It's not "Pay To Win". What are you "winning"? Is this some sort of competition?

This is in contradiction with the following statement:

If I can get Black Hole Comms from doing the new missions, then I have yet another way to *earn* the nicer gear which will *help* my fellow teammates when we are raiding.

People who do the whole raiding thing every week tend to be the Achiever type on the Bartle personality test. Here's what is written on the Wikipedia about that personality type:

Also known as "Diamonds," these are players who prefer to gain "points," levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.

 

 

Multi-player appeal to the Achiever

One of the appeals of online gaming to the Achiever is that he or she has the opportunity to show off their skill and hold elite status to others. They value (or despise) the competition from other Achievers, and look to the Socializers to give them praise. ...

 

In many ways, the Achiever is the style of play most targeted by the MMORPG genre. In many successful MMOs, there is always something else to achieve; even when the character has reached the highest level, there are usually rare items to obtain and objectives that were bypassed the first time around. Since Achievers can sometimes set very obscure goals for themselves, especially if they feel like they'll be (among) the first to achieve them, they may spend long periods of time engaging in a repetitive action in order to get one more award.

So for achievers, in order to compete on an even playing field with people spending real-life cash, you must spend it as well. That sucks. We don't even get to earn our gear, we have to buy it first, then do the missions. That's stupid and makes me angry. I'm not an angry person, but this pay-to-win business after they explicitly stated PVE would not be affected by the cartel market has me punching my car and swearing obscenities.

Lets see what Jeff Hickman has to say about Pay to win....

Q: The major question about F2P; when any F2P project is announced or talked about is what’s gonna be in the cash shop? Lets just put this question out there in as plain and as simple form as possible. What’s your stance on Pay to Win?

 

A: Pay to win is not something that we like. I don’t want to unbalance the game by putting things out on the store that somebody can walk in on day one, buy and be the winner.

Sounds good. I wish they had stuck to that with space. Lets see what else he has to say.

Having said that, there will be some things that we put out in the store that do enhance power value in some way, but not at the top end.

Not the top end? So just like the crystals that you can equip at a lower level and have end-game stats right?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Not like, max-level space parts the first day that they're added that require stabalizers and hundreds of fleet comms to craft? Not the top end? More to say have you?

Trying to think of a good example. We may put a medium level blue piece of armor on the cash shop for example.

 

We might do that. We haven’t decided and we’re still talking about this, but it’s one of those things it is like … most players will have something better than this anyway, but if you don’t here’s the way that you can get a leg up to at least make you equal with the normal players.

Did most players have better than best-in-slot space gear? No, I guess that is technically not possible.

That is kind of where our thinking is at, but we are still discussing it. But we do not believe in Pay to Win.

I'm going to go punch my car now.

Just curious, but what's the point of playing after you've bought the best, and then maybe done the end game content once through?

Same reason I still play Esseles and Black Talon (and watch each and every cutscene in its fullest). Because I enjoy the content and what that content offers. The rewards are just a perk. 90% of the quest rewards I get throughout each planet are not any better than what my toon is already wearing. I still play them because I enjoy the experience.

Lets pretend that you and I are in the same guild, we play the same spec, and are equally skilled. Lets say a new tier of content comes out, and with it the game goes pay to win. You immediately buy your gear from the store, but I don't. All the sudden you and I go from equally geared to you being far better geared than I. So you start pulling more DPS, and because you do more DPS, you get to raid a lot more than I do.

 

Not only that, but then our other guild DPS look at your numbers and think, 'wow, I have to buy gear too to catch up'. So then one person and then another all buy their gear. Shortly it becomes the norm for our guild, and the guild shuns anyone that doesn't buy gear. Then all the sudden our guild is the top guild on the server, and all the other guilds start having the same philosophy to keep up.

That argument is not logically valid. The reason one "should" be in a guild is that they enjoy playing with the people in that guild because they enjoy playing in the same manner. Just like hanging out with a bunch of real life friends. We all enjoy doing the same thing and share the same interests. Not to say there are things that we wouldn't disagree upon, but overall we have the same outlook on life. Just like real life friends, if a guild shows that they don't show the same interests that I do, I go find another guild.

BJ

 

So for achievers, in order to compete on an even playing field with people spending real-life cash, you must spend it as well. That sucks. We don't even get to earn our gear, we have to buy it first, then do the missions. That's stupid and makes me angry. I'm not an angry person, but this pay-to-win business after they explicitly stated PVE would not be affected by the cartel market has me punching my car and swearing obscenities.

You can earn 100 coms and 100k a day doing the older missions (takes about an hour). That is how you would earn the parts.

