For the record, I haven't been able to test these things out because there aren't any GSF games going on the PTR.

 

So I'll just have to look at it on paper.. which is undoubtedly how most of us will get to see them until they go live and actually get tested.

 

 

PRIMARY WEAPONS

Nothing spectacular here, all standards. Rapid-fire Laser Cannons, Light Laser Cannons, and Laser Cannons.

 

SECONDARY WEAPONS

 

This is where these scouts have their true potential.

 

Ion Missles - Oh yeah! Very nice.

 

EMP Missles - VERY VERY NICE! Finally a Scout with proper Anti-Bomber tools!

 

Thermite Torpedoes - Meh...

 

ENGINES

 

This is where things start to become really lackluster.

 

Power Dive - "I love to crash into stuff or go nowhere fast!"

 

Interdiction Drive - Errr.... right. Why exactly? Doesn't break missile locks or evades locked on missiles. Bombers already don't do this, why would anyone think a Scout would want to?

 

Snap Turn - I guess this is ok... I guess.... turn into your attackers and afterburn the hell out of there until you're out of engine power or reach the safety of a nice big rock or satellite to fly around until you get dizzy. Because... throwing up is so much fun!

 

Koiogran Turn - The favorite of beginner Strike Pilots who don't yet know that Barrel Roll is their best chance of getting to the other side of the map sometime this week, if perhaps not today. It has also been the death of many unfortunate pilots who've tried to evade a missile lock while flying under a satellite.

 

Systems

 

And now, by sacrificing everything a scout is suppose to do well, we get to what this particular scout is suppose to be doing well. Support...

 

"Ladies and gentlemen, we have thrown out the tried and true systems such as Booster Recharge, EMP Field, and Blaster Overcharge. We left in Targeting Telemetry though just to see who's going to try and build this thing for actual combat instead of keeping it as a nice spectator seat!"

 

Combat Command - Increases the weapon power and accuracy of everyone on your team who's fortunate enough to stay inside of 5000 meters of you by 10% for 20 seconds! Also, by the time they realize the real threat is 15000 meters away and they all barrel roll away from you to go engage that threat, they'll leave you behind to die in seconds unless you can find cover quickly enough! Because.. we all know effective space fighter combat should be a game of hide and seek.

 

Tensor Field - Because keeping up with your team mates and enemies has been made difficult enough for you, here you can ensure that your enemies will want to boost as far away from you as possible while a Gunship picks you off... what was this thing suppose to do again?

 

Sensor Beacon - Because drones and mines last so long against intelligent opposition, let's just give them one more nice stationary thing to fire AoE Ion Rail Guns at.

 

Targeting telemetry - YAY! Something not useless on a useless scout!

 

Shields

 

Shield Projector - "Hmm... something to make me useful to my team while also making me missile fodder..."

 

Distortion Field - Well, at least they don't totally hate me.

 

Repair Drone - See Shield Projector. Also see Sensor Beacon.

 

Sensors

All standard, nothing remarkable.

 

Reactor

Standard set of choices...

 

Thrusters

We had to take these out to make room for... what exactly?

 

Armor

Standard set of choices for a scout.

 

Capacitor

Standard choices.

 

 

 

So the Tier 3 Scout is a support fighter that will have a very hard time actually lending any support because it'll just be a flying bullseye. No thrusters for faster power regeneration or more endurance for getting out of trouble. No booster recharge to save you when you get hit by the Ion Rail Guns... no barrel roll to actually get out of the Gunship's line of fire in any sort of timely manner.

 

So what's this thing suppose to be good for? Raising the enemy team's kill count? I don't see this thing being deadly even in the hands of the top elite of pilots. It's certainly not for the beginners, or intermediates, or... seriously, who's this thing for?

Edited March 6, 2014 by The_Raven_Lord

I can see making the strike into a tank for sat guarding, but the bomber simply does it better. May just go the way of the Comet Breaker.

I haven't spoken about the Strike fighter because, I don't have nearly enough hours in one to really understand the wants and needs of a Strike Fighter pilot.

 

Now I suppose I should describe what I think the T3 Scout should actually be, instead of whatever it's trying to be.

 

Honestly, I say forget the whole concept of a "Support Fighter" and just have this third tier of Scout be like the others with a different configuration for combat.

