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An in-depth look at: Malak


Aurbere

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Beni, that's a good point about accomplishments, and I agree with you. Except for one thing.

 

Exar Kun did leave a lasting impression on the galaxy by killing Odan-Urr and destroying the Great Library. Not as great as the Rule of Two (for obvious reasons) or creating a mighty, long-lived Sith Empire, but it was a major setback for the Jedi Order.

 

Of course it didn't last long as most of the knowledge within the Library was eventually 'rediscovered/reinvented.'

Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

 

In my books, he is a failure.

 

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

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Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

 

In my books, he is a failure.

 

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

 

Didnt Sidious create the book of sith? And I agree sort of with Bane in terms of accomplishments, he is the true Sithari and greatest of all Revanites.

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Yes I suppose so, the swathe of chaos and violence he carried through the universe had damaging effects on the Jedi Order and the Republic. But in the end that only puts him on par, in terms of accomplishment, with the likes of Sion, Nihilus, Desolous, Kaan and yes, Darth Malak. They all reaped destruction on the galaxy that the galaxy eventually recovered from, but in the end they were nothing.

 

In my books, he is a failure.

 

And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

 

I think Sidious only became that warped in his own power because he could never find a suitable apprentice to surpass him in power. And when he did they either could not be turned (Galen Marek), were broken beyond repair (Darth Vader), or could be turned and then redeemed (Luke Skywalker).

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And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

 

In death? Probably. In life? Heck no. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but they probably wouldn't have happened without Bane. Of course we shouldn't give Bane the credit of creating and fulfilling the Grand Plan, but he does get the credit for creating the oppurtunity (and that solidifies his legacy).

 

Darth Sidious left his mark on the galaxy, not only in his Galactic Empire, but also his teachings. Particularly in his trilogy of books titled 'The Dark Side Compendium'. In these books he discusses controlling anger to unleash the full power of the Dark Side, using the weak to gain power, as well as using Sith arts to create terrifying monsters. He also made other writings where he discusses choosing apprentices.

 

Not to mention being the gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. So he did leave teachings behind.

 

Edit: And before you ask, the threads on Sidious' teachings are in the works. :p

Edited by Aurbere
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I think Sidious only became that warped in his own power because he could never find a suitable apprentice to surpass him in power. And when he did they either could not be turned (Galen Marek), were broken beyond repair (Darth Vader), or could be turned and then redeemed (Luke Skywalker).
That is true, he was almost self defeating it that respect. Although I believe he should have dispatched Vader earlier on. And perhaps made a better attempt to turn Jedi e.g. don't blast them with lightning just because they say 'no' first time.

 

I mean consider the effort he put into converting Anakin, similar tactics could have been used with Skywalker and Marek.

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In death? Probably. In life? Heck no. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but they probably wouldn't have happened without Bane. Of course we shouldn't give Bane the credit of creating and fulfilling the Grand Plan, but he does get the credit for creating the oppurtunity (and that solidifies his legacy).

 

Darth Sidious left his mark on the galaxy, not only in his Galactic Empire, but also his teachings. Particularly in his trilogy of books titled 'The Dark Side Compendium'. In these books he discusses controlling anger to unleash the full power of the Dark Side, using the weak to gain power, as well as using Sith arts to create terrifying monsters. He also made other writings where he discusses choosing apprentices.

 

Not to mention being the gatekeeper of the Telos Holocron. So he did leave teachings behind.

 

Edit: And before you ask, the threads on Sidious' teachings are in the works. :p

I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however, train another worthy apprentice. If he had done so the Galactic Empire may never have fallen. Think about it, first of all Sidious would never have got thrown into the pit and if he did die with the Death Star's destruction, his apprentice (who would have likely been aboard the Executor - not going to the Death Star to sort out family issues) would have simply taken his place.

 

P.S. Funny that, I was just about to ask! :D

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I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however, train another worthy apprentice. If he had done so the Galactic Empire may never have fallen. Think about it, first of all Sidious would never have got thrown into the pit and if he did die with the Death Star's destruction, his apprentice (who would have likely been aboard the Executor - not going to the Death Star to sort out family issues) would have simply taken his place.

 

P.S. Funny that, I was just about to ask! :D

 

He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

 

Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the oppurtunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.
- The Creation of Monsters

 

Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted so long.
- the Telos Holocron

 

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.

Edited by Aurbere
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He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

 

- The Creation of Monsters

 

- the Telos Holocron

 

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.