 

1. The player who shells out the money can begin completing the new Heroic Space missions right away. Which gives them another source of Black Hole comms. Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't. This is "Pay to Win" in every sense of the phrase. You are deluding yourself if you can't see this.

 

How are you arriving at this conclusion?

According to Dulfy, I can earn 14 Black hole coms per week doing this. You can earn 159 per week grinding. It takes 495 coms to fully gear. That means that it will take me 35 weeks to fully gear doing these space missions, and it would take you just 3.1 weeks to do so.

I hardly see this as an issue that would require some 85 pages of hysteria of the magnitude I am seeing in this thread, and it is certainly not what one could call, "play to win".

How are you arriving at this conclusion?

 

According to Dulfy, I can earn 14 Black hole coms per week doing this. You can earn 159 per week grinding. It takes 495 coms to fully gear. That means that it will take me 35 weeks to fully gear doing these space missions, and it would take you just 3.1 weeks to do so.

 

I hardly see this as an issue that would require some 85 pages of hysteria of the magnitude I am seeing in this thread, and it is certainly not what one could call, "play to win".

Oh come on, you have been in gaming forums as long as I have. You should know by now that logic and reasoning have no business in a place called "General Forums."

Again how is a subscription paying to win. It's paying for the service as intended. This is a dangerous, dangerous and cancerous "repurposing" of words. Paying a subscription is the intended idea. Playing for free is not and should never be. Games are a luxury. They are not and never should be given away for free. Ever. You and your camp are spinning and twisting the definition of Pay to Win to make subscribers appear as the bad guy. It is your camp that is the bad guy here. You are following Alinsky's Rules for Radicals when you do that. And that is reprehensible.

But services change. This is no longer a subscription based model of a game, therefore the rules have changed. The rest of your post really stands out though. Where is the Gaming Bible that says games are a luxury? Where does it say they should never be given away for free (the millions of pirates out there would disagree with you I think). It is not your place to say what someone does with their own creation. If someone wants to spend their time and money to create a game and give it away for free, then that is their prerogative. You may not like it, but then again I never heard that life was supposed to be fair or that we were supposed to like everything life handed to us (and those that do say that are ... well, my mother did tell me that if I didn't have anything nice to say...)

BJ

If you are making this childish rant as a means of insulting me for being honest about my intent. I can live with that. ;p

 

Subscribers bailed on this game by the boatload. New content was held as a result and resources redirected. The game was dying a slow death prior to CC. A few of us held on hoping for a revitalization. It came in the form of CC and a decision to move in a different direction rather then let the game go.

 

New players that enjoy the CC have flocked in. Servers are now as full as I've ever seen them, new content has been released, people are having fun again. The entire industry is slowly exploring this option and moving in that direction. Players, obvious by the numbers, are moving there also. I see no indication that the "integrity" of the game (whatever that may mean to you) is in danger of being soiled because I purchased nine dollars worth of pixels for a single player aspect of the game rather then grind for three months before I had a chance to play that aspect of the game.

 

If you disagree with what is happening, I can respect that, but you are not being totally honest as to your reasons, because an theory based on that thesis statement would be rather ridiculous.

I am not entirely sure that you understand my point, and I think you and I may have had a bit of a misunderstanding. I don't really care about the space parts, I don't like them in the market, but it is not a big deal to me.

What I am very concerned about, and what your comments made me think that you support, is end game PvE and/or PvP gear on the market. Schubert's response to the complaints are what have me worried. What he said sounds like they intend to make the game pay to win, as in selling end game gear, and I am absolutely against that.

That argument is not logically valid. The reason one "should" be in a guild is that they enjoy playing with the people in that guild because they enjoy playing in the same manner. Just like hanging out with a bunch of real life friends. We all enjoy doing the same thing and share the same interests. Not to say there are things that we wouldn't disagree upon, but overall we have the same outlook on life. Just like real life friends, if a guild shows that they don't show the same interests that I do, I go find another guild.

 

BJ

Not everyone has the same goals and outlook as you. It may not be an issue for a very casual guild, but I guarantee there is a significant portion of the population that it will absolutely happen to. Step outside your box and try to see things from other people's perspective.

Not everyone has the same goals and outlook as you. It may not be an issue for a very casual guild, but I guarantee there is a significant portion of the population that it will absolutely happen to. Step outside your box and try to see things from other people's perspective.

I do. As far as I know nothing prevents someone from finding new friends and a new guild. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your guarantee for it - as far as I know, crystal balls are a thing of fantasy. I base my views upon my world-life experience. Not once have I been unable to find friends or guilds (some extremely competitive) that did not share the same common philosophies. Perhaps you should try stepping out of your box and looking around for them.

