The story content has exactly the same value it always had. Bioware has simply made a business choice to NOT CHARGE FOR IT in it's new flexible access model. That is their choice to make. Such a choice does not devalue the story content in any way.

Lol, yes it does. The story content is the majority of the game.

Wow, that is some serious twisted logic, no offense.

 

Basic law of economics, the value of something is what people are willing to pay for it. Since people now pay $0 for the story, the value of that story content is now $0. The value USED to be $15. This is an unarguable fact. BioWare/EA said "we are giving this away for free" which means it is now worth $0, like AOL choosing to send out free installation discs. The story content is now by the dictionary definition, worthless. You HAVE to factor that into the equation, you cannot omit it. If you can factor that in, and continue your side of the debate, I will genuinely listen to what you have to say, if you continue to spin it in the ridiculous way of trying to make BioWare/EA sound like a 501c3 non-profit charity that is all "doing us a favor", then your posts will be blank to me.

Actualy thats only one model, ill give you a real life example of another, prince the singer you know him, he gave away his albums for free, no one had to spend a money, he gained money from getting more people to listen to his music and they ended up going to his live show, he got so many extra people due to this that a 20 night event turned into a 30 night event.

Swtor basically does the same thing, get the product out there and then reap the rewards from the cartel market, they have stated that the coins we get dont only allow us to get any extra stuff we want that drops on the cm like the cathar but we are also getting a discount ontop of it.

Let me phrase it this way.

It is literally (as in literally) impossible, let me say again, IMPOSSIBLE, to pay for story content.

So, how does the $15 sub pay for as much as it did when you HAD to pay for story content?

Basic law of economics, the value of something is what people are willing to pay for it. Since people now pay $0 for the story, the value of that story content is now $0. The value USED to be $15. This is an unarguable fact.

You are confusing what a MMO company choose to charge with actual value.

They changed their business model. Part of that change is to decide what aspects they will charge for and what aspects they will not charge for under a new dual access business model. No more, no less.

as stated above by another poster.. by any objective reference standard... subscribers have more access to more content then they did back in November when the new business model went live. This is in fact true of all MMOs actually... over time.. the subscription price remains the same.. but there is more and more content inside the MMO (from patches and expansions, free or one time buy) then prior months of access. So on a strictly value proposition basis... flat fee subscription customers of MMOs get more for less over time (regardless of the specific business model applied).

Wow, that is some serious twisted logic, no offense.

 

Basic law of economics, the value of something is what people are willing to pay for it. Since people now pay $0 for the story, the value of that story content is now $0. The value USED to be $15. This is an unarguable fact. BioWare/EA said "we are giving this away for free" which means it is now worth $0, like AOL choosing to send out free installation discs. The story content is now by the dictionary definition, worthless. You HAVE to factor that into the equation, you cannot omit it. If you can factor that in, and continue your side of the debate, I will genuinely listen to what you have to say, if you continue to spin it in the ridiculous way of trying to make BioWare/EA sound like a 501c3 non-profit charity that is all "doing us a favor", then your posts will be blank to me.

I don't think anyone is claiming Bioware is a non-profit charity or anything like that. It's simply that some of us realize that Bioware is a business, and have to realize a sufficient profit to keep the game running. If you have a problem with paying, then stop.

Let me phrase it this way.

 

It is literally (as in literally) impossible, let me say again, IMPOSSIBLE, to pay for story content.

 

So, how does the $15 sub pay for as much as it did when you HAD to pay for story content?

You can phrase it any way you want. As a subscriber.. you have more content for the same subscription price then you had 3 months ago, 6 months ago, 12 months ago, or at launch. That's one of the unique qualities of MMOs... same low price.. more content over time. The fact that Bioware chooses to allow access to some of that content to premium/free players is irrelevant. But hey.. if you disagree.. the smart move would be to unsub and play for free, right?

You are confusing what a MMO company choose to charge with actual value.

 

They changed their business model. Part of that change is to decide what aspects they will charge for and what aspects they will not charge for under a new dual access business model. No more, no less.