 

Drop the support fields and give it booster recharge and blaster over charge as options. No need for EMP because it's packing the EMP missiles. Just, drop Thermite Torpedoes and give it Cluster missiles instead.

 

On the matter of Engines, just put Barrel Roll and Retro thrusters into the mix. Nobody wants or likes Power Dive, and nobody in his right mind will use Interdiction Drive.

 

For the shield options.... whatever. Everyone's going to use Distortion Field regardless, some people like Quick Charge Shields and they have their merits, but you can leave the other two options because I suppose it'll fill a nice little niche, and some really good players can evade missiles with just engines and an obstacle course. (I'm not one of them btw.)

 

Thrusters... for the love of all that's good and holy, give it thrusters!

 

Something between a Blackbolt and Sting, able to play like either, with different offensive options provided by the choices of missiles will make this perfect! It isn't a Sting because it doesn't have the Burst Cannons or Quad Laser, but it isn't a Blackbolt because it's packing some seriously versatile Missile Power.

 

These options I've laid out has the tools to set up for dog fighting(Cluster Missiles), dislodging bombers(EMP Missiles), and hampering gunships(Ion Missiles).

 

It'll fit right in with the role a Scout was intended for. Not, whatever this thing was trying to be but will fail horribly at like the Dustmaker/Comet Breaker like the poster above me pointed out.

 

Anyway...

 

If you want a sense for how this scout will play as it currently is, join a regular pug game.

 

Fly a Blackbolt with Sensor Beacon or Targeting Telemetry.

 

Distortion Field is OK, but if you want a sense of what it will be like without it, don't use it.

 

Mount either Power Dive, Koiogran Turn, or Snap Turn.

 

Mount Turing Thrusters without any upgrades to it if you can. I know, you might think "But Tensor Field!" and I say BUT NOTHING! You want to get a sense of what it'll be like with no thrusters.

 

Stick with the "pack" of scouts and Strike Fighters in the melee as if you're trying to give them the buffs.

 

Try not to die for the whole game while still contributing some damage and kills.

 

That's what it will be like for a Bloodmark.

Edited March 5, 2014 by The_Raven_Lord

If you are going to release a new 'class' in any game, you need it to be unique. You cannot simply trundle out a beige version of existing classes and expect it to fly.

 

They needed a unique style class, I think they were going for the archetypal 'Bard' style class here. As much as it can be achieved in GSF anyway.

 

Am I impressed? No

 

Will I play one? No

 

But I really do not think that they could, or should have just released a mashup of the Sting/Blackbolt with a new skin. Some people might play this and like it. Additionally, if they are going for the whole 'Bard' thing, then at least it gives them an avenue to improve it.

 

- Wider range on debuffs/buffs

- Drones that have mutliple or rotational debuffs/buffs

- Powerful targeted debuffs/buffs within the ship.

Etc.

If you are going to release a new 'class' in any game, you need it to be unique. You cannot simply trundle out a beige version of existing classes and expect it to fly.

 

Errr... Scouts kind of are a class of ship.

 

Bombers

Gunships

Scouts

Strike Fighters

 

Those are ship classes. Each one has a unique role already. If they added these in as a "Support" class, it'd make sense. Still be really bad, but make sense.

 

Right now, you have two kinds of Scots

 

Blackbolt / Novadive - I guess 'jack of all trades'

 

Sting / Flashfire - The best Close quarters combat dog fighter.

 

And now we introduce...

 

Bloodmark / Spearpoint - All the weaknesses of a Scout, and none of the strengths. Tries to be a mid-range combat specialist but falls short on actual combat abilities. Provides buffs to everyone in close range but can never show itself in the open for fear of being picked off by an Ion Rail Gun.

I concur with all the OP's points. Though I suspect the command support abilities only require allies to be close at the time of casting, it is still going to be very hard to use, especially in Deathmatch where people are not normally clustered.

The offense command ability doesn't give anything amazing (everyone is already stacked for accuracy, and evasion is no longer the boogie man it once was).

 

 

Tensor field is useful at exactly one moment: the start of a Domination match, when you can hit all your team with it and then watch them zoom away from you. Any other time, there is no natural intersection of a group of allies being clustered and needing to get somewhere slightly faster. I could see it being used to mount a quick counter attack on an enemy sat, but that would require VOIP to time in an advantageous way.

