drfirewater Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Exactly, once you're comphy with keybinding it all becomes muscle memory. And as I said in a previous post, while clicking you spend more time than you need staring at your spells. You lose so much awareness. You dont lose any aweness ... that is idiotic to think that. A good player has aweness of everything he does regardless of keybind or clicking. And Shift-ALT is much more motion intensive then clicking ... you actually go SLOWER using Shift ALT then you do clicking. again if your rotation includes more then 1-6 then your doing something horribly wrong. only class that dps rotation has more then 6 keys is MAYBE marauder or jug. Everything else is easily 6 keys only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The reason there are so many 'clickers' on SWTOR is Bioware has managed to alienate the hardcore crowd pretty much with slow content release, terrible class balance and generally just making one bad decision after another... people who insist on keybinding, etc are the hardcore players (like myself) but we are a rare and dying breed in this game. My guild is really struggling for instance to replace players who left because there aren't players on the server who are 'hardcore' material. So..... clickers aren't hardcore players? Is that what you're saying here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumuji Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 You underestimate how many peopole aren't confortable with pounding away on half the keyboard without looking. More so people like me in ther 30's or older and didn't grow up with a keyboard and lived their youth before the tech boom. You could train yourself sure but it would take months before you really felt comfortable with it. Anyways, it's easier to get a gaming mouse. On most of them you can bind 6-12 keys which should be enough for your most used abilies(ones that need a twitch reaction) Forget about binding things you wouldn't normally use killing trash in a flashpoint. You can click on the seldom used stuff without losing anything of significance. Use the mouse to turn and look. Make A and D strafe left and right. You shouldn't use the keyboard to turn your character which makes a big difference in PvP. Remove backpeddle totally. You shouldn't find yourself walking backwards. Use that key for something important since you're used to hitting it. Well, some simple things that might help out without having to keybind everything which is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Exactly, once you're comphy with keybinding it all becomes muscle memory. And as I said in a previous post, while clicking you spend more time than you need staring at your spells. You lose so much awareness. Not true. Someone who is really used to his mouse won't look at the cursor, he incounsciously knows where the cursor is. It's the same kind of muscle memory. Someone who has to look where he put the cursor, will probably have to look where he puts his finger on the keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josewales Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) PvP leaderboards are led by macros & superior latency. Even raid dps races. Funny how 99% of the self proclaimed pros confuse this and having pocket heals with skill. Nothing wrong with clicking in this game due to slow GCs & energy burns. But I would still get a good gaming mouse anyways...takes half the muscle memory out of it and more relaxing. Helps with focusing on the environment in pvp also. Plus for those with big hands such as myself, stumbling through a dozen keybinds on the board is a handicap for us. Now for cyborg to master the game claw since they got the mouse ftw now! Edited January 25, 2013 by Josewales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchingFiber Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 OR you could get over it and realize that in this game there's no reason to try to force a keybinding mentality on the population as a whole. Which is exactly what you're attempting to do here. I know plenty of folks who do fantastically by being clickers, to the point where they are successfully clearing everything. They don't PvP, so that whole business is irrelevant. If you've got certain folks you know who are clickers and are suboptimally performing, maybe speak to them directly. Not going to turn this in a PvE vs PvP rampage. In no way am I trying to force anyone to do anything, plus if I were how could I possibly do that by typing in a forum? Click if you wan't, but people who can't successfully keybind and really click everything are just missing out on the potential they could possibly have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Yes, it does. If you're looking at your action bar instead of the circles under your feet you're doing it wrong. No, it doesn't. I've cleared all content in this game and am working on HM TFB at the moment,so i must be terrible because I'm a clicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchingFiber Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 You dont lose any aweness ... that is idiotic to think that. A good player has aweness of everything he does regardless of keybind or clicking. And Shift-ALT is much more motion intensive then clicking ... you actually go SLOWER using Shift ALT then you do clicking. again if your rotation includes more then 1-6 then your doing something horribly wrong. only class that dps rotation has more then 6 keys is MAYBE marauder or jug. Everything else is easily 6 keys only lol