 

as stated above by another poster.. by any objective reference standard... subscribers have more access to more content then they did back in November when the new business model went live. This is in fact true of all MMOs actually... over time.. the subscription price remains the same.. but there is more and more content inside the MMO (from patches and expansions, free or one time buy) then prior months of access. So on a strictly value proposition basis... flat fee subscription customers of MMOs get more for less over time (regardless of the specific business model applied).

No, you are misconstruing the definition of value in an economics argument. The economical definition of "value" is:

"monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade"

If you charge $0 for something, then you are valuing the item at $0. What it "means to you" and the "blood sweat and tears" that went into creating it, DOES NOT MATTER. It's value is $0. Period. You cannot argue this.

That being said, I say again, you cannot pay for story content. So what you are PAYING for, has changed, whether you like it or not. You cannot pay for story content... you CANNOT pay for story content. So what are you paying for? The subscriber benefits outside of story content (which we had before) plus 500 cartel coins. So you can say "well, the story content before was the $5 out of the $15 subscription fee" and you are valuing the rest of the benefits (credit caps, character slots, etc.) at $10/mo. That's fine, but BioWare is not offering the subscription model at $10/mo. They only offer $15... so now, the story content has been replaced by $5 worth of Cartel Coins as a subscriber benefit (i.e. this SHOULD be your argument, but you keep missing it).

I would actually prefer to take the "complimentary" cartel coins off the table and have them offer a $10 subscription, because yes, when you look at value (as in the actual economical definition) they HAVE "taken something away" since you can no longer pay for story content, and replaced it with $5 worth of their in-game currency.

EDIT: Also, the story content that you CAN pay for (i.e. RotHC) subscribers have to pay additional for.

No, you are misconstruing the definition of value in an economics argument. The economical definition of "value" is:

 

"monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade"

 

If you charge $0 for something, then you are valuing the item at $0. What it "means to you" and the "blood sweat and tears" that went into creating it, DOES NOT MATTER. It's value is $0. Period. You cannot argue this.

 

That being said, I say again, you cannot pay for story content. So what you are PAYING for, has changed, whether you like it or not. You cannot pay for story content... you CANNOT pay for story content. So what are you paying for? The subscriber benefits outside of story content (which we had before) plus 500 cartel coins. So you can say "well, the story content before was the $5 out of the $15 subscription fee" and you are valuing the rest of the benefits (credit caps, character slots, etc.) at $10/mo. That's fine, but BioWare is not offering the subscription model at $10/mo. They only offer $15... so now, the story content has been replaced by $5 worth of Cartel Coins as a subscriber benefit (i.e. this SHOULD be your argument, but you keep missing it).

 

I would actually prefer to take the "complimentary" cartel coins off the table and have them offer a $10 subscription, because yes, when you look at value (as in the actual economical definition) they HAVE "taken something away" since you can no longer pay for story content, and replaced it with $5 worth of their in-game currency.

I agree

If you charge $0 for something, then you are valuing the item at $0. What it "means to you" and the "blood sweat and tears" that went into creating it, DOES NOT MATTER. It's value is $0. Period. You cannot argue this.

If you actually charge $0 for a product yes. However, you are distorting for you own convenience. you are fractioning the product and trying to use micro-economics to argue macro-economics.

Bioware has done the same thing many MMO companies do.. including pure subscription MMOs... the are giving away a portion of their old content at no charge. However, the majority of this games content today (not at launch, but today) remains accessible to subscrbers only, or to premium players who "pay as you go"

Again... more content today.. for the same subscription price then before F2P.

In the end.. "value" rests only in the eyes of the consumer. A company endeavors to create value sufficient to get the consumer to consume. If you don't see the value... find something that meets your personal value requirements IMO.

Nothing is free:

There is a proposal under consideration in the Tennessee General Assembly to apply the state's sales tax to "free" meals provided to hotel customers. The argument is that complimentary breakfasts are currently being provided tax-free.

 

There are a lot of complicated concepts in taxation and economics, but "free" is not one of them. In short, nothing is free. You may be familiar with the adage "there is no such thing as a free lunch," which stems from the observation that while some things may seem free there is always a cost, even if that cost is distributed among people who do not receive the benefits.

