Guides for the current expansion can be found through the following post as well as through http://www.Hayete.net

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=849307

That's actually a pretty good guide to be honest... hey, you can never go wrong with people making a contribution to the community, so hats off to you man! Very nice work

Thanks brother! I love the class and more specifically this spec and i know people who have given up on it since 3.0 so was just hoping to showcase that it is still great and capable of being competitive Thanks for the support

I believe there is a problem with the various guides that have surfaced (this one, Vulkk on dulfy.net, and various other "methods" outlined in individual posts). If followed, none of them will lead to competitive dps in an ops situation against other classes, because they do not deal with the core issue of the spec:

How to achieve MasterStrike with Zen during every 2nd precision window.

This is quite difficult, as we must balance focus spending to generate centering in a very short and precise timeframe, lest Zen become out of alignment with that all important "every-second-precision-window". But if achieved, that difficulty will reward us with having dps that is competitive with the other classes.

These various spammy builds that are being detailed on the forums cannot be competitive on a design level, and here is why. Most guides that people are talking about boil down to this:

1. Use Zen on cooldown, no matter how it aligns with precision

2. Use Precision (on cooldown) with MasterStrike when it happens to be under Zen

3. Use Precision (on cooldown) with ClashingBlast and a filler when not under Zen

4. Use a bunch of fillers in between Precision windows

5. If you have ZERO latency, sneak in Dispatch or TST just before Precision for some extra dps

... and that's it? Sorry, but this is preposterously easy, and no matter what we think of the devs, they surely didn't design a system like this with the intent of it being competitive with more difficult rotations/systems in other classes.

Again, the key to this system is aligning Zen and MasterStrike with every other Precision window. Look at it this way: how do we explain the "astounding coincidence" that it is actually possible to do what I'm talking about (given cooldown lenghts) with proper focus vs. centering management if it were NOT meant to be? I say the spec IS meant to be played this way, and the devs designed it with that potential in mind.

I urge the Combat Sentinel community to focus on this issue and share as much information and as many tricks as possible on how to make it happen. This way we can progress to the same level that KBN brought us to pre 3.0 and be a respected spec in the game. Otherwise, I'm afraid we will be mired in mediocrity with uncompetitive dps that will not be suitable to beat HM enrage timers.

As I posted elsewhere, here is what I have found so far, good for 3 uses of MasterStrike under Zen through a total of 5 precision windows:

Leap (Zen in the air) > ZS > BR >

[P+MS > CB ] >

Disp > TST > BR > ZS >

[P+CB > BR] >

BR > BR > Disp > BR (Zen) > ZS

[P+MS > CB] >

TST > BR > BR > ZS >

[P+CB > BR] >

BR > Disp > BR > BR > ZS > BR (Zen) >

[P+MS > CB]

Focus works out exactly for this to work, without having to delay precision for a single GCD (depeding on your lag). Unfortunately, I have not been able to get Zen to align with MS in the next opportunity (7th Precision window), because I run out of focus. In an ops situation this could be solved by the Rebuke and DefensiveForms utilities generating focus, I will have to wait and see how that goes.

Those are my thoughts, I hope more people come onboard and that we can work this out to a fine science.

That is all good in theory and you're spot on with pretty much everything you put there. However... from experience i'm telling you that you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time pulling that off in a raid situation. I dont teach people how to be the best on a Dummy, standing still, on your ship, with no mechanics involved. I do however teach the knowledge you need to be competitive and progressive in raid scenarios. I do not think there is a single fight in the new 3.0 SMs/HMs where you would have enough time to pull off what you are suggesting. Does what you propose make sense, Absolutely. Is it in fact practical, in my opinion no. With that said i'm sure Vulkk would agree with me.

As far as being competitive the vast majority of the time i top the DPS boards in damage on boss fights, generally on trash too. There are only two other Combat Sentinels on Jedi Covenant who i know will out do me everytime. With that said it's always very close, very close. You're competitive comment i personally think holds no water when people are out there doing the complete opposite using these same techniques. Thanks for the comment though mate.

That is all good in theory and you're spot on with pretty much everything you put there. However... from experience i'm telling you that you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time pulling that off in a raid situation. I dont teach people how to be the best on a Dummy, standing still, on your ship, with no mechanics involved. I do however teach the knowledge you need to be competitive and progressive in raid scenarios. I do not think there is a single fight in the new 3.0 SMs/HMs where you would have enough time to pull off what you are suggesting. Does what you propose make sense, Absolutely. Is it in fact practical, in my opinion no. With that said i'm sure Vulkk would agree with me.

 

As far as being competitive the vast majority of the time i top the DPS boards in damage on boss fights, generally on trash too. There are only two other Combat Sentinels on Jedi Covenant who i know will out do me everytime. With that said it's always very close, very close. You're competitive comment i personally think holds no water when people are out there doing the complete opposite using these same techniques. Thanks for the comment though mate.

