedown in Lethality would be a Series of Shots or DOTs application meaning it doesn't have any instant heavy-hitter backing it up but rather just Cull leading it off.

I understand that one of your reasons for the change is that each ability could be used situationally, but I see no reason to branch out to the other abilities of Laze Target as each one benefits one tree far more than the others. MM would only use the Ambush as then they get faster FT series, Engie gets a ton of damage from the EP, and EP is too much energy for Lethality to use reliably and they don't get the benefit of FT.

This seems like a pretty significant downgrade for half of the specs. MM goes from a guaranteed 5.5k every minute to a 5.1k hit with a chance of a 8.7k hit every two minutes or more. Lethality goes from a 5.2k hit every minute to a 7k-8k hit every two minutes (2k more damage for the 60 more seconds is a nerf for sustained). The only builds this change really benefits is Engineering, but moreso, Hybrid. The extra Cluster Bombs will pour out energy and allow ridiculous damage sequences to occur without having to spend a Adrenaline Probe which then allows more damage to happen over a sustained period as AP can then be used later on.

I like the idea of effecting abilities that aren't Laze Target, but it still has to be fair. This change drastically favors two specs more than the others.

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As an update, I will update the notables list later today so that others may submit revisions and new ideas before 10:45pm PST.

Will there be a vote, or was the plan to submit *all* suggestions?

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Also, I think it would be wise for everyone to temper their expectations. It is obvious people put a lot of thought into their suggestions, but it remains unclear/doubtful (at least to me) whether or not the developers would respond to any of these ideas.

I believe Paowee had stated previously that he has kept contact with Eric about the 'dev suggested' change and the community's vote on that matter, but I'm not sure if the devs intend to consider any player suggested changes.

Will there be a vote, or was the plan to submit *all* suggestions?

 

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Also, I think it would be wise for everyone to temper their expectations. It is obvious people put a lot of thought into their suggestions, but it remains unclear/doubtful (at least to me) whether or not the developers would respond to any of these ideas.

 

I believe Paowee had stated previously that he has kept contact with Eric about the 'dev suggested' change and the community's vote on that matter, but I'm not sure if the devs intend to consider any player suggested changes.

My plan was just to submit all the suggestions that met the format and received feedback. The format gives a good synopsis of what the idea is about in a short read, and we haven't received that many suggestions so submitting the 6 or 7 we have won't be too much.

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I agree with what you said fully. I'm already aware Bioware isn't allowed to directly comment on suggestions players give out for game changes (legal ramifications and some others we can't imagine), so I was never expecting them to be like "Hey, we like X idea, mind if we use it/parts of it?" My highest hopes for this thread is just for the devs to look over the notables list and go "hey, that's neat" among themselves.

As for the more detailed answers, think of it as those community members really enjoy the game and class they're playing, and probably had a bit of fun inventing a way to make their class more versatile. Nobody should ever expect to hear back from the combat team directly. At most, you may hear their echos through Eric, Courtney, or Amber.

If this thread, along with the other one Paowee has been looking over, actually helps the developers see the mindset of the more prolific Snipers/Gunslingers on the SWTOR boards, I'd say that we accomplished a lot more than I anticipated. I'm not expecting any feedback from them, at most maybe Eric popping in and going, "Cool stuff, everyone. :rak_03:"

I think I wasn't clear enough sorry it is just my mental process thinking of all possibilities I can >.< I understood your math completely and as I said it is really well done but increasing 50% on damage may not correspond to a 50% increase on cooldown in a 1:1 relationship. Remember the 2.0 PTS where Amubush could be specced into 1.5s? You just gave it back to Snipers every 90s, and an auto-crit of it, but those points where changed into the Zeroing Shots. Part of it was the impact on the infamous TTK, Ambush - FT is a terrifying opener, one that even my idea without the auto-crit may reacquire even a higher cooldown. Besides you have to take into account rotation changes, how long would the dot be down in my question? 1s? so if a skill between that could give 3s of dot damage in 2s (taking in account the 1s dot down and 1s until the dot ticks again after reapplying, given that Snipe will reapply all 3 dots) may be worth changing the rotation in the long run. I'm just theorizing here given the information given.

Snipe however I still believe is a bad skill, it lacks anything that makes the players willing to keep using it, design-wise, and changing Laze Target but keeping Snipe will do nothing to help, apart from forcing a choice to players that they do not want. Yes increasing numbers is nice but it will not solve the current issue with Laze Target only hide it beneath a nice intent change. And locking the change into the spec tree with a skill that may or may not be useful to the spec (Lethality barely use it unless in combination with Laze Target so why keep both linked if you going to change according to the skill tree?). A skill that shows this really well is Covered Escape, for Engineering it is THE skill, MM is just a fluff but does give a decent utility to the spec (speed) and so is Lethality (slow). A proper way would have CE be more meaningful on all specs since you are going to place its change so high in the tree but given the utility the skill gives, and the extra utility added (not damage) both specs have gained a proper skill that takes into account their mechanics.