 

In this specific case we might coin our own phrase: "there is no such thing as a complimentary breakfast." The cost of providing a "complimentary" breakfast is obviously included in the cost of renting a hotel room. While that cost is spread around to all guests, some of which may not actually eat the breakfast, it is not provided for free. A correct statement would be to say that for someone who has already made the decision to rent a hotel room, there is no marginal (or additional) cost to eating that breakfast of cold cereal, yogurt, and donuts. But that does not make it free.

 

Since the breakfasts are part of the cost of hotel rooms, and rooms are taxed by state and local sales taxes, it follows that the breakfasts are also taxed. I would also note that not only are hotel rooms taxed under state (7%) and local (2.41% average) sales taxes in Tennessee, but they are also taxed by many local jurisdictions that levy hotel occupancy taxes, with total rates getting as high as 17.25%. Adding a tax for the meals would double-tax those meals.

 

Reagan Farr, commissioner of the Tennessee Department of Revenue, says that "Tennessee is an anomaly among the 50 states" because it does not tax these meals. That may be, but (to borrow another favorite parenting phrase) if every revenue department commissioner in the country jumped off a bridge, would you do it to?

 

Remember kids, in some cases, being an anomaly is a good thing.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/there-no-such-thing-complimentary-breakfast

If you actually charge $0 for a product yes. However, you are distorting for you own convenience. you are fractioning the product and trying to use micro-economics to argue macro-economics.

 

Bioware has done the same thing many MMO companies do.. including pure subscription MMOs... the are giving away a portion of their old content at no charge. However, the majority of this games content today (not at launch, but today) remains accessible to subscrbers only, or to premium players who "pay as you go"

 

Again... more content today.. for the same subscription price then before F2P.

 

In the end.. "value" rests only in the eyes of the consumer. A company endeavors to create value sufficient to get the consumer to consume. If you don't see the value... find something that meets your personal value requirements IMO.

More content like? What do subs get that is more?

Nothing is free:

 

 

 

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/there-no-such-thing-complimentary-breakfast

Sales tax is covered as an surcharge to your subscription.

Arguing taxes in this discussion is completely out of context to the discussion about complimentary coins.

Sales tax is covered as an surcharge to your subscription.

 

Arguing taxes in this discussion is completely out of context to the discussion about complimentary coins.

Perhaps you need to read the article better.

I remember when free to play started up here and what was promised to subs was called a monthly Grant. They did not add in the word "Complementary" to later.

Starting this fall, there will be two different ways to play Star Wars: The Old Republic:

Subscription – A service designed for players who want unrestricted access to all the game features via ongoing subscription or by redeeming a Game Time Card. In addition to gaining access to all game content as our current subscribers do now, Subscribers will receive ongoing monthly grants of Cartel Coins*, the new virtual currency that will be introduced later this fall. Cartel Coins can be used to purchase valuable items including customizable gear and convenience features that will enhance the game play experience.

Free-to-Play –The first 50 levels will be free-to-play, with some restrictions on access to new content and advanced player features. Some restrictions can be “unlocked” with Cartel Coins.

http://www.swtor.com/info/news/press-release/20120731

Complementary is just a marketing tool, in this case added after the fact.

I remember when free to play started up here and what was promised to subs was called a monthly Grant. They did not add in the word "Complementary" to later.

 

Starting this fall, there will be two different ways to play Star Wars: The Old Republic:

 

Subscription – A service designed for players who want unrestricted access to all the game features via ongoing subscription or by redeeming a Game Time Card. In addition to gaining access to all game content as our current subscribers do now, Subscribers will receive ongoing monthly grants of Cartel Coins*, the new virtual currency that will be introduced later this fall. Cartel Coins can be used to purchase valuable items including customizable gear and convenience features that will enhance the game play experience.

Free-to-Play –The first 50 levels will be free-to-play, with some restrictions on access to new content and advanced player features. Some restrictions can be “unlocked” with Cartel Coins.

 

http://www.swtor.com/info/news/press-release/20120731

 

Complementary is just a marketing tool, in this case added after the fact.