BJ

I do. As far as I know nothing prevents someone from finding new friends and a new guild. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your guarantee for it - as far as I know, crystal balls are a thing of fantasy. I base my views upon my world-life experience. Not once have I been unable to find friends or guilds (some extremely competitive) that did not share the same common philosophies. Perhaps you should try stepping out of your box and looking around for them.

 

BJ

TLDR version= "No u"

How are you arriving at this conclusion?

 

According to Dulfy, I can earn 14 Black hole coms per week doing this. You can earn 159 per week grinding. It takes 495 coms to fully gear. That means that it will take me 35 weeks to fully gear doing these space missions, and it would take you just 3.1 weeks to do so.

 

I hardly see this as an issue that would require some 85 pages of hysteria of the magnitude I am seeing in this thread, and it is certainly not what one could call, "play to win".

Your point is flawed... at best.

First off... the premise clearly states "Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't."

Does the person who bought their Space 7 Upgrades get gear faster? Yes. You clearly pointed it out. Thus, the statement in quotes holds true. It doesn't mater if it helps in small way or a big way. P2W isn't defined by how much "winning" you get from paying. It's defined that there is any "winning" to be had from paying. And that holds true.

Once again, most people here aren't upset with the ship upgrades, in of themselves. Most People are upset because a line was clearly crossed that went from "no end game gear available on the Cartel Market" to "some end game gear available on the Cartel Market". Doesn't matter if it was one item, or a couple... the line was crossed. The fact that BW seems to think, "Hey, no big deal" worries many of us that they'll just keep pushing the line. Those people, like me, are just letting BW know, if they want to keep doing this they'll soon see that they're on their way to pushing the remaining bulk of their leftover subs out the door. It's not there yet, but they definitely opened the door.

Your point is flawed... at best.

 

First off... the premise clearly states "Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't."

 

Does the person who bought their Space 7 Upgrades get gear faster? Yes. You clearly pointed it out. Thus, the statement in quotes holds true. It doesn't mater if it helps in small way or a big way. P2W isn't defined by how much "winning" you get from paying. It's defined that there is any "winning" to be had from paying. And that holds true.

 

Once again, most people here aren't upset with the ship upgrades, in of themselves. Most People are upset because a line was clearly crossed that went from "no end game gear available on the Cartel Market" to "some end game gear available on the Cartel Market". Doesn't matter if it was one item, or a couple... the line was crossed. The fact that BW seems to think, "Hey, no big deal" worries many of us that they'll just keep pushing the line. Those people, like me, are just letting BW know, if they want to keep doing this they'll soon see that they're on their way to pushing the remaining bulk of their leftover subs out the door. It's not there yet, but they definitely opened the door.

IMO this is not P2W. I understand the fear of them crossing that line of P2W I fear they may one-day as well, however they have not yet done so. There are 2 main reasons why this is:

1. No, someone that has paid to get the grade-7 upgrades does not necessarily get end-game PvE gear faster than someone who did not. You can get the grade-7 upgrades without paying real money, and thus people using real money have no advantage over someone who has put time into the game to have enough credits to buy it all. It's on the GTN for around 100k a piece.

2. The previous end-game gear for ships was available EXCLUSIVELY through end-game crafting (except the extra modules like power-conversion) and the GTN. Now you can get it from the GTN, Cartel Market, or grinding through lower level space missions.

I'm against P2W model as much as anyone else. The line has not been crossed yet.

BW has managed to do one thing negative that effects game-play IMO. They have, at this point, nearly effectively made all crafting pointless, except Biochem for stims and Augements because you can't buy those on the Cartel Market yet.

IMO this is not P2W.

What is your definition of P2W then?

1. No, someone that has paid to get the grade-7 upgrades does not necessarily get end-game PvE gear faster than someone who did not. You can get the grade-7 upgrades without paying real money, and thus people using real money have no advantage over someone who has put time into the game to have enough credits to buy it all. It's on the GTN for around 100k a piece.

When someone opens up their wallet, whips out their credit card, and buys those items on the Market they circumvent any in-game effort. They are buying their way to end-game items w/out making any in-game effort. That is at the very heart of Pay To Win.

The key here is "circument(ing) any in-game effort". If someone uses in-game credits to buy the gear then they earned those credits in-game by making in-game effort. Sure, the amount of fleet comms and such to buy the gear is high compared to the effort you need to make to earn the credits needed to buy them, but that's a whole different problem... all of which still revolves around in-game effort. As stated above, Cartel Market completely goes around the whole issue by using real-life money.

