Ifrica Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Er no, DS they messed up on, because it was tuned around Rf. Alone in the Dark? A Tribute to Mad Skill? Sinestra? Even Archimonde took ages to get down. And then there was raids with gates that they released as staggered content so it wasn't steamrolled through too quickly, like ICC and Sunwell. So not it was VERY rarely week + 1 day.. in wrath it was always in second week, same in cata, only in DS it took longer cuz of the problems with Spine, only those koreans did it fast due to an 'exploit' (well that's debatable) and i was talking about normal bosskills, not hardcore achievements as alone in the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SentinelDranoel Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 How do I put this nicely. I can't. The average raider will probably take 2 months to get this clear. Ie the majority of subs,The average player will probably never clear it on HM till it A) gets nerfed B) is irrelevant content. You churning through content a lot faster than bioware can create it is your problem. Yes it might not be super dooper ragnaros/Sinestra/HM LK hard, but it's not that sorta game. Agree except that as a average player, I can care less about operations. We could use more flashpoints, story based content and world events. You do not really need a team of jedi fighting giant monsters, it is not appealing. You beat the op and get all the gear and now you are bored and locked out. People want story stuff with companions, legacy features, chat bubbles, special events, stuff they can do everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanisTheSlayer Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Agree except that as a average player, I can care less about operations. We could use more flashpoints, story based content and world events. You do not really need a team of jedi fighting giant monsters, it is not appealing. You beat the op and get all the gear and now you are bored and locked out. People want story stuff with companions, legacy features, chat bubbles, special events, stuff they can do everyday. You're the first person I've ever seen desire this. I'm pretty sure you're the minority here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnitudeZero Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) in wrath it was always in second week, same in cata, only in DS it took longer cuz of the problems with Spine, only those koreans did it fast due to an 'exploit' (well that's debatable) and i was talking about normal bosskills, not hardcore achievements as alone in the dark Well I'm not even talking normal bosskills, normal bosskills on the first week is fine, but Nightmare should never be that way. And I think more to the point is that in WoW I was always a middle of the road raider, good enough to do the highest content just was never in a hardcore guild. But we cleared KP NM the first week it was released in a guild of strangers who only met 4 weeks prior on SW. That just shouldn't happen. And it's like pre-patch 1.1 I thought the raiding was a lot better tuned, although ridiculously buggy. Soa HM was and still is the hardest fight I've ever done in this game. Between Lightning Balls not having people's names attached to them, so you had to figure out at least who one of the balls belonged to (The other could just be taunted and taken by the tank), and managing DPS - couldn't take Soa to 3rd phase too quickly else someone would be put into a mind trap as you did and either couldn't be released or would just die from falling through the centre if released after platforms had come. Those two aspects alone gave it a greater degree of difficulty, but then coupled with the bugs of platforms not spawning, lightning balls being invisible etc made it damn near impossible - spent over 30 hours solid wiping on Soa HM, I have no idea how Irae AoD got it down on NM pre patch. Yeah the other 5 bosses that were available at the time were pretty faceroll (except bonethrasher NM), but it was still the most enjoyable and difficult kill I have encountered in this game. The day after we did Soa HM, patch 1.1 came and we one shot NM Soa, and most of KP NM using only one tank, it was only Jarg and Sorna and Fabricator that gave us any trouble with only having one tank, but after a few hours of wiping they were easily overcome. How is it ok to go from 30 hours of wiping on HM, to then one shot NM, although granted we did have awesome experience with the tactics by that point. Edited September 24, 2012 by MagnitudeZero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Ever consider not reading strat guides and figuring it out for yourselves? I don't like this argument. That's like people talking about GoW 3 and saying how they did it with all no level up on weapons. That's making the game harder than it's optimal fashion. BW and every other MMO company knows what tools are out there to make content easier and they're supposed to make encounters and challenges with those in mind. If not, then why not try to do the encounters in non-augmented Rakata gear? Why not disallow and VOIP system? How about getting rid of your fancy keyboard and mouse and buying your basic run-of-the-mill ones so that you can handicap yourself to make the content more challenging. You shouldn't have to handicap yourself to make content challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) I don't like this argument. That's like people talking about GoW 3 and saying how they did it with all no level up on weapons. That's making the game harder than it's optimal fashion. BW and every other MMO company knows what tools are out there to make content easier and they're supposed to make encounters and challenges with those in mind. If not, then why not try to do the encounters in non-augmented Rakata gear? Why not disallow and VOIP system? How about getting rid of your fancy keyboard and mouse and buying your basic run-of-the-mill ones so that you can handicap yourself to make the content more challenging. You shouldn't have to handicap yourself to make content challenging. The only challenge in end-game content is mechanics. Gear is handed out like candy at Halloween, and it's not hard to master your profession. Going into a new operation fresh and figuring the fight out from scratch isn't some artificial handicap like "disallow voice chat" Edited September 24, 2012 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 The only challenge in end game content is mechanics. Gear is handled out like candy, and it's not hard to master