 

So maybe there is a use in Domination, but I see no point in flying this in Deathmatch. It lacks the offensive and defensive power of a Sting, and it lacks the mobility that lets a Blackbolt do effective hit-and-fade.

 

I fear this fighter is going to cause more Imperial loses though, because less discerning pilots will use the Bloodmark simply because it is the coolest and most iconic looking Imperial ship. The Republic got lucky that the Spearpoint looks like crap

I concur with all the OP's points. Though I suspect the command support abilities only require allies to be close at the time of casting, it is still going to be very hard to use, especially in Deathmatch where people are not normally clustered.

The offense command ability doesn't give anything amazing (everyone is already stacked for accuracy, and evasion is no longer the boogie man it once was).

 

 

Tensor field is useful at exactly one moment: the start of a Domination match, when you can hit all your team with it and then watch them zoom away from you. Any other time, there is no natural intersection of a group of allies being clustered and needing to get somewhere slightly faster. I could see it being used to mount a quick counter attack on an enemy sat, but that would require VOIP to time in an advantageous way.

 

So maybe there is a use in Domination, but I see no point in flying this in Deathmatch. It lacks the offensive and defensive power of a Sting, and it lacks the mobility that lets a Blackbolt do effective hit-and-fade.

 

I fear this fighter is going to cause more Imperial loses though, because less discerning pilots will use the Bloodmark simply because it is the coolest and most iconic looking Imperial ship. The Republic got lucky that the Spearpoint looks like crap.

 

Thank you for understanding and articulating my thoughts in a better way than I ever could have.

 

The part I underlined, will be the biggest problem. That's why this thing needs the option to be built with the mobility of the other scouts, and some teeth.

Edited March 5, 2014 by The_Raven_Lord

this is pretty much the point i was trying to get across in another thread on the same subject of the Bloodmark... as a support scout it is extremely limited because of the short range of its effects in comparison to it's reduced speed and maneuverability... which honestly makes zero sense in the ships design, considering the Bloodmark is packing 4 engines by default on the same frame as the Blackbolt you'd figure it to be faster... maybe they should swap the bodies of the Blackbolt & Bloodmark out so it makes aesthetic sense, considering Blackbolt is still the fastest ship on the field...

 

another gripe i have is with the lack of Rocket Pods, thus making it even slower, i hate anything having a lock-on time in a game this fast-paced, but that's a personal preference, i honestly believe Rocket Pods should be a choice on all ships... they really gotta get over this offering us 4 choices per part, as we see from the Bloodmark it leads down a path of useless mediocrity... it's like they threw all the stuff nobody (figuratively) uses into a single ship, hoping to see it get some use, but it's not likely to get used much because of the serious gimping to it's speed and maneuverability...

Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

it's like they threw all the stuff nobody (figuratively) uses into a single ship, hoping to see it get some use, but it's not likely to get used much because of the serious gimping to it's speed and maneuverability...

 

Interdiction Drive

Sensor Beacon

EMP Missles

Ion Missles

Thermite Torpedoes

 

To name a few examples, this is exactly what they did. They even gave the unused Comet Breaker / Dustmaker those Thermite Torps...

 

Though, the missile load out choice does give this thing the potential to fill a very useful combat role for the team which is otherwise neglected because Strike Fighters have much harder hitting missiles as options, so these choices tend to be neglected on those ships.

 

The Interdiction Drive doesn't get used on Bombers because the other choices Hyperspace beacon and the converter thingy are much more useful for the defensive role they're designed for, and the versatility role they can provide in Deathmatch.

 

Also, to reiterate what was said before...

 

Because the Bloodmark is the single most iconic Imperial ship. I'd even venture that it's THE SYMBOL OF STRENGTH FOR THE EMPIRE which has been put out there in all the media as the front line Imperial Fighter, it'll be chosen by many, if not most of the new players or the "I just want to get the daily done for credits and or XP" crowd who just want something cool to fly. Thus we'll end up flooded with toothless support ships in many matches and the already bad Imperial GSF experience will become even worse.

Edited March 5, 2014 by The_Raven_Lord

because less discerning pilots will use the Bloodmark simply because it is the coolest and most iconic looking Imperial ship.

*Raises hand*

I sort of think you are missing the point of this ship. It is clearly not meant to be flow like the other scouts.