you use your pinky for shift. It's right next to it, how in the world do you go slow like that? Using alt....your thumb is already on the spacebar, it's right next to it also. If you lose time using that, stay with clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsheraII Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The reason there are so many 'clickers' on SWTOR is Bioware has managed to alienate the hardcore crowd pretty much with slow content release, terrible class balance and generally just making one bad decision after another... people who insist on keybinding, etc are the hardcore players (like myself) but we are a rare and dying breed in this game. My guild is really struggling for instance to replace players who left because there aren't players on the server who are 'hardcore' material. And just to add fuel to the fire people clicking generally will do less dps, on my gunslinger if I click moves instead of using keybinds I do 300-400 less dps in dirty fighting spec. Soooo you're basically saying you can't hit the right icon within 1.5 seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josewales Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) So..... clickers aren't hardcore players? Is that what you're saying here? Hardcores who dont click would make great receptionists! I would hire one them come with pretty:P Edited January 25, 2013 by Josewales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durban_Monkey Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Real Gamers use a Naga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfirewater Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The reason there are so many 'clickers' on SWTOR is Bioware has managed to alienate the hardcore crowd pretty much with slow content release, terrible class balance and generally just making one bad decision after another... people who insist on keybinding, etc are the hardcore players (like myself) but we are a rare and dying breed in this game. My guild is really struggling for instance to replace players who left because there aren't players on the server who are 'hardcore' material. And just to add fuel to the fire people clicking generally will do less dps, on my gunslinger if I click moves instead of using keybinds I do 300-400 less dps in dirty fighting spec. That is BS i am a very hardcore player ... I raid 1-2 times a day EVERY DAY ... i pvp in my off time ....I click and maintain between 1750-2000 dps on my sniper and merc and 1700-1800 on my sorc (got that nerf to sorcs suck that is why i pretty much only heal on her now). I have never been a KEYBINDER or a full time clicker. as i said 1-6 if your using more then that your binding useless things that shouldnt be in your rotation anyway. everything else is easily clicked with a 1 second queue through channeling. If your gonna blast people for clicking at least know what the hell your talking about. Its all about TIMING and AWARENESS .... and both are EASY to do with either ... the best players DO BOTH CLICKING AND KEYBINDING and dont rely on just one or the other method for quickest responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfirewater Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 lol you use your pinky for shift. It's right next to it, how in the world do you go slow like that? Using alt....your thumb is already on the spacebar, it's right next to it also. If you lose time using that, stay with clicking. then your taking your fingers off your movement keys and squishing your hand for no reason. As i said its much harder to do that then just clickign the power and if you need mroe then 1-6 your not top end dps anyway so click or bind all you want your still not leet like your acting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooloi Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Keybinding is a consequence of using mouse movement. Mouse movement is more efficient and particularly for melee in pvp provides a serious advantage over keyboard turning. If you are using mouse movement, then you can continuously move around people who are trying to keyboard turn and click while you are spamming some number of keybinds, getting behind them. Some people don't realize that while in PvE if you run behind something and then click it will still allow you to attack the creature without turning to face them, but in PvP you must be facing them. Anyone who can move out of the angle of your range of attack and keep moving can hit you constantly while you're trying to adjust and even 1-3 global cooldowns can mean you're dead and they're not. Step one is to stop using left and right turns and only use left and right strafe. Step two is to not use the back-up key for movement in pvp. Step 3 is to starting using the mouse to move forward (you can click both right and left buttons simultaneously to move foward. Step 4 is to keybind some essential melee skills to keys that you can easily hit while you are moving around them. The idea of starting a new character and learning to run around someone in a tight circle while hitting even a few basic keybound keys is a good one. How much you keybind after that is up to an individual's skill and reflexes. I click, mostly, always have. In PvE it doesn't really matter in this game. In PvP, if you are melee it becomes essential when you are playing against so many people who do use mouse movement and keybinding, unless you just like to lose. I myself have a new character where I'm learning all this. My ranged characters in PvP have allowed me to be accepted amongst those of my