2. The previous end-game gear for ships was available EXCLUSIVELY through end-game crafting (except the extra modules like power-conversion) and the GTN. Now you can get it from the GTN, Cartel Market, or grinding through lower level space missions.

I'm against P2W model as much as anyone else. The line has not been crossed yet.

My version is: You can buy end-game gear and/or end-game buffs with real-life money.

Does buying Ship Grade 7 parts with real life money satisfy the criteria? Yes. It doesn't matter how much end-game gear isn't available on the Cartel Market. The fact exists that there's some. Therefore, it's P2W.

Your point is flawed... at best.

 

First off... the premise clearly states "Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't."

 

Does the person who bought their Space 7 Upgrades get gear faster? Yes. You clearly pointed it out. Thus, the statement in quotes holds true. It doesn't mater if it helps in small way or a big way. P2W isn't defined by how much "winning" you get from paying. It's defined that there is any "winning" to be had from paying. And that holds true.

 

Once again, most people here aren't upset with the ship upgrades, in of themselves. Most People are upset because a line was clearly crossed that went from "no end game gear available on the Cartel Market" to "some end game gear available on the Cartel Market". Doesn't matter if it was one item, or a couple... the line was crossed. The fact that BW seems to think, "Hey, no big deal" worries many of us that they'll just keep pushing the line. Those people, like me, are just letting BW know, if they want to keep doing this they'll soon see that they're on their way to pushing the remaining bulk of their leftover subs out the door. It's not there yet, but they definitely opened the door.

You people certainly are stretching here to create drama over nothing. If racing to get gear is the only purpose for playing for you, then I can respect that. However, this hysteria because some minute perceived advantage over your gear race is, well its silly. Further, you are once again projecting that "gear race" mentality onto others. It is not why I play the game. I play to have fun and I do space missions for fun. Gear is secondary.

The entirety of the argument here, the drama being created is all over nothing more then silly envy. As I stated well back in this post, play as you wish. I have no issue with those that have all day to play and "beat" me to gear, LOL. However, this anger and resentment over others having a choice to play as they wish because of some perceived "advantage over me" is, once again, silly. LOL

Yes, space missions (which will soon have team heroics that bestow bh comms) are turning this game into pay to win. However, you should know most bioware players predicted this long ago. Look @ dragon age, for example. There is about 20-40 dollars of "rogue item pack" "warrior item pack" "xxx armor" "xxx staff"

This is what they do, and its dumb

IMO this is not P2W. I understand the fear of them crossing that line of P2W I fear they may one-day as well, however they have not yet done so. There are 2 main reasons why this is:

 

1. No, someone that has paid to get the grade-7 upgrades does not necessarily get end-game PvE gear faster than someone who did not. You can get the grade-7 upgrades without paying real money, and thus people using real money have no advantage over someone who has put time into the game to have enough credits to buy it all. It's on the GTN for around 100k a piece.

 

2. The previous end-game gear for ships was available EXCLUSIVELY through end-game crafting (except the extra modules like power-conversion) and the GTN. Now you can get it from the GTN, Cartel Market, or grinding through lower level space missions.

 

I'm against P2W model as much as anyone else. The line has not been crossed yet.

 

BW has managed to do one thing negative that effects game-play IMO. They have, at this point, nearly effectively made all crafting pointless, except Biochem for stims and Augements because you can't buy those on the Cartel Market yet.

A much more important point. Something worth an adult discussion.

Oh come on, you have been in gaming forums as long as I have. You should know by now that logic and reasoning have no business in a place called "General Forums."

BJ

I know. LOL We all slip sometimes though. ;p

You people certainly are stretching here to create drama over nothing. If racing to get gear is the only purpose for playing for you, then I can respect that. However, this hysteria because some minute perceived advantage over your gear race is, well its silly. Further, you are once again projecting that "gear race" mentality onto others. It is not why I play the game. I play to have fun and I do space missions for fun. Gear is secondary.

 

The entirety of the argument here, the drama being created is all over nothing more then silly envy. As I stated well back in this post, play as you wish. I have no issue with those that have all day to play and "beat" me to gear, LOL. However, this anger and resentment over others having a choice to play as they wish because of some perceived "advantage over me" is, once again, silly. LOL

It may be silly to you, but that doesn't validate your point whatsoever. The point is that many people feel it cheapens the game in some way when you allow users to buy end game gear. That's why people make rules such as "maximum bets" in poker and/or not allowing people to rebuy... if they didn't have this then the guy with tons of cash could keep throwing money around to be "big stack" and bully his way to victory.