 

 

First, you refer to barrel roll twice. One thing you should probably know is that barrel roll is going to have a 20 second cooldown on every ship that currently has it (currently that's 10). I sorta think this is a BIT of an overnerf, but only a bit- barrel roll most definitely needs to be weaker compared to the other engine components. I just wish they had given some of the other components a "cruise mode" or something that made crossing the map easier, or bribed them in other ways.

 

But, this isn't about 20 second barrel roll, 15 second koigran turn, or power dive staying at 10 seconds, all of which appear to be on the PTR. Just understand that someone picking barrel roll will be able to break missile breaks way less often- on live you have FOUR seconds to lock on to someone between barrel rolls, soon it will be FOURTEEN. So that guy is giving up a lot to cross the map boldly.

 

 

Neither of these ships has barrel roll, because neither is supposed to be as mobile as the straight fighter ships. I'm pretty sure that tensor field will actually help your team if used at a satellite or an impromptu fight on scaffolding on a TDM map, but who knows.

 

 

 

I will admit that while the scout doesn't excite me, the strike very much does. But both are meant to fly next to another "melee fighter", and either buff them or debuff the enemy. That could be a fundamentally weak role, in which case, I'll campaign for buffs. Or it could be a strong role that no one on live has so it's hard to guess how it will work out.

But both are meant to fly next to another "melee fighter", and either buff them or debuff the enemy. That could be a fundamentally weak role, in which case, I'll campaign for buffs. Or it could be a strong role that no one on live has so it's hard to guess how it will work out.

 

and this right here is the fundamental problem with these new scouts, how are they supposed to keep up and stay next to their wingmen to keep laying down the buffs/debuffs?.. it's gonna be a constant "too late to the party" situation... they will only be useful in domination matches to help hold a satellite...

Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

The Barrel Roll nerf is another topic entirely, and one I whole-hearty stand against, and there's a specific thread about it.

 

This thread is about the lackluster Bloodmark / Spearpoint and, as was raised previously, how potentially fatal it could be for the Imperial GSF experience to have the most iconic looking ship be the most lackluster and toothless.

 

I don't see the need for these support crafts. There's room in the line up for a new tier of Scout and Strike fighter. But relegating them to this highly situational and, I dare say, irrelevant support role, isn't going to be good for the game.

 

This Scout has:

 

The best look

No defense

No offense

No mobility

Support buffs which you'll be lucky to get off in any meaningful way, even if they increased the range to 10k and doubled their durations.

and this right here is the fundamental problem with these new scouts, how are they supposed to keep up and stay next to their wingmen to keep laying down the buffs/debuffs?.. it's gonna be a constant "too late to the party" situation... they will only be useful in domination matches to help hold a satellite...

 

^ This

 

And we already have a situation where people want to camp out at the first captured sat and turtle up. I've seen games where everyone on the Imperial team just rushed one satellite and stayed there for the duration of the game and when you ask them why they're not moving they respond "More medals if you just defend, we'll lose anyway."

 

Adding more ships dedicated to a defensive role won't be healthy for the game at all. We don't need Scouts and Strike Fighters doing a Bomber's Job, or having a Bomber's mobility for that matter.

Edited March 5, 2014 by The_Raven_Lord

Just had another thought.

 

Imagine when these things come out and everyone wants to try it or get it mastered.

 

Imagine if you will, the horror when the other team realizes that your side is fielding several Bloodmarks or Spearpoints.

 

It won't be pretty. And if you expect people in pugs to give a damn when you tell them to get other ships out, you're in for a very rude awakening.

 

You join a game hoping to try this thing out, lo and behold, your team is full of them.

 

Yeah... this isn't going to be pretty at all.

Overall, I agree. Although the idea of a support ship is good in theory, I simply don't think it will translate well in to the current GSF meta game. As was previously stated, it is likely that less educated pilots will fly the Bloodmark solely because of it's iconic look. I think it's easy to say that that won't go over well.