Back to your feedback, which by the way thank you ^^

Yea I did think that 50% on EP might be a little off. My thinking here was to go for utility and keeping the focus of Laze Target, while you go for the numbers and keeping the damage balanced but increasing the burst potential I intend to get the burst in other way that are not damage-oriented and those changes carry value just like adding 10%, 20%, etc damage into a skill, just like increasing the cooldown carry a negative damage value.

I think burst in a time-oriented way instead of damage-oriented or instant damage burst, so take Ambush, while it does the same damage the damage is dished out sooner maybe giving time to add another skill into the mix.

Take Soa third phase for instance with his 10 seconds of vulnerability (hopefully I'm right with the 10s been a while since I killed him ) there are a few things we can do as MM:

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush - FT - SoS -> 7GCD = 10.5s, SoS wont fully hit

SoS - FT - Ambush(2.5s) - FT - Snipe > 6GCD + 1s = 10s

Snipe - FT - SoS - FT - Ambush(2.0s) > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

With LT giving 2 Zeroing Shots:

Ambush(1.5s) - FT - SoS - FT - EP/Snipe > 6GCD = 9s

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush(0.5s) - FT - SoS > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

Of course these are probably not accurate, nor the best rotations for him but they show that there can have a gain that needs to be quantified.

Same thing for EP, I agree that 50% may be too much but Clusters bombs should not be all accounted into burst only some of them, by having 4 on the target they'll fully do their damage after 2s, with 8, only after 4s and that's only if the target is being hit every 0.5s by blaster fire, which on a 1v1 situation will happen in worst case scenario every 1.5s so those 8 cluster bombs deal full damage after 12s. However those bombs do give an extra 40 energy (in 12s, worst case scenario) which can be used in advance for additional skills instead of Rifle Shot so there is also a potential gain in damage.

Takedown is the only damage-oriented change into LT, given that as much as utility and QoL is good, damage may eventually be needed in an instant and Takedown seemed to me the tool for that.

So my idea tries to do is adding utility to LT in a way that such utility keep the focus of Laze Target, but in a way that allows the Sniper the flexibility of choosing when and how to properly utilize his skills. This change given the amount of utility that it may give might need a cooldown between 2 and 3 minutes with my opinion being 3 minutes. One thing I believe could be a better change is instead of giving a second EP it will directly give those extra 4 cluster bombs (or maybe 2) for any spec (with Engineering being the only that gains 5 energy from them).

Damn this wall of text >.< hopefully I made myself understandable >.< I really liked your idea apart from the Snipe (Hate Snipe with all my strength lol)

I think I wasn't clear enough sorry it is just my mental process thinking of all possibilities I can >.< I understood your math completely and as I said it is really well done but increasing 50% on damage may not correspond to a 50% increase on cooldown in a 1:1 relationship. Remember the 2.0 PTS where Amubush could be specced into 1.5s? You just gave it back to Snipers every 90s, and an auto-crit of it, but those points where changed into the Zeroing Shots. Part of it was the impact on the infamous TTK, Ambush - FT is a terrifying opener, one that even my idea without the auto-crit may reacquire even a higher cooldown. Besides you have to take into account rotation changes, how long would the dot be down in my question? 1s? so if a skill between that could give 3s of dot damage in 2s (taking in account the 1s dot down and 1s until the dot ticks again after reapplying, given that Snipe will reapply all 3 dots) may be worth changing the rotation in the long run. I'm just theorizing here given the information given.

 

Snipe however I still believe is a bad skill, it lacks anything that makes the players willing to keep using it, design-wise, and changing Laze Target but keeping Snipe will do nothing to help, apart from forcing a choice to players that they do not want. Yes increasing numbers is nice but it will not solve the current issue with Laze Target only hide it beneath a nice intent change. And locking the change into the spec tree with a skill that may or may not be useful to the spec (Lethality barely use it unless in combination with Laze Target so why keep both linked if you going to change according to the skill tree?). A skill that shows this really well is Covered Escape, for Engineering it is THE skill, MM is just a fluff but does give a decent utility to the spec (speed) and so is Lethality (slow). A proper way would have CE be more meaningful on all specs since you are going to place its change so high in the tree but given the utility the skill gives, and the extra utility added (not damage) both specs have gained a proper skill that takes into account their mechanics.

 

Back to your feedback, which by the way thank you ^^

Yea I did think that 50% on EP might be a little off. My thinking here was to go for utility and keeping the focus of Laze Target, while you go for the numbers and keeping the damage balanced but increasing the burst potential I intend to get the burst in other way that are not damage-oriented and those changes carry value just like adding 10%, 20%, etc damage into a skill, just like increasing the cooldown carry a negative damage value.

I think burst in a time-oriented way instead of damage-oriented or instant damage burst, so take Ambush, while it does the same damage the damage is dished out sooner maybe giving time to add another skill into the mix.