Interesting find. I think the larger point of the current debate is why BioWare/EA seems to be pushing people to the Preferred section of their business model by de-valuing the subscription model. By charging for things like the Cathar Race instead of including it in the subscription cost (which then would mean you have it as long as you're subbed, and thus, could lose it from unsubbing), it seems that BioWare is not valuing their subscribers or trying to gain more.

Perhaps you need to read the article better.

No I do not. I got the point of the article.. and the point that you are trying to invoke a nonsequitur to the discussion.

More content like? What do subs get that is more?

Read your patch notes since launch Princess.

I understand your issue as you have expressed it.

 

Let me ask you three simple questions:

 

1) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR before F2P?

 

2) what was the price of a subscription to SWTOR after F2P?

 

3) What is the difference between the answer to 1 and the answer to 2?

 

I'll answer number 3 ahead of you: ZERO + CARTEL COINS

You are consistent, at least. (By the way, you complaining about another poster being passive aggressive literally had me laughing. Best thing ever.)

So, rather than play your game, let's answer the underlying question to this mess I've quoted, shall we? You would like to argue that because the price of a subscription hasn't changed therefore any additional value added by cartel coins is "free." This, of course, completely ignores that the value of the subscription has changed, which has been pointed out by other posters and, of course, dismissed by you, usually using unnecessary business jargon. Like I said...consistent. (My assumption is that you use this jargon either to make yourself appear more educated or to try to intimidate other posters so they don't realize how poor your arguments are. I haven't quite decided which yet. Might be a combination of both, two for one deal.)

However, here's the thing. Does it matter that the price of a sub hasn't changed in a year? Nope. When I look at what I'm paying this month, I take stock of what I'm paying for right now. The cartel coins are part of that package. I see those coins as something I paid for. You can argue and argue till you're blue in the face, but really it's just a matter of how you view those coins. You view them a purely an extra, and that's fine. Roll with that. No big. But putting down other people and saying their views aren't valid because you don't agree with them is ridiculous.

Oh, and just in case you were wondering, I don't really do passive aggressive very well, so let me be clear. You lost my respect a long time ago and nothing I've seen lately changes that.

Read your patch notes since launch Princess.

That is not a subscriber benefit though. The patch note changes are available for free. I specifically asked what you get that is MORE for being a subscriber.

That is not a subscriber benefit though. The patch note changes are available for free. I specifically asked what you get that is MORE for being a subscriber.

More fun than ever before

NEWS FLASH: No ones going to win this debate.

It's because the debate isn't actually happening. Points are being made, questions are being asked, and people are more inclined to "sound" right than actually do what a debate is supposed to do, and that is explore the issue. So yes, you're right.

You are consistent, at least. (By the way, you complaining about another poster being passive aggressive literally had me laughing. Best thing ever.)

 

So, rather than play your game, let's answer the underlying question to this mess I've quoted, shall we? You would like to argue that because the price of a subscription hasn't changed therefore any additional value added by cartel coins is "free." This, of course, completely ignores that the value of the subscription has changed, which has been pointed out by other posters and, of course, dismissed by you, usually using unnecessary business jargon. Like I said...consistent. (My assumption is that you use this jargon either to make yourself appear more educated or to try to intimidate other posters so they don't realize how poor your arguments are. I haven't quite decided which yet. Might be a combination of both, two for one deal.)

 

However, here's the thing. Does it matter that the price of a sub hasn't changed in a year? Nope. When I look at what I'm paying this month, I take stock of what I'm paying for right now. The cartel coins are part of that package. I see those coins as something I paid for. You can argue and argue till you're blue in the face, but really it's just a matter of how you view those coins. You view them a purely an extra, and that's fine. Roll with that. No big. But putting down other people and saying their views aren't valid because you don't agree with them is ridiculous.

 

Oh, and just in case you were wondering, I don't really do passive aggressive very well, so let me be clear. You lost my respect a long time ago and nothing I've seen lately changes that.

You say that the value of your sub has changed, and that is accurate. Subscribers get a much larger amount of content then they did at launch. Based on your philosophy, Bioware should have been increasing the sub price each time they released new content, so as not to devalue the older stuff.

"-Karagga's Palace? That'll be $16 per month please.

-EC? Only $17.50 per month now.

-Novare coast? $19, thank you very much.