Pretty much. Guides are important for getting the basics. What really matters is how quickly a player can adapt and improvise during an encounter, and how good they are at avoiding death and unnecessary damage. Death = zero dps

BTW I didn't see Saber Ward mentioned in your guide. It may also be useful to talk about managing centering stacks for utility vs zen.

Pretty much. Guides are important for getting the basics. What really matters is how quickly a player can adapt and improvise during an encounter, and how good they are at avoiding death and unnecessary damage. Death = zero dps

 

BTW I didn't see Saber Ward mentioned in your guide. It may also be useful to talk about managing centering stacks for utility vs zen.

Hey good looking out man! Not sure how in the world i skipped that but it has been written in now.

For your second suggestion I actually touch on this point in the video guide addition referring to utility in using Inspiration (or Transendence) vs Zen.

Thanks again!

Raid situations are different then dummy parsing but the "best" filler for a Gore/PS remains the same. To effectively DPS in raid you need to monitor your Centering/Fury, both building and using, and judge what Gore/PS window to use Ravage/MS, and if you should use or hold it because of mechanics. Ravage\MS should NOT be used without Berserk\Zen, you risk misisng the 3rd hit as well as it being impossible to regularly hit DB\CB.

I would argue it's just as difficult now as it was pre 2.10 as you have to watch Centering/Fury stacking, use it at the right time, dump the stacks of Zen/Berserk, repeat all while trying to effectively line it up with Gore/PS windows.

I actually find easier on raids to get MS inside a PS window since there is a higher centering generation.

After practice and with experience it does line up roughly every second Precision as far as using Master Strike. However with alot of the new raid mechanics, Sparky in Ravagers is a great example with his Rampage, if you're going through your rotation and priorities correctly your Master Strike will have to be delayed at some point because of raid/boss mechanics. Not an opinion, its a fact. You are correct though Centering comes alot faster in 3.0 than before.

@ Sarafain - I could not agree with you more, absolutely spot on mate.

... you will have an EXTREMELY difficult time pulling that off in a raid situation. I dont teach people how to be the best on a Dummy, standing still, on your ship, with no mechanics involved. I do however teach the knowledge you need to be competitive and progressive in raid scenarios.

Sustaining what I propose is actually impossible on a dummy, because after that 5th Precision window, there is not enough focus to generate enough centering for the next Zen+MS. It is precisely in raid situations that the focus WILL be available because of our focus generating utilities.

With regards to difficulty, I think that's the point. What I'm proposing is very difficult, but I believe executing it successfully will yield the best results. My comment about competitiveness is not directed at the state of things right now, but towards the near future when all dps will have full 192s from SM with the 6-piece bonus, a few 198s (i.e. off-hand) from Ultimate comms and working through HM. On this even playing field (in HM), I think the summary that the available guides boil down to cannot possibly compete with other classes that are played well. If it DOES, the calls for "Nerf Combat" will be deafening. Because despite the apparent attention to detail in the guides we have seen, the methods they propose are in my opinion preposterously easy.

Sustaining what I propose is actually impossible on a dummy, because after that 5th Precision window, there is not enough focus to generate enough centering for the next Zen+MS. It is precisely in raid situations that the focus WILL be available because of our focus generating utilities.

 

With regards to difficulty, I think that's the point. What I'm proposing is very difficult, but I believe executing it successfully will yield the best results. My comment about competitiveness is not directed at the state of things right now, but towards the near future when all dps will have full 192s from SM with the 6-piece bonus, a few 198s (i.e. off-hand) from Ultimate comms and working through HM. On this even playing field (in HM), I think the summary that the available guides boil down to cannot possibly compete with other classes that are played well. If it DOES, the calls for "Nerf Combat" will be deafening. Because despite the apparent attention to detail in the guides we have seen, the methods they propose are in my opinion preposterously easy.

From personal experience ( 10/10 Ravagers/ToS SM and already clearing multiple bosses in HM) your proposed rotation will not work. I've been playing Combat spec since December 20 2011, i.e. when the game went live. All content SM - NiM i've cleared with this same character and what you are suggesting cannot be done on every encounter, on every boss (In my opinion cannot be done on 90% of the bosses regardless of 'Mode' difficulty). The time it takes to go through what you're saying is to long (and stationary) with ever changing situations in fights.

With that said. Not having enough energy as you stated is a problem correct? How do propose you'll deal with that even in a boss fight? Rebuke? Defensive Forms? If your entire strategy relies on an ability with a 1 minute cool down and the assumption you'll be taking damage then First, i think your doing yourself a disservice and Second (since you keep throwing the Devs around in your posts) do you really expect the Devs to have created a class spec that you have to have 3 different utilities (Jedi Enforcer, Jedi Crusader, Jedi Promulgator), constantly be taking damage of some type, and constantly be using a defensive ability to pull off correctly? My friend you're thinking illogically. If by some chance what i JUST said was how to play this spec best right now with the current patch the Devs would surely alter it and fix that because they've already stated (Pre 3.0 in the live streams) how they want each class played not to mention they stated where each DPS type should fall as far as numbers on a parse (Dont believe me go back and rewatch the Sentinel Stream) For the numbers they laid out for Burst/DoT Based/Ranged vs Melee Sentinel Combat spec DPS is Exactly where it should be following not only my Guide but others out there as well.