 

He wanted Anakin to be that one that would succeed him, but he never reached his potential. Although this sheds a new light showing that after Anakin failed to be a successor to him, he deemed there would be no one else who could succeed him.

 

Galen only had the potential to be as powerful as Sidious, not stronger, and by the time he turned Luke as you said he had already put his plans for immortality into action.

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And this is going to be a big surprise, but I believe Sidious is also a failure too, at least in death. Much like Kun and others, he became too self-centered and attached to his power, so in the end when he was betrayed he left no legacy for the Sith - with his death the Sith Order was completely destroyed. I also believe Sidious never created a holocron, so all that he uncovered in the ways of the dark side were lost (correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

In my opinion, the Sith Lord who accomplished the most achieved the greatest success was Darth Bane. In life he achieved his goals of wiping out the old, weak order, and establishing a new and far more powerful one. He accumulated a extensive power base and well as uncovering many secrets of the dark side that laid the foundations for the future of his order. He trained a powerful apprentice, created a holocron and solidified a legacy for himself and for the Sith that would be felt for millennia to come.

 

Darth Bane was dedicated to destroying the Jedi Order. He had the discipline to put into action a plan he knew would not come to fruition for a long time, but did his successors have the same dedication? In many ways, Bane was unlike most Sith. He sacrificed his personal ambition for power in his lifetime, instead dedicating himself to strengthen future Sith. Most Sith are motivated primarily by a selfish desire for power in their own lifetime (or for immortal life, be it through holocrons, sith alchemy, etc.) and so they keep grasping for more until they overreach and get killed.

 

He probably should have found a new apprentice, but he felt that Vader had not lived out his usefullness. As noted:

 

As we see here, Sidious did not care if Vader could kill him. He had put forth plans to make himself immortal. Vader's betrayal was inconsequential in his mind. It was his intention to never really need an apprentice, just someone strong enough to carry out his wishes, which he notes in his records on finding apprentices.

 

This is evidence that Sidious had deviated far from Bane's vision of the Sith. Ultimately, the Rule of Two was probably very flawed, but it did allow the Sith to remain hidden. At the time of the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, it was clear that the Sith had been outfought by the Jedi, and were on the brink of extermination. To preserve the Sith, Bane essentially retreated and swore to remain in hiding and rather than fight the Jedi openly, as had been done in the past, to infiltrate and sabotage them through manipulation and treachery.

 

Unfortunately, the Rule of Two required every Sith Lord to practice a selfless devotion that I doubt many were capable of. It required them to pass on all their knowledge to their apprentice, and to challenge them to become stronger than the Master. This is far more similar to how Jedi are trained than Sith. The Jedi will patiently teach their apprentices everything they know, and it is every teacher's ambition to see their student go on to greater things.

 

The Sith are selfish, and focused on accumulating personal power. Without exception, almost every Sith Lord kept secrets from his apprentice, in order to give him an advantage. Since the way of the Sith is to betray those you can, and to kill whoever opposes you, most Masters are going to be hesitant to give away all the cards to their apprentices. By Sidious' time, it seems that the Sith have become preoccupied with seeking immortality, rather than strengthening their apprentice as much as possible.

 

They are still carrying out a plan to bring down the Jedi, but it is done through subterfuge and manipulation, rather than raw power. Sidious kills Plagueis in his sleep, as I'm sure many apprentices had before. Malak opportunistically fired on Revan's ship when he was distracted, Darth Vader threw Sidious down an exhaust shaft in a surprise betrayal, etc. The Sith Master is usually defeated not because he selflessly teaches his apprentice everything he knows and guides the apprentice to surpass him. Quite the opposite, they are usually scheming to stay in power and keep their apprentice just weak enough to not be a threat, and are unexpectedly betrayed and killed.

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I see, interesting. There is one very important thing he failed to do however,

 

Not just that, but he also failed to learn from other peoples mistakes...

He killed his master in his sleep when he was drunk. You think he'd learn and keep his guard up :cool:

*******

 

In all seriousness though, Sidious was far too overconfident, as Aubere said, he saw himself as Immortal, not needing anyone to Succeed him as he was never going to die...

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Not just that, but he also failed to learn from other peoples mistakes...

He killed his master in his sleep when he was drunk. You think he'd learn and keep his guard up :cool:

*******

 

In all seriousness though, Sidious was far too overconfident, as Aubere said, he saw himself as Immortal, not needing anyone to Succeed him as he was never going to die...