your profession. Going into a new operation fresh and figuring the fight out from scratch isn't some artificial handicap like "disallow voice chat" Ummm, how is not reading a strat online that's free and available not artificially giving yourself a handicap? You're purposely deciding not to make use of a great tool in helping you down content. That's exactly like not using VOIP. VOIP gives you the ability to communicate a whole lot quicker to coordinate. Ever try an interrupt rotation without in-game macros (which you can't do) or VOIP? Online strats and VOIP software are both tools outside the realm of the game that many guilds use to better prepare themselves for new content. Even if online guides didn't exist, doesn't change the fact that top-tier guilds took weeks to months to kill final bosses in raids and now they're clearing it in a matter of hours or days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Ummm, how is not reading a strat online that's free and available not artificially giving yourself a handicap? You're purposely deciding not to make use of a great tool in helping you down content. That's exactly like not using VOIP. VOIP gives you the ability to communicate a whole lot quicker to coordinate. Ever try an interrupt rotation without in-game macros (which you can't do) or VOIP? Online strats and VOIP software are both tools outside the realm of the game that many guilds use to better prepare themselves for new content. Even if online guides didn't exist, doesn't change the fact that top-tier guilds took weeks to months to kill final bosses in raids and now they're clearing it in a matter of hours or days. Sure, you could say that not reading a strat is a handicap. But to compare it to "not using voice chat" is silly. It's not remotely the same class of thing. Here are the reasons a group could fail at a raid: 1. Lack of gear 2. Lack of skill at one's own class 3. Inability to coordinate with others in the group 4. Not knowing the fight mechanics Now it's a fair bet that if you have HM EC on farm, everyone in your group has 1-3 above in the bag. Don't you think it would be more fun to try Terror from Beyond without knowing what to expect? Let me give you a comparison. I'm a fan of Tower Defense strategy games you can play on a phone. Any popular variation of that genre is likely to have a website with a forum that posts exact specific strategies to beat every single level in the game. Sure, you can read those strats and follow each one step-by-step and beat the game in one sitting. Or you could fiddle with it, try different strats, maybe read some forum posts about generic strategies (unit x is weak against enemy y) and figure it out for yourself. Would you be more proud to have a) completed TfB figuring out your own strat? Or b) to be the first on your server to mimic someone else's strat already tried on the PTS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonbgone Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) I was on the PTS with a very fine group of people. We were able to get the first four bosses down in the first week. We only raided a few days and for about 4 hours a session. This, although it was fun playing with these guys and putting our heads together to figure it out, is not what I want. This all dates back to my days playing WoW. I bought the game a few months after it released and fell in love. I was 12, so I didn't fully grasp how everything worked, the way the game used mathematics to calculate damage, health, attacks, all the mechanics which I understand now. Anyway, when I played WoW I got into raiding and wasn't ever able to get to the top. I started out not knowing much and by the time I learned the ins and outs of the game I was unable to even be considered on guild applications. When I stumbled upon swtor.com two years before the game's release date I made it my personal mission and dream to make this game MY game. I knew what I wanted to be and I checked the site religiously every week for updates. I spent hours writing up my guild's rules and how we would operate. I made the site, did all the guild prep stuff. it was awesome. Even started contributing hours of my time to sithwarrior.com and became a moderator. I founded it with three irl friends, all of whom I'm still friends with today. We got to 50 before the game officially released worked our way up to doing operations with 4 other members. Got SM EV and KP down, then to HM, then to NiM. Server first republic NiM SoA kill (or at least the only republic guild left on our server) My friends decided to quit. The raids were too buggy for them and was wasting there time, they also didn't like being rolled on Ilum. Speaking of which, I bought a secondary ventrilo to set up Ilum nights during 1.2, where we'd be able to give the imperials a run for their money. I'd advertise on the fleet to get people together playing the game instead of complaining that the game's unbalanced. Been going, got server first republic side HM Kephess, but it's been tough. Haven't been able to get 16 people or 16 mans and have been dreaming about 16 content. Down Kephess and farm EC until mains, 1st alts, and 2nd alts are BiS. Now what? Sit on our thumbs for 1.4. Problem is, my guild members don't want to pay for a game just to do nothing after "competition season". Guild's died out a bit. Seems after each time we clear something and farm our toons I have to do some mass recruiting to keep my guild alive. This might just be me, but it's getting to be too much. When TFB comes out I'm going to push my members to get the first four bosses on HM down on the first day. Then we'll work on the last one and have the HM on farm in a few weeks. Then what? Rinse and repeat? I'm not up for just waiting five months between content. I've spent 2 years prepping for this game and another year playing it. I'm going to buy Panda, play it with the more intense raider I've met in swtor, hate it, and be bored again. I'll keep me sub here, I'm no idiot, they need money to make this better. All I want you to get from this post is that I've had a dream as a boy to be the best raider in a game. Starwars was my dream and it's fading away because of lack of content. I'm still here, I'm still dreaming, but that little boy is dying. Edited September 26, 2012 by Dragonbgone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentKitty Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 You're the first person I've ever seen desire this. I'm pretty sure you're the minority here. If you come by the Story and Lore-part of the forum you will