 

Take Soa third phase for instance with his 10 seconds of vulnerability (hopefully I'm right with the 10s been a while since I killed him ) there are a few things we can do as MM:

 

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush - FT - SoS -> 7GCD = 10.5s, SoS wont fully hit

SoS - FT - Ambush(2.5s) - FT - Snipe > 6GCD + 1s = 10s

Snipe - FT - SoS - FT - Ambush(2.0s) > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

 

With LT giving 2 Zeroing Shots:

Ambush(1.5s) - FT - SoS - FT - EP/Snipe > 6GCD = 9s

Snipe - Snipe - FT - Ambush(0.5s) - FT - SoS > 6GCD + 0.5s = 9.5s

 

Of course these are probably not accurate, nor the best rotations for him but they show that there can have a gain that needs to be quantified.

 

Same thing for EP, I agree that 50% may be too much but Clusters bombs should not be all accounted into burst only some of them, by having 4 on the target they'll fully do their damage after 2s, with 8, only after 4s and that's only if the target is being hit every 0.5s by blaster fire, which on a 1v1 situation will happen in worst case scenario every 1.5s so those 8 cluster bombs deal full damage after 12s. However those bombs do give an extra 40 energy (in 12s, worst case scenario) which can be used in advance for additional skills instead of Rifle Shot so there is also a potential gain in damage.

 

Takedown is the only damage-oriented change into LT, given that as much as utility and QoL is good, damage may eventually be needed in an instant and Takedown seemed to me the tool for that.

 

So my idea tries to do is adding utility to LT in a way that such utility keep the focus of Laze Target, but in a way that allows the Sniper the flexibility of choosing when and how to properly utilize his skills. This change given the amount of utility that it may give might need a cooldown between 2 and 3 minutes with my opinion being 3 minutes. One thing I believe could be a better change is instead of giving a second EP it will directly give those extra 4 cluster bombs (or maybe 2) for any spec (with Engineering being the only that gains 5 energy from them).

 

Damn this wall of text >.< hopefully I made myself understandable >.< I really liked your idea apart from the Snipe (Hate Snipe with all my strength lol)

You're right on the 50% damage to 50% time correlation, but it was the only thing I had to go off of other than just guessing a cooldown duration completely. I'd gladly lower the damage of my suggestions to keep the cooldown between 60 and 90 seconds.

Your opinion on Snipe is what has me the most confused. I get that you don't like it, but that's like driving a car and saying you don't like the vehicle because of the reverse gear. Snipe isn't meant to be amazing because it's meant to be used as a utility skill/filler. We can see this by how it's implemented in each tree; MM uses it to gain a Recoil Control proc and Zeroing Shots, Engie uses it to keep Electrified Railgun on three stacks (Overload Shot does less damage), and Lethality/Hybrid only use it when Laze Target is off CD (the most underwhelming use of Snipe among the specs). Having Laze Target give Snipe more damage based on a spec's mechanics is giving it more utility because of the on-demand burst. Don't get me wrong, I can see a lot more options for utility, but a lot of them would fall short in PvE and fail to meet Laze Target's design purpose.

I guess what I was trying to say with my feedback for your suggestion is that I recognize its potential, but I don't like that the damage is inconsistent among the specs. If the LT resulted in a critted Ambush into crit FT, that would be a ton of damage in a short timeframe compared to the Lethality LT. The LT change for EP isn't too much for PvP as it can easily be avoided/the damage be spread out, but for PvE it will be a huge addition. Generally, Ops groups run with 2 MDPS and 2 RDPS; say a Marauder, Juggernaut, Sniper, and Mercenary. Even if the tanks are an Assassin and Juggernaut, those Cluster Bombs may be firing off quickly with the Mercenary helping out. My Ops groups regularly has three Gunslingers (it wasn't intended, I swear), so my Sab Charges and their Contingency Charges would be going off like mad resulting in large amounts of burst. I know my arguments are all situational, but these circumstances aren't unlikely.

Just to clarify my point, I like the idea of added utility resulting in more burst, but I don't like any amount of RNG factoring into the result. Two of your three additions to LT leave room for RNG to wreak havoc on balance, something that the current Laze Target does not allow with the 100% crit chance. I'd feel bad for whoever got stuck on the end of my opening 1.5sec Ambush into FT which both just happened to crit. Your change is really powerful, but the inconsistency makes me cringe at the thought of it having a three minute cooldown.

Hey angels i got your message. So which one should i forward?

If you are asking which suggestion, I was under the impression you were just sending in links to this thread and the voting thread you've been keeping track of. Hence why I had implemented a formatting process to create concise suggestions that can be skimmed. The voting thread shows a small percentage of the community's feelings on Laze Target, and the this thread shows an even smaller portion of the community who has detailed ideas for the ability. In other words, this is just extended reading on the matter.

The purpose of this thread was to show that some players care about the direction of a class by displaying their own ideas. Us creating one suggestion and submitting it, no matter how good, Bioware would just ignore it due to legal reasons and design reasons (we produce different metrics than the combat team). Having a small collection of ideas with different design philosophies and styles in a presentable manner could just give the dev team food for thought.

Just use the following link in the submission: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6702409&postcount=3