I think people who are already quitting because of this is a bit extreme. But I will also not play in a game where end-game PvE Operation gear and/or end-game PvP gear can be bought with a credit card. "Progression" in this game is already a bit weak... but add in the ability to buy all end-game gear and "progression" means nothing.

fyi... statements like this:

You people certainly are stretching here to create drama over nothing. If racing to get gear is the only purpose for playing for you, then I can respect that. However, this hysteria because some minute perceived advantage over your gear race is, well its silly.

and

A much more important point. Something worth an adult discussion.

make you sound pretentious and insulting. If you want to really have an adult discussion, it's best to leave the immature, passive-aggressive remarks back at the kiddie table. Thanks.

What is your definition of P2W then?

I thought that was determined to be a moot point about 25 pages ago. Does it matter that their opinion of P2W is? It still won't change what you think P2W is, and yours probably won't change theirs. If you want to ask that question, then it is better to ask what you would feel or what you would do if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was more in line in what they think and not what your opinion of it was (and vice versa for them).

The purpose we should be here now to fulfill is not to determine what P2W means (since it means different things to different people), but how can we find the ground in the middle that will allow the CM to be a viable option to be valuable to the players who want to purchase items from there (and thus help fund the game in that manner), and those who do not want the game to devolve into a ZT Online like mess.

Thelrage and I attempted to do so back on pages 67 and 72.

BJ

I thought that was determined to be a moot point about 25 pages ago. Does it matter that their opinion of P2W is? It still won't change what you think P2W is, and yours probably won't change theirs. If you want to ask that question, then it is better to ask what you would feel or what you would do if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was more in line in what they think and not what your opinion of it was (and vice versa for them).

 

The purpose we should be here now to fulfill is not to determine what P2W means (since it means different things to different people), but how can we find the ground in the middle that will allow the CM to be a viable option to be valuable to the players who want to purchase items from there (and thus help fund the game in that manner), and those who do not want the game to devolve into a ZT Online like mess.

 

Thelrage and I attempted to do so back on pages 67 and 72.

 

BJ

Did you see what I was responding to where the guy said, "IMO that is not P2W". If he wants to give his opinion w/out really explaining his stance than I'm going to ask.

Also, to me... there really isn't middle group. You circumvent ways that take in-game effort to acquire end-game gear by using Real-Life cash... that's going to make me quit the game. Simple as that.

Did you see what I was responding to where the guy said, "IMO that is not P2W". If he wants to give his opinion w/out really explaining his stance than I'm going to ask.

 

Also, to me... there really isn't middle group. You circumvent ways that take in-game effort to acquire end-game gear by using Real-Life cash... that's going to make me quit the game. Simple as that.

Yes I did, and found that I had enough of a grasp of where on the P2W line Exhaltia sat as to see the question as unnecessary. Certainly it is your prerogative to feel the way you do, the same as a left-wing or right-wing extremist politico refuses to see the middle ground and that the middle ground is better for the population as a whole. Which again can lead to the question I asked - if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was in line with Exhaltia's definition, what would you do? Clearly, if SWTOR went that route you would quit SWTOR. But since in this hypothetical, this model would be accepted as not crossing the line in the Western Market, more games would implement this model and it would become the de facto standard. What would you do in that case?

BJ

Yes I did, and found that I had enough of a grasp of where on the P2W line Exhaltia sat as to see the question as unnecessary. Certainly it is your prerogative to feel the way you do, the same as a left-wing or right-wing extremist politico refuses to see the middle ground and that the middle ground is better for the population as a whole. Which again can lead to the question I asked - if the "official" and widely accepted definition of P2W was in line with Exhaltia's definition, what would you do? Clearly, if SWTOR went that route you would quit SWTOR. But since in this hypothetical, this model would be accepted as not crossing the line in the Western Market, more games would implement this model and it would become the de facto standard. What would you do in that case?

 

BJ

That's pretty obvious. I would stop playing MMO's. I don't play MMO's simply because they're MMO's. I play them because I have fun. If they turned into pure P2W then I would stop having fun... hence I'd stop playing them.

As for what Exhaltia said... none of it shows what he really thinks is P2W. Just showed that he didn't think ToR had turned in P2W in any sense of his definition. That's hardly understanding his definition. Regardless, not sure why you needed to put your foot down. Neither of us were getting belligerent in our discussion of this topic.

Also, I'm in agreement that BW will do what's best for it's company. In the end, that's making the most profit quarter after quarter. Doesn't mean I want to be a part of that game though... so please don't blow this out to some extremes in politics please. This is a game I pay to play, not the country I live in or where my children will live in.