 

On the point of improving it, I think it's too late to completely change it's role as a "support" scout. Besides, that playstyle appeals to some, myself included. I think it would be best to make a few changes, allow it to go live, and tweak it from there, because I think we all know that the new ships probably won't get tested on the PTS. The few changes that I can think of are the following:

 

1) Increase the range of all buffs/debuff to 10,000m

2) Replace Thermite Torpedo with Rocket Pods (or reduce the lock on time of Thermite Torps, no one uses them currently and I don't like having useless components in the game)

3) Replace Indirection Drive with Retro Thrusters

 

Besides that, I can't think of any justifiable changes that would allow the Bloodmark to stay true to it's intended support role. Personally, I'm interested in flying this ship because, as I mentioned previously, I enjoy playing support roles, and I also enjoy a challenge. However if it goes live as-is, I may just have to resist flying her.

well, i can think of one more justifiable change and that would be an increase to it's base speed to be slightly higher than the Blackbolt/Stings base speed so it's not left so far behind the group... it will give it that extra speed it needs without taking away from the speed modifiers that the other two scouts have... this things biggest problem as a support scout is lack of speed and ability to stay with the group, it's practically not even a scout...

it's something less than...

Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

I'll probably have to actually try it and see, but I'm pretty sure a scout capable of moving 1100ish meters a second on normal thrusters for 24 seconds every minute isn't going to have that many problems keeping up with other ships. Edited March 5, 2014 by Bleeters

I'll probably have to actually try it and see, but I'm pretty sure a scout capable of moving 1100ish meters a second on normal thrusters for 24 seconds every minute isn't going to have that many problems keeping up with other ships.

 

maybe... the base speed of all 3 scouts is 780.0m/sec, that's the base speed, so what's it gonna do when it's entire wing goes Barrel Roll > Booster Recharge > Barrel Roll as soon as the buffs are applied... how's it gonna keep up then?.. in TDM it's not, and it's gonna arrive too late to reapply buffs to friendlies or debuff the enemy ships... ergo it's only use is in Domination... now i love Domination mode and will be using it there, it's just sad that it's gonna be completely useless in TDM as by time it arrives at the place of combat it will be too late... it's simply too slow to work as part of an organized wing and invalidates it as a support craft in that situation...

 

i suggest a new engine component, Afterburner, it works similar to Barrel Roll but without the roll and does not break lock but instead burns longer and a tad bit faster (allowing you to outrun missiles once it's at Mastered level)... and it fits the theme of the scout class...

Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

maybe... the base speed of all 3 scouts is 780.0m/sec, that's the base speed, so what's it gonna do when it's entire wing goes Barrel Roll > Booster Recharge > Barrel Roll as soon as the buffs are applied... how's it gonna keep up then

Three things.

 

One, not everyone even uses barrel roll. I don't use barrel roll on most ships.

Two, they're doubling the cooldown of it anyway. People won't be able to just roll - recharge - roll. Infact, given that my novadive can fit two barrel rolls in before arriving at a satelite right now, I'm going to assume come 2.7 (?) it'll be reduced to one. If Tensor Field is running, it makes a lot more sense to burn barrel roll at the last leg to finish the dinstance rather than straight away.

Three, as far as TDM is concerned? Apart from maybe snagging damage booster powerups, there's no specific need to rush out ahead of everyone else. Most of the time when I see people do this they're the first to die.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Bleeters

rushing ahead is not a concern, that's suicide... keeping up is the problem... if you fly in a team and they call A2 and you're all in D3, you're gonna be that last one to A2 by a long margin if you're in a Bloodmark, by time you get there the fight will be over... Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn

If I'm on the complete opposite side of the map to everyone else and I didn't just respawn, chances are I'm doing the whole 'support' thing wrong.

you missed the part where i said your entire wing was in D3 with you, you have to move to A2 as a team...

I see.

 

So, even though people are sticking together and moving over as a team and nobody is rushing ahead - say, with barrel roll - I'm going to be lagging behind everyone else anyway - even much slower ships like strike fighters - just because the support scout lacks barrel roll?

 

I just... my flashfire stopped using barrel roll a long time ago, and I've had no problems keeping up with the general jist of the fight in a TDM. Chasing down people who do have it, sure, but that's a dogfighting thing. I really think people are underestimating how mobile scouts are even without it.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Bleeters

i'm going under the supposition that as soon as the target area is called everyone will want to move there as fast as possible, that includes using engine abilities to get there as fast as possible, the Bloodmark just does not make the cut for flying in an organized wing, and will most likely be behind the main wing for the entire travel time, it can't cross the map as efficiently as the other scouts... it will hold back the rest of the wing by not having the same mobility... Edited March 5, 2014 by Elly_Dawn