peers who are better than I, but my melee post 50pvp toon is pretty awful and it impacts my dps and my ability to support my team. Being open to new concepts and improvements in your play is a good thing. Sure, it's "just" a game, but it's fun to be competent, and allows most people to have a better time while they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jholiday Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I'm both I have 4 50's 3 of them are BIS PVP and PVE I keybind 12 abilities on my Razor Naga I keybind targeting + Consumables + Interrupts on my Razor Nostromo I click CD's , Shields , Self Heals , Some CC's , some Aoe 's Mainly I'm Keybound but there are a couple things I still like clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthharrington Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 So..... clickers aren't hardcore players? Is that what you're saying here? Good PvE players don't click (unless you are a healer and clicking the ops frame). 6 button rotation can be done on 1 - 6 with aoe/circumstancial moves on things like Q, E, T, F, G, etc and it increases your speed because you press the button as soon as it's off cd, having to move the mouse over and clicking will cost you 0.25-0.5 seconds, now if you are on an 8 minute boss fight imagine how much of that time is wasted finding a button and clicking it? You may be fast at clicking but you still have to move the cursor over the spell, etc if the fight is short it won't make much difference but on a longer fight where dps is tight (Firebrand and Stormcaller Nightmare for instance) you will cost yourself a good few hundred dps, if every dps does that you will be about 800 dps down so you will cause a wipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eztro Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 This reminds me of the old threads (in other unnamed games) about keyboard turners. omg I mouseturn! Noes you should kbturn! Noes you should have a gamepad to turn! Really? People play how they like, get frustrated either way and complain about it regardless. Your method is not better for me or them, just like my method is not better for you. So get over yourself and go back to playing... how you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchingFiber Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Keybinding is a consequence of using mouse movement. Mouse movement is more efficient and particularly for melee in pvp provides a serious advantage over keyboard turning. If you are using mouse movement, then you can continuously move around people who are trying to keyboard turn and click while you are spamming some number of keybinds, getting behind them. Some people don't realize that while in PvE if you run behind something and then click it will still allow you to attack the creature without turning to face them, but in PvP you must be facing them. Anyone who can move out of the angle of your range of attack and keep moving can hit you constantly while you're trying to adjust and even 1-3 global cooldowns can mean you're dead and they're not. Step one is to stop using left and right turns and only use left and right strafe. Step two is to not use the back-up key for movement in pvp. Step 3 is to starting using the mouse to move forward (you can click both right and left buttons simultaneously to move foward. Step 4 is to keybind some essential melee skills to keys that you can easily hit while you are moving around them. The idea of starting a new character and learning to run around someone in a tight circle while hitting even a few basic keybound keys is a good one. How much you keybind after that is up to an individual's skill and reflexes. I click, mostly, always have. In PvE it doesn't really matter in this game. In PvP, if you are melee it becomes essential when you are playing against so many people who do use mouse movement and keybinding, unless you just like to lose. I myself have a new character where I'm learning all this. My ranged characters in PvP have allowed me to be accepted amongst those of my peers who are better than I, but my melee post 50pvp toon is pretty awful and it impacts my dps and my ability to support my team. Being open to new concepts and improvements in your play is a good thing. Sure, it's "just" a game, but it's fun to be competent, and allows most people to have a better time while they play. What a great post, glad to see a clicker actually post something other than rage and actually well explained thought out post, with many great points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josewales Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Melees need keybinds. Dancing with bunny hoppers needs your eyes on the target. But static casters can click away easy. So ya there is advantage for some class types. BW needs to adopt macros like Rift has. Where 3 or 4 keys is all your need to utilize rotations and CDs. For now people who can afford $100 gaming mice has an advantage over some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Good PvE players don't click (unless you are a healer and clicking the ops frame). 