-TFB? Ancient Hypergates? Oops, we spent a bit more time on these ones. $25 is fair, I think....

but then...

-Guess what, all! We're going F2P!! 1-50 is going to be free of charge, but just so we don't make subscribers feel like they're getting screwed, we're going to drop your sub price to $15, and that will include unrestricted access to all current content!!! And just so you can access your choice of the new CM content, we're going to give all subscribers a CC gift for your loyalty, and an addtional 500 CC per month!!"

Is that what you wanted to see?

Edit - Just to clarify, I think this would have been ridiculous, and would have cancelled long ago, but this seems to be what would have made you happy.

You say that the value of your sub has changed, and that is accurate. Subscribers get a much larger amount of content then they did at launch. Based on your philosophy, Bioware should have been increasing the sub price each time they released new content, so as not to devalue the older stuff.

 

"-Karagga's Palace? That'll be $16 per month please.

-EC? Only $17.50 per month now.

-Novare coast? $19, thank you very much.

-TFB? Ancient Hypergates? Oops, we spent a bit more time on these ones. $25 is fair, I think....

 

but then...

 

-Guess what, all! We're going F2P!! 1-50 is going to be free of charge, but just so we don't make subscribers feel like they're getting screwed, we're going to drop your sub price to $15, and that will include unrestricted access to all current content!!! And just so you can access your choice of the new CM content, we're going to give all subscribers a CC gift for your loyalty, and an addtional 500 CC per month!!"

 

Is that what you wanted to see?

 

Edit - Just to clarify, I think this would have been ridiculous, and would have cancelled long ago, but this seems to be what would have made you happy.

You're inadvertently describing a DLC model. If the game were $60 to begin with and no sub fee, then what you're describing (charging for new zones) would actually make sense. But this was/is a subscription model game, i.e. you are continually paying for the game. In your mind, this would be like a $15/mo charge for the "chance" for them to release new DLC. A game like Guild Wars is more like what you're talking about. The original had several expansions that you had to buy, but once you did, you owned them, and didn't have to pay for them every month.

You say that the value of your sub has changed, and that is accurate. Subscribers get a much larger amount of content then they did at launch. Based on your philosophy, Bioware should have been increasing the sub price each time they released new content, so as not to devalue the older stuff.

 

"-Karagga's Palace? That'll be $16 per month please.

-EC? Only $17.50 per month now.

-Novare coast? $19, thank you very much.

-TFB? Ancient Hypergates? Oops, we spent a bit more time on these ones. $25 is fair, I think....

 

but then...

 

-Guess what, all! We're going F2P!! 1-50 is going to be free of charge, but just so we don't make subscribers feel like they're getting screwed, we're going to drop your sub price to $15, and that will include unrestricted access to all current content!!! And just so you can access your choice of the new CM content, we're going to give all subscribers a CC gift for your loyalty, and an addtional 500 CC per month!!"

 

Is that what you wanted to see?

 

Edit - Just to clarify, I think this would have been ridiculous, and would have cancelled long ago, but this seems to be what would have made you happy.

To be honest, I'm not following your argument in its entirety. My philosophy, so to speak, is that I weigh what I get in game each month vs what I pay, and I decide whether or not it's worth it to keep paying. Now, part of what I see as a valuable part of my subscription is the cartel coins. I can assure you, if they increased the prices as you are describing, I would have unsubbed long ago and I suspect the game would be dead.

Correct. That's what society has fallen to. Degenerate trolls. People who only insult and demean others rather than having intelligent conversation.

 

And I agree with everything you have said. Well said, all of it.

That's why businesses rely on focus groups instead of message boards. It's so hard to pick out the valuable conversations on forum posts, but when you get everyone in the room, there is a different social construct and you factor in things like public speaking and personality types. On the internet, everyone's a genius who knows everything, so you can't really sift through the nonsense to get to the real meat of anything worthwhile.

I just posted a thread about potential subscriber benefits and all I'm getting is flamed... this playerbase makes me lose faith in humanity and I am starting to understand why EA is voted worst company in America, because if I were the Dev's/Exec's and I read this nonsense, I'd hate my customer's too.

Everyone seems to be fine with less, so why give more?