 

I think he had good reason to be overconfident. He was basically immortal and he was the culmination of Dark Side teachings. He had defeated the Jedi Order and established an Empire that could not survive without him, basically making himself the Empire. In his mind, he was invincible.

 

But he should have kept his guard up anyway. The downfall of most Sith it seems.

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Darth Bane was dedicated to destroying the Jedi Order. He had the discipline to put into action a plan he knew would not come to fruition for a long time, but did his successors have the same dedication? In many ways, Bane was unlike most Sith. He sacrificed his personal ambition for power in his lifetime, instead dedicating himself to strengthen future Sith. Most Sith are motivated primarily by a selfish desire for power in their own lifetime (or for immortal life, be it through holocrons, sith alchemy, etc.) and so they keep grasping for more until they overreach and get killed.
Lumiya said something about sacrifice in terms of Sith teachings, and to be Sith you must make great sacrifices. I stumbled upon it a while ago and found it really interesting - it put a whole different perspective on what it meant to be Sith - but for the life of me I can't find it again!

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Lumiya said something about sacrifice in terms of Sith teachings, and to be Sith you must make great sacrifices. I stumbled upon it a while ago and found it really interesting - it put a whole different perspective on what it meant to be Sith - but for the life of me I can't find it again!

 

I believe it was said in Sacrifice, but I could be wrong.

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That one Jedi being Revan, his former master whom had grown even stronger since there last confrontation.

 

And if finally accepting the truth is pathetic then so be it, but at least he was not in denial as Kun was that he could escape his inevitable destruction and that embracing the darkside was worth the rewards.

 

I thought the battle between Revan and Malak possessed immense gravitas and meaning and Malak's death was both satisfying yet saddening. I wouldn't have had it end any other way.

 

 

 

Yea, same for me. It was the ending I wanted. Revan would have been robbed of his victory if Malak had died while in denial. Better that he knew the truth.

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Indeed, what I find saps the satisfaction out of victory is when your opponent refuses to accept defeat - well said.

 

Indeed. Whenever I see a Sith refuse to accept defeat, it makes them pathetic. It's like 'Dude! You lost. Get over it.' :p This of course refers mostly to the lot of Sith I encounter on TOR or the KOTOR games (like Sion or Draggh).

Edited by Aurbere
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What did Kun achieve? Nada.

 

Return of the Sith through fallen Jedi, the establishment of the academy on Korriban, The reignition of the Sith Wars, the deaths of both Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr(the two most powerful Jedi of their whole lives), the fall of Jedi who all had extreme potential and would've been a far more solid foundation for the Order than those weaklings they called the Jedi Masters from the Mandalorian Wars to the Dark Wars, he also is the reason the Jedi became so strict and blinded by their own light that they failed to realise how corrupted they themselves had become due to the rise of the Sith that Kun's reign brought about.

 

The mass destruction of Republic space that took till after the Dark Wars to finally start healing, the beginning of the fall of that incarnation of the Jedi Order, making a prime target for the Sith Empire, the introduction(or perhaps reintroduction) of saberstaff combat to the Sith, the fall of the Sunrider and Qel-Droma families who were almost the Skywalkers of their day, the mass paranoia and the weakening of the Order as a whole.

 

Not to mention that without Exar Kun the idea of the Sith as anything more than the Sith Empire wouldn't have happened and it becoming a belief would not have come about either.

 

Also let's not forget that because of him the Terentateks and numerous other Sith spawn were let loose across the galaxy, reintroducing Sith sorcery and Sith alchemy to the galaxy before the return of the Sith Empire 340 years later.

 

He also planted the seeds of the Dark Side in numerous students of the Jedi Praxeum, of which nearly half fell to the Dark Side because of his taint on Yavin IV and his meddling as a spirit(this was the beginning of Jacen Solo's turn to the Dark Side and the rise of quite possibly the most second powerful Sith Lord ever, Darth Caedus.

 

Exar Kun arguably being the third strongest ever, introduced the Dark Side to (again, possibly) the second most powerful Sith Lord ever, which was the last ditch effort for the Rule of Two continuing.

 

I don't understand exactly how that's 'nada'.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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I don't understand exactly how that's 'nada'.
Firstly, let me define what I meant by 'achieve' - to accomplish one's goals. The goal of a Sith is twofold, to achieve the destruction of the Jedi, and to uphold and continue the Sith Order.