6 button rotation can be done on 1 - 6 with aoe/circumstancial moves on things like Q, E, T, F, G, etc and it increases your speed because you press the button as soon as it's off cd, having to move the mouse over and clicking will cost you 0.25-0.5 seconds, now if you are on an 8 minute boss fight imagine how much of that time is wasted finding a button and clicking it? You may be fast at clicking but you still have to move the cursor over the spell, etc if the fight is short it won't make much difference but on a longer fight where dps is tight (Firebrand and Stormcaller Nightmare for instance) you will cost yourself a good few hundred dps, if every dps does that you will be about 800 dps down so you will cause a wipe. This applies only if you ride the short bus to school. I have no issues clicking, and using my 1-7 keys with my hand on my Ahhihilation Marauder. This game isn't hard. It's all about situational awareness and multitasking, keybinding vs clicking in this game from a pve aspect is a moot point. If you can't be aware of your surroundings while clicking, then it's the keybinders who are inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DataBeaver Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Yes, it does. If you're looking at your action bar instead of the circles under your feet you're doing it wrong. Unfortunately the action bar is the only place where you can see your ability cooldowns. And then there's the buff and debuff icons above the health bars. Personally, I use keybinds everywhere, not just in games. In SW:TOR I've bound my movement keys to ESDF (WR for strafe) and primary quickbar to ZAQ123456TGB. Secondary quickbar is those same keys with shift, and third one uses alt. I also have slots 5-12 from the third quickbar bound to the forward and back buttons on the side of my mouse with various modifiers. This gives me a total of 36 abilities within easy reach. I don't have anything against clickers either. If you click and are happy with it, fine. However, OP mentioned clickers who complain about their bad performance; those people should give keybinding a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchingFiber Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 However, OP mentioned clickers who complain about their bad performance; those people should give keybinding a try. So glad someone actually read the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Good PvE players don't click (unless you are a healer and clicking the ops frame). 6 button rotation can be done on 1 - 6 with aoe/circumstancial moves on things like Q, E, T, F, G, etc and it increases your speed because you press the button as soon as it's off cd, having to move the mouse over and clicking will cost you 0.25-0.5 seconds, now if you are on an 8 minute boss fight imagine how much of that time is wasted finding a button and clicking it? Even if a clicker would need 0.5s between each click and a keybinder only 0.2s between each tap, does it matter when you have 1.5s to do it ? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazawi Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) We need to take a stand in the battle against the clickers! FEEL THE POWER OF MY 39 KEYBINDS! ROAR! No but really. I am so used to having keybinds that the thought of clicking is repulsive. I have also been trying to "convert" people over to the "good side" but to no avail. Most clickers I know say "well, the game is so simple and clicking won't really matter. Once my performance lacks because of clicking I will try to change" and this is the major problem that we are facing. Not the clickers themselves, but the game's acceptance of clicking. Take Tera for instance; try clicking there. It will not work. You will not even be able to kill a level 5 mob if you're clicking. In this game you can kill the Terror from Beyond on HM as a clicker with no issues (in my raid team AT LEAST half of the team are clickers and we can clear end-game content. They also pvp to good - if not great - success). Fix the game, then try to fix the players. As it is now they have the highground: there is no benefit to keybinding other than personal preference. EDIT: If you are clicking and then complaining about poor performance and then have the audacity to not at least TRY to improve yourself by using keybinding (or understanding that you will never be a good sorcerer if you only use lightning >.>)... I rest my case. Continue. Edited January 25, 2013 by Kazawi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwitchingFiber Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 We need to take a stand in the battle against the clickers! FEEL THE POWER OF MY 39 KEYBINDS! ROAR! No but really. I am so used to having keybinds that the thought of clicking is repulsive. I have also been trying to "convert" people over to the "good side" but to no avail. Most clickers I know say "well, the game is so simple and clicking won't really matter. Once my performance lacks because of clicking I will try to change" and this is the major problem that we are facing. Not the clickers themselves, but the game's acceptance of clicking. Take Tera for instance; try clicking there. It will not work. You will not even be able to kill a level 5 mob if you're clicking. In this game you can kill the Terror from Beyond on HM as a clicker with no issues (in my raid team AT LEAST half of the team are clickers and we can clear end-game content. They also pvp to good - if not great - success). Fix the game, then try to fix the players. As it is now they have the highground: there is no benefit to keybinding other than personal preference. Continue. I'm not trying to convert people, if you think you do amazing as a clicker, click on. But to the clickers that were complaining about constantly getting outplayed and such, what's it going to hurt to try something else to help your playstyle and help you get better at a game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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