My Final thought on this whole debate is as follows. Not only on this thread but others you keep copy and pasting the same information that started this debate. You argue that this can be pulled off in Raid Boss fights. You keep saying "How to achieve MasterStrike with Zen during every 2nd precision window." Here is my challenge to you. Complete either ToS or Ravagers on SM (Not to much to ask there, they're not difficult) while doing so record yourself and parse yourself so that your parse can be seen IN the video, then upload the fights doing what you propose (Since you came up with it you should be able to do it). I'll do the same using the methods that I, and many others, teach and we'll let the evidence speak for itself. I know you said HM with optimized gear and 6 set but lets be honest if you're speaking about things where people just are not at yet then why are we wasting time on this conversation predicting the future, you feel me? So that's my challenge and lets see what happens. With that said i appreciate your feedback and our discussion, I think its healthy and keeps us all on our toes. However, this will be the last comment from me regarding your post as I want this forum thread to stay progressive and not a back and forth debate on one point Thanks mate!

Sustaining what I propose is actually impossible on a dummy, because after that 5th Precision window, there is not enough focus to generate enough centering for the next Zen+MS. It is precisely in raid situations that the focus WILL be available because of our focus generating utilities.

 

With regards to difficulty, I think that's the point. What I'm proposing is very difficult, but I believe executing it successfully will yield the best results. My comment about competitiveness is not directed at the state of things right now, but towards the near future when all dps will have full 192s from SM with the 6-piece bonus, a few 198s (i.e. off-hand) from Ultimate comms and working through HM. On this even playing field (in HM), I think the summary that the available guides boil down to cannot possibly compete with other classes that are played well. If it DOES, the calls for "Nerf Combat" will be deafening. Because despite the apparent attention to detail in the guides we have seen, the methods they propose are in my opinion preposterously easy.

You can do MS every other PS window easily on Dummy. Also you should remember that combat is a series of priorities more than a set rotation. A good sentinel will be able to predict his focus and centering generation during a raid setting.

Complete either ToS or Ravagers on SM (Not to much to ask there, they're not difficult) while doing so record yourself and parse yourself so that your parse can be seen IN the video, then upload the fights doing what you propose (Since you came up with it you should be able to do it).

Perhaps I wasn't clear with my point, hence the above misunderstanding. I am not saying that I CAN do it while you and others CAN'T. What I am saying is that I also CAN'T do it (consistantly), but I believe that there is a way and that we should as a "combat spec community" focus on that, because that is where I believe lies the greatest damage potential.

You can do MS every other PS window easily on Dummy. Also you should remember that combat is a series of priorities more than a set rotation.

If so, I would very much like to know what you do after the 5th Precision window (3rd MasterStrike), because that's where I run into my focus/centering generation problems. I certainly agree with the priorities idea, but concentrating solely on "priorities" is precisely what leads to Zen not being available when one needs it before MS.

Hey there Twin Saber Fans!

Just wanted to say thank you to all those who have contacted me saying the Guide helped them in some way. I hope everyone is enjoying SoR Happy New Year All!

I posted on the guide in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=780810&page=5

The debate in this thread is arguing the same points and that is you need to stick with the optimal DPS rotation; In a Ops environment this means possibly delaying Berserk/Gore/Ravage to deal with mechanics. Ops also change the rate of Rage/Fury gain but you still need to know what abilities to use to keep actions per minute up which is where practicing on a dummy will help.

IMO one of the BIG things missing from your guide is a focus on actions per minute. Through practicing on the dummy I've brought my APM a bit and that has significantly increased my DPS. Another way of seeing it is each action averages about 75-85 DPS.

You're right in that the more familiar with the spec the better the APM. It's common sense to that the more buttons you hit the higher your dps will be, what's not is that you need to hit 46+ APM before you'll see competitive parses.

I just did a quick skim through current guides and see no mention, in any, about having higher APM available then other classes and the need to use those high APM to get high DPS. I mentioned/suggest including it as there are several posts about low dps where people explain they are following the rotation/priorities but still having low dps.

Hey guys!

So quick update here with the guide. I've made a new video which is just about as indepth as i could make it. I've added in some, if not all, of the suggestions and feedback I've received from you guys and have also updated the text based guide to include this new information. Furthermore, I've added some 'Quick Links' under each section of the text guide which will take you to that specific topic in the video for those who do not have time to watch the entire guide, those who do not wish to, or those who just are looking for a quick refresh or reference to a specific topic. Thanks again for your support and feedback. I've had a pretty positive response to the guide both on the forums and while running around in game. As always if any of you have questions feel free to hit me up here, in game on Hayete, or through Enjin (Link is in the video guide description area). With that said Happy New Year everyone and happy DPSing!

Link in your signature would be useful

Done and Done