 

In this sense Kun achieved 'nada' because he failed to destroy the Jedi or play any intentional part in their future destruction, and he failed to maintain the Sith Order. You say his actions caused the 'return of the Sith', and yet with Kun's death the Sith Empire collapsed and the Brotherhood of Sith were destroyed. The Sith 'returned' for a full 4 years and did not return again for another 40 years, in no part due to Kun's intentional actions - I would not call that an achievement.

 

Killing Jedi, no matter how powerful, is no achievement either. Because the action failed to destroy the Jedi Order which had recovered by the time of the Mandalorian Wars. They were shaken, yes, but it was not Kun's intention to shake them, but destroy them.

 

His crusade, while dealing a great deal of damage on Republic space, failed - it failed to achieve what the intention of the war had been, to destroy the Republic, the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. It was therefore a failure, not a success and not an achievement.

 

The rest of your points are simply unintended consequences of Kun's rule, they were not the goals he sought to accomplish and did little to help the Sith as a whole - they are therefore not his achievements, they are his effects. Neither did he leave a lasting legacy, he corrupted Kyp Durron but that amounted to nothing. Durron did not become Sith, he was merely a dark side pawn Kun used to wreak purposeless havoc on the galaxy - and was ultimately defeated.

 

You have also made several incorrect points:

Not to mention that without Exar Kun the idea of the Sith as anything more than the Sith Empire wouldn't have happened and it becoming a belief would not have come about either.
If what your saying here is that Exar Kun was the first to have an Empire of only two Sith, a master and an apprentice, they you are partly mistaken. Firstly, it was not Kun, but the ancient Sith who bestowed the title of master and apprentice upon Kun and Ulic. And despite this they still treated one another as near equals. What's more, Kun personally trained multiple apprentices - an entire Brotherhood. So it was not much of a radical change, and one not implemented by Kun anyway - nor did he make any attempt to pass the knowledge on. It was not his achievement and a small one at best, the one we should attribute the Rule of Two to is Revan and Bane.

He also planted the seeds of the Dark Side in numerous students of the Jedi Praxeum, of which nearly half fell to the Dark Side because of his taint on Yavin IV and his meddling as a spirit (this was the beginning of Jacen Solo's turn to the Dark Side and the rise of quite possibly the most second powerful Sith Lord ever, Darth Caedus.
As far as I'm aware, Kun only corrupted two members of the Jedi Praxeum and merely fooled another into attacking Skywalker. Two is not half. Also, what part did he have to play in Jacen's fall to the dark side? My understanding was that he had a vision of the future which made him agree to become Lumiya's apprentice, it had nothing to do with Kun.

 

=================================

 

That is why Kun achieved 'nada' - because he failed to destroy, or play a intentional part in destroying. the Jedi Order. Nor did he succeed to uphold and continuing the Sith Order. He left no legacy, and with no legacy, when he finally died he was nothing.

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Firstly, let me define what I meant by 'achieve' - to accomplish one's goals. The goal of a Sith is twofold, to achieve the destruction of the Jedi, and to uphold and continue the Sith Order.

 

In this sense Kun achieved 'nada' because he failed to destroy the Jedi or play any intentional part in their future destruction, and he failed to maintain the Sith Order. You say his actions caused the 'return of the Sith', and yet with Kun's death the Sith Empire collapsed and the Brotherhood of Sith were destroyed. The Sith 'returned' for a full 4 years and did not return again for another 40 years, in no part due to Kun's intentional actions - I would not call that an achievement.

 

Killing Jedi, no matter how powerful, is no achievement either. Because the action failed to destroy the Jedi Order which had recovered by the time of the Mandalorian Wars. They were shaken, yes, but it was not Kun's intention to shake them, but destroy them.

 

His crusade, while dealing a great deal of damage on Republic space, failed - it failed to achieve what the intention of the war had been, to destroy the Republic, the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. It was therefore a failure, not a success and not an achievement.

 

The rest of your points are simply unintended consequences of Kun's rule, they were not the goals he sought to accomplish and did little to help the Sith as a whole - they are therefore not his achievements, they are his effects. Neither did he leave a lasting legacy, he corrupted Kyp Durron but that amounted to nothing. Durron did not become Sith, he was merely a dark side pawn Kun used to wreak purposeless havoc on the galaxy - and was ultimately defeated.

 

You have also made several incorrect points:

If what your saying here is that Exar Kun was the first to have an Empire of only two Sith, a master and an apprentice, they you are partly mistaken. Firstly, it was not Kun, but the ancient Sith who bestowed the title of master and apprentice upon Kun and Ulic. And despite this they still treated one another as near equals. What's more, Kun personally trained multiple apprentices - an entire Brotherhood. So it was not much of a radical change, and one not implemented by Kun anyway - nor did he make any attempt to pass the knowledge on. It was not his achievement and a small one at best, the one we should attribute the Rule of Two to is Revan and Bane.

As far as I'm aware, Kun only corrupted two members of the Jedi Praxeum and merely fooled another into attacking Skywalker. Two is not half. Also, what part did he have to play in Jacen's fall to the dark side? My understanding was that he had a vision of the future which made him agree to become Lumiya's apprentice, it had nothing to do with Kun.

 

=================================

 

That is why Kun achieved 'nada' - because he failed to destroy, or play a intentional part in destroying. the Jedi Order. Nor did he succeed to uphold and continuing the Sith Order. He left no legacy, and with no legacy, when he finally died he was nothing.

 

1.Kun's fall inspired the falls of every Jedi after him.

2.Kun is the first not associated with the Old Sith Empire to become a Sith Lord, he was crowned by Marka Ragnos' spirit as his successor.

3.His presence on Yavin IV left a taint that resounded in the Jedi Praxeum, something Luke left there purposefully so Jedi would be constantly tested by the Dark Side, as he was, Kun's spirit left an actual mark on every single student there, Luke says that's where he thinks Jacen's massive ego and lack of emotional control comes from.

4.He was the first Sith Lord to appear in the galaxy since the Hyperspace War, his lasting legacy was a very weak Jedi Order, a very weak Galactic Republic and the destruction of some of the most integral Jedi in the whole order.

5.There are a long line of Sith and Jedi who credit Kun with every war fought in the Old Sith Wars(Though these quotes were created before the whole TOR thing came about.).

6.By your logic, only around twenty Sith Lords ever did anything of significance.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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  1. Where is your evidence of this? Revan was not inspired by Kun to fall to the darkside. That statement doesn't even make sense, you can't 'inspire' some one to fall.
     
     
  2. Key name there being Marka Ragnos, like I said this was not his doing but the doing of the ancient Sith before him. And there actions were wasted as the Sith were destroyed 4 years later.
     
     
  3. OK, I see your point. But this is an effect, not an achievement. Nor was it by any means the most primary factor for the fall of Jacen Solo, nor does it account for Jacen's power in the Force. Nor did Jacen achieve a great deal either.
     
     
  4. Being a novelty is not an achievement. His lasting legacy was not a weak Republic and Jedi Order, if they were weak how did they win the Mandalorian Wars? It was Revan who weakened the Republic and the Jedi Order. And again, that was not an achievement as it did not benefit the Sith in any way.
     
     
  5. Could you provide some quotes? Or just explain to me what Kun had to do with Revan's and Kreia's fall to the dark side.
     
     
  6. Correction, 28. Excluding Sith underlings. Oh and further correction, achieved something, not did something of significance. Many Sith did things of significance but they did not all do they successfully. Failures include: Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Malak, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Skere Kaan.
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  1. Where is your evidence of this? Revan was not inspired by Kun to fall to the darkside. That statement doesn't even make sense, you can't 'inspire' some one to fall.
     
    "Kun's actions would resound through numerous Jedi after him, inspiring doubt of the powers that the Jedi had and helped grow a strong faith in the Dark Side of the Force as it shifted in the favour of the Jedi's fallen brethren." - Jedi Path.
     
    "The Exar Kun War shook the Order to it's core, doubt and the great weakening of the Jedi through his sole hand had made their powers moot in the view point of almost the whole galaxy. Few believed in the Order's ability to fight the Dark Side or protect it's Republic after being embarrassed by the Dark Lord's efforts....." - The Dark Side sourcebook.
     
    "The Dark Lords Kun and Qel-Droma were the cause of many Jedi having little faith in the Light Side and the Masters who preached it's code, Exar Kun had slain the very creator of the vaunted code, not only that, but he went on to destroy Ossus and slaughter the Senate in the very capitol of the Republic, where the Jedi were helpless, these actions brewed the belief in the Darker views on the Force. Revan and Alek in particular were fascinated with the story of how one lowly Padawan broke free of his chains and went on to become the most frighteningly powerful being the galaxy had seen in millennia." - the KotOR Campaign Guide.
     
    Darth Sion was actually created because of Exar Kun's direct influence.
     
  2. Key name there being Marka Ragnos, like I said this was not his doing but the doing of the ancient Sith before him. And there actions were wasted as the Sith were destroyed 4 years later.
     
    Exar Kun declared himself Lord of the Sith before his engagement with Qel-Droma and his crowning as Dark Lord by Sith spirits.
     
    Also, the Sith weren't destroyed at all, Sion remained, the Sith remained on Korriban, only the top dog's of Kun Sith Empire were killed or incapacitated, the Sith as a whole weren't destroyed at all.
     
  3. OK, I see your point. But this is an effect, not an achievement. Nor was it by any means the most primary factor for the fall of Jacen Solo, nor does it account for Jacen's power in the Force. Nor did Jacen achieve a great deal either.
     
    His plan in the first place was to corrupt the most promising students, kill Luke and rebuild his own body, Also Darth Caedus achieved a great deal, least of which was the Jedi Order being all but split from the New Republic and putting in place a government through his own death that Krayt and his One Sith took full advantage of years later by taking over.
     
  4. Being a novelty is not an achievement. His lasting legacy was not a weak Republic and Jedi Order, if they were weak how did they win the Mandalorian Wars? It was Revan who weakened the Republic and the Jedi Order. And again, that was not an achievement as it did not benefit the Sith in any way.
     
    The Republic's infrastructure was grievously damaged and the Jedi Order lost it's best people and family lines, after the likes of the Qel-Dromas, Sunriders and the best Masters besides those like Vandar, what powerful Jedi were left? Revan, Alek and the Exile? fantastic list, two went on to do as much damage as they fixed and the other one wasn't even recognised as a Jedi by the Order.
     
    Also, it provided an excellent target and stopped the advancement of them both because they spent so damn long rebuilding their space which was wrecked after the Dark Wars ended.
     
  5. Could you provide some quotes? Or just explain to me what Kun had to do with Revan's and Kreia's fall to the dark side.
     
    I provided quotes earlier. The Sith's return through Kun inspired the lack of faith and the weak outlook that everyone, including their own students had regarding the Order, it also completely inspired Revan and Alek to go and wage the war with the Mandalorians, whom themselves were manipulated into the war by the other Dark Lord in the galaxy.
     
  6. Correction, 28. Excluding Sith underlings. Oh and further correction, achieved something, not did something of significance. Many Sith did things of significance but they did not all do they successfully. Failures include: Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Malak, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Skere Kaan.

 

I think your idea of achievement and my own vary greatly.

 

Anyway, this thread is about Malak, not Exar Kun.

Edited by LadyKulvax
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Thank you for supplying some evidence to support your argument, and you make a valid point. However we must make the distinction between 'achievement' and 'effect'. Achievement is the act of accomplishing one's goals, effects are simply the reverberations caused by those actions. Kun manly produced effects and little achievemwnt, he did not destroy the Republic and the Jedi as he had hoped and he did not intentionally leave a lasting legacy for the Sith e.g. do what Nadd and Sadow did, train a successor in 'spirit' form. He could have done this with the Jedi of Luke's Praxeum but instead his lust for personal power and self centered egotism drove him to simply use the Jedi as tools for his own return and revenge against the galaxy. If Kun had instead trained Kyp as the next Sith Lord, he may have had more success.

 

However, as you have proved, Kun did have positive effects on the Sith Order as a whole. By weakening the Jedi's morale he facilitated the rise of the Sith decades later. However these were unintended effects, and so cannot be perceived as achievements. So while I still believe Kun failed to achieve anything, I would agree that he had resounding positive effects for the Sith Order, albeit unintended. If he hadn't been so arrogant though he could have been so much more.

 

But yes, this thread is about Malak. However I think a comparison can be made, Malak's arrogance and lust of personal power was the reason he betrayed Revan, and conducted an ineffective campaign against the Republic and the Jedi. Basically what we can learn from this is self centered arrogance does not make for a good Sith. A desire for power of course is important, but a Sith must be able to see the 'greater power' - power for the Sith Order, not just themselves. Bane saw this, and that's why Bane was the most successful of them all.

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*Insert excellent point here*

 

Whilst I fully understand your reasoning, I think you may be flawed on one point, only the Order of the Sith Lords saw a 'Grand Plan' or great vision for the Sith and whilst they were most certainly the best of the lot, I don't think by that much, by my estimation, the Sith Triumvirate and Darth Revan's Sith Empire both came just as close to eradicating the Jedi and enforcing the domination of the Dark Side as the Banite Sith did, were they as powerful? yes and no.

 

My point is that: 'Evil is a point of view' and so is 'achievement' as the Sith is concerned. :jawa_evil:

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