find that there are quite a few of us that want more story content and conversations with our companions. And world events. However, since joining a guild and discovering the fun in getting together with a big group of nice people in order to play together I've come to appreciate new Ops as well. In short, I pretty much want everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Let me give you a comparison. I'm a fan of Tower Defense strategy games you can play on a phone. Any popular variation of that genre is likely to have a website with a forum that posts exact specific strategies to beat every single level in the game. Sure, you can read those strats and follow each one step-by-step and beat the game in one sitting. Or you could fiddle with it, try different strats, maybe read some forum posts about generic strategies (unit x is weak against enemy y) and figure it out for yourself. Would you be more proud to have a) completed TfB figuring out your own strat? Or b) to be the first on your server to mimic someone else's strat already tried on the PTS? I like those Tower defense games too. But I'm alone. I screw up, it's my time and annoyance. I depend only on me to get it right. Those guildes for those kind of games are pretty much a mathematical solution to a puzzle. Put this here, then other thing there, etc, etc, and that's about it. On the other hand if "mimics" for EC HM, for example, were just that, "mimics", every guild should have had that instance on farm after week 2 of its realese. That's not true. On the fleet, you still see plenty of guilds advertising their progress is 3/4 EC HM. I see the guides for operations as a tool. Nothing more. You're the one who has to be able to properly use it. Maybe improve it with your contributions. I work in system development, and "Let's not reinvent the wheel" is dogma. That's how I see these kind of guides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Would you be more proud to have a) completed TfB figuring out your own strat? Or b) to be the first on your server to mimic someone else's strat already tried on the PTS? Yes, I've heard before that the true joy is in the doing, not the actual obtaining. But what you're asking for is subjective. What if I like the option to improve upon an existing strat? I don't want to reinvent the wheel, why would I? It's already invented. I just want to make it better. I just wish there was some sort of superficial way of straggering progression by forcing end-bosses to require gear obtained from earlier bosses, but, at the same time, having enough bosses where you don't notice that you hit a wall. But that would take double the bosses to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Yes, I've heard before that the true joy is in the doing, not the actual obtaining. But what you're asking for is subjective. What if I like the option to improve upon an existing strat? I don't want to reinvent the wheel, why would I? It's already invented. I just want to make it better. I just wish there was some sort of superficial way of straggering progression by forcing end-bosses to require gear obtained from earlier bosses, but, at the same time, having enough bosses where you don't notice that you hit a wall. But that would take double the bosses to do. Oh, I have no disagreement or anything. This thread started with a discussion of how easy the end-game content is. One solution for this is to figure the strats out yourself starting from scratch. My only objection is describing that as an "artificial handicap" If content is so easy, then it doesn't really require the very best top raiders to figure out the strats for everyone else to follow, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemmar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Er no, DS they messed up on, because it was tuned around Rf. Alone in the Dark? A Tribute to Mad Skill? Sinestra? Even Archimonde took ages to get down. And then there was raids with gates that they released as staggered content so it wasn't steamrolled through too quickly, like ICC and Sunwell. So not it was VERY rarely week + 1 day.. Erm... so you would be happy if they gated the bosses for you? Its pretty cool to compare this to WoW vanilla and TBC, but those days are long gone. Todays blizzard offers a different deal, and thats why you're here. It all depends on how often we will get new operations. I dont think we will get them faster than one every three-four months, but if we do, then i will be happy. If not, then an increase in dificulty is in order... but thats what the nightmare modes were from my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typeslice Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I like those Tower defense games too. But I'm alone. I screw up, it's my time and annoyance. I depend only on me to get it right. Those guildes for those kind of games are pretty much a mathematical solution to a puzzle. Put this here, then other thing there, etc, etc, and that's about it. On the other hand if "mimics" for EC HM, for example, were just that, "mimics", every guild should have had that instance on farm after week 2 of its realese. That's not true. On the fleet, you still see plenty of guilds advertising their progress is 3/4 EC HM. I see the guides for operations as a tool. Nothing more. You're the one who has to be able to properly use it. Maybe improve it with your contributions. I work in system development, and "Let's not reinvent the wheel" is dogma. That's how I see these kind of guides. You used strategy guides as a kid too, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetroll Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Ever consider not reading strat guides and figuring it out for yourselves? This allways been my wtg. But even doing so... We started our raid pretty late, the roster was not the roster I wished for but it was still a very decent one. We never though it would release yesterday so we kinda fail to start correctly.... ANYWAY 1st boss took us about an hour. We left at midnight (GMT+1) with the last of the 3 guards down at 25%... this 2nd boss would have been killed if we were not a bunch of old granpas that can't stay awake after midnight 3 hours of raiding with editing our own strats = almost 2 boss down in the hardest mod (16HM) ... yes I consider it kind of easy for now... Really hoping TFB16HM is some sport cuz if not... it's gonna be very disapointing. Edited September 